RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

I don't know where all you guys are hunting that say you see these huge strings of does with the occasional spike thrown in.I've killed 20 bucks in the past 22 years and only two where spikes.Every deer that I kill is always layered with fat.Rarely do I see a mature doe without twins.I can't remember one year when I wasn't hunting after at least one buck that was at least 120 inches.

Take dd's challenge and find one piece of evidence that says the adult b/d ratio is any worse than 1/2.1..You can't because there is no evidence.Even Alt supporter and qdm master Kip Adams, proved that even if every antlered deer was killed each year,the worse the b/d ratio could get is 1/3.

Regardless of these fact,I'm still glad ar was implemented for purely selfish reasons.I don't shoot sub ar bucks so I'm glad others are forced to pass as well.Furthermore,I detest guys shooting at running deer and snap shooting as soon as they see horns.I believe ar forced many to slow down.Other than that,it's impossible for any of Alt's claims to come true if his deer density goals are met.He's set goals that are at least 50% less than what the habitat can support.Like dd stated,no value is placed on farm or edge habitat.Pretty ridiculous to leave that out considering deer are creatures of the edge.I guess Alt was too busy following Byron Shissler and Cindy Dunn around to hear that as they searched for trillium.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how the herd hasn't been reduced when Alt claimed we had an 8% reduction in 2001 followed by two of the biggest antlerless harvests in history.Will someone please explain this too me.Alt won't answer it.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

i truely think so.......took me 4 years to see a buck......and its not bad hunting.....there were days wed see 20 deer a morning and not one carried antlers.....we see tons of deer each season......just never anything with a rack....this year i changed my hunting methods and seen more bucks.....but still lots of does...im doing my job....i took 2 does this year.....and im happy.....next year i want to take a doe in oct with the flinter.....then buck hunt till late flinter season......cant wait.......first year where i have to count to....what....i guess its 4 here......i hope i can count that high............

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

I consider myself a fairly intelligent and educated person but to be honest, deaddeer's number just seem a bit confusing to me.

For example, if antler restrictions reduced the number of 1.5 year old bucks harvested because they had sub-legal racks then would that not mean that the majority of bucks taken since antler restrictions were instituted were over 1.5 years of age? If that is the case then didn't the 2.5 year old buck harvest go up, and not down, after antler restrictions were instituted?

Second, deaddeer, where did you come from? I say that sincerely as I do not remember you posting much prior to the past few months. Did you stumble onto this site from somewhere else or were you what we call a "lurker" who just decided to air his views? Again, I am genuinely curious.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

That is a very common misconception of those that support AR. In 2002 we carried over 80K buck. Due to normal adult mortality we lost 18% leaving 66K 2.5+ PS ( preseason buck) . At least 20 % of of the 66K won't be AR legal so that leaves 53K PS 2.5+ buck to be harvested in 2003. Now loooking at the 1.5's, we had around 180K PS 1.5 buck and if we harvested 50%, the 1.5 harvest would be 90K. Add the 1.5 harvest of 90K to the 2.5+ harvest of 53K and you get a harvest of 143 K which is real close to the actual 2003 harvest.

A friend of mine told me about the site a few months ago ,so I decided to check it out. No ,I have not been lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

I think the problem that I am having is that I am assuming (yeah, I know what it spells) that a significant majority of the 1.5 year old bucks will not be AR legal while a significant majority of the 2.5 year old bucks would be legal.

So, if we don't harvest some of the 1.5 year old bucks the first year that antler restrictions are instituted then would there not be more 2.5 year old bucks or older to harvest the following season?

The reason I asked about your appearance on the forums is that we always seem to have a bunch of Alt supporters who visit this forum and yet only one "anti-Alt" (for lack of a better term) person at a time. It was just curiousity as I always am seeking to find patterns that are not always there.:)

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

Oh no, there's at least two.[:'(]

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

You assumption would almost be valid if we had a 4 pt. rule statewide. But the problem with that is we wuld save around 80 +% of the 1.5's ,but we would also save 56% of the 2.5's,so harvests would crash and we would have to cut the doe herd even more.


Another fact that many AR supporters overlook is that just prior to the implementation of AR we were carrying over 80 K buck and those buck were randomly selected so more big older buck survived prior to AR, since many hunters harvested spikes and Y's. With Ar we shifted the pressure to the larger ,older buck ,so fewer will survive and the majority that do survive will be buck that weren't AR legal as 2.5 buck.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

In my opinion, the biggest advantage of ARs is what was mentioned in an earlier post. I never thought of this, but he is correct. ARs slowed hunters down. No more pop shots at running deer and probably a lot less wounding deer. If anything come good from ARs, I believe it will be this. Since ARs are a good thing now, I am proposing we do the same with turkeys. Let's call it BRs (beard restrictions). No more shooting of turkeys w/o at least a 6 inch beard and cull down the hen population.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

So you are saying we should not shoot at moving deer? Then just how do you expect us to reduce the herd ? Can you guarantee that over 550K deer will stand still long enough for hunters to harvest them? It hasn't happened in the last 3 years ,so why will it happen in the future?

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

DD,this is a whole other arguement, but no we shouldn't be shooting at running deer.

I'm actually not anti pgc.I support most of their programs and give them alot of credit.I do think Alt's motives are somewhere else other than with the sportsman however.If Alt is so great,and his mangement plan is so sound,please just explain 3 things to me.First,for about the tenth time,how has the herd not been reduced when we had 2 record antlerless harvests following an 8 percent reduction in 2001?Second,how can we have more and bigger bucks once the herd gets reduced to below his goal 15 dpsm?Why isn't the habitat recovering in Cameron county even though that county has been below it's deer density goal for ten years?These are all legitimate questions that Alt has not answered.