RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

If you think a 1:2 B/D ratio is crazy, maybe you can explain how in 2001 ,with an over wintering herd of 1 M , we havested 203K buck and carried over an additional 80 K for a preseason total of 283K buck. That means there were less than 717 K preseason adult doe so the max. B/D ratio would have been 1:2.5.

We have not heavily protected doe in PA and the fact that we are maintaining a 1:2 B/D ratio means we are harvesting buck and doe in the proper proportion. We have one of the most productive herds in the nation and there is nothing wrong with our breeding rates or recruitment.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

Let me say that I did not follow our deer management program as intensely prior to Dr. Alt so I cannot really comment on whether or not I thought it needed to change. I will say that I do like having the opportunity to harvest more than one deer...and more than one doe if the opportunity presents itself.

I was not very fond of the "one deer of either sex and your done" regulation that was going for awhile. Nor was I happy when we went from having bonus tags to not having bonus tags. Now, how either of that affected the deer herd is beyond me so I cannot comment further.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

I have been following this thread for awhile and read your posts and I am pretty sure you are thoroughly convinced that Alt is doing a horrible job. If you and others that share your view like shooting tiny spikes every year and having one day ayear to kill a doe then maybe you should be rewarded and have the regs turned back to the way you like them. I would rather spend a week in the woods and see one big mature buck 3 1/2 years or older then see 300 does parading past my stand. My first deer was a spike in PA and proud of it but if that were the biggest deer I could harvest I would give up hunting.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

In 2001 ,before any bucks were saved by AR we shot 52.6K 2.5 + buck. Although they didn't release a breakdown of this years harvest,since we only harvested 142K buck , I can guarantee you we didn't harvest 52.6K 2.5 + buck. Therefore ,AR reduced the number of 2.5+ buck harvested rather than increasing that number.

Before 1989 we were allowed only one deer /yr. because that is the largest harvest the herd could sustain . The OW herd was the same in 1987 as it was in 1997 so the harvests during that period matched the number of fawns recruited. The number of 3.5 bucks will not increase significantly since we are harvesting more of our buck as BB and we are harvesting 66% of our 2.5 buck according to the antlered buck study.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

The question is what percentage of bucks being harvested are now in the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old age class. Not how many-what percentage, and what will that percentage be as the dynamics of the herds population continues to be studied, and management practices change accordingly. I do encourage everyone to do more than just read DD's snippets from the PGC website- visit the site yourself and do a bit of exploring. There is a wealth of information on their about the deer program for those who would like to know what studies are being done, what the early results are and so forth. I think you will all be suprised at how much information available there. Juniorpc.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

The percentage may be important to you ,but the absolute number of 2.5+ buck is what is important to the hunter. In 2002 before any buck were saved by AR, 32 % of the 165K buck that were harvested were 2.5+. If 32% of the buck harvested in 2003 were 2.5+ we would have harvested 45K 2.5 + buck ,compared to 52.6 K in 2002. In order to match the 2002 harvest the percentage of 2.5+ buck would have to increase to 37%, ,but that would mean we harvested less than 90K 1.5 buck and that would be more bad news.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

Gotta give you credit DD. You are the Energizer Bunny! You just keep going and going with endless numbers and statistics mostly taken out of context but occasionally from thin air.

Just for a moment guys,

Who else here thinks we have a 1:2 BD ratio anywhere in this state?

How many here, other than DD, really believe that we can't expect to slowly increase the average age of the breeding bucks over time with AR. (what Alt said was truly the goal. He cited opportunities to shoot bigger racks as a welcome by-product)

So, we can be a little patient while a professional irons out the bugs in a program that started out with generally good goals and admittedly less than perfect solutions. Or we can listen to the "Spin Doctors" and go back to the way it was.

Remember guys, we're only two seasons into AR and one of those was a very unusual weather

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

Since you don't believe the B/D ratio is 1:2.1 ,here is a little challenge for you. See if you can find a link to any article , PGC news release or PGN article that says the B/D ratio is greater than 1:2.1. If you can't do that ,then explain how we harvested 203K buck in 2001 and carried over 80K, if the B/D ratio was greater than 1:2.5 If you can't do that then explain how we can have a B/D ratio of greater tan 1: 2.1 if 91% of our adult doe are bred and prouce 1.8 fawns /doe.

After five years of AR in Mich. they harvested one more 4.5+ buck than they did in the first year . The harvest of 2.5 buck was 5 fewer than the first year of AR. That is why AR is going to be repealed in Mich.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

For the fourth year in a row, I've went to a Charlie Alsheimer presentation on QDM. I am impressed with some of his deer research. Some key ingredients for QDM are to balance the doe herd, pass up younger bucks (similiar to what PA is doing). More importantly, creating food plots to improve the nutritional balancing of the herd and providing sanctuaries (where no one hunts or even enters) for deer. Other than scaring hunters away, is the PGC creating sanctuaries and food plots on all of the SGLs? My opinion is if you don't go 100%, you're wasting your time. I am also the same person who said previously, and I will say it again, "I WOULD RATHER SHOOT A BUCK, ANY BUCK, THAN A DOE." If all I could shoot was a doe, I would quit deer hunting and do more bird hunting and winter fishing. I'm not against shooting does, it just isn't for me. Last year, in PA, I shot a large doe. As I was field dressing her, her two fawns came within 10 yards of me. I scared them off. In about 10 minutes, they came back. Later that day, I saw one of them walking the track of the doe that I shot, the fawn was bleating. I've been hunting deer for several years, this will be the last doe that I shoot that has fawns with it. I'm leaving that chore to bigger "Men" than me. I will continue hunting PA, and hope to shoot a big monster buck because of AR. Just keep in mind, how many adult bucks did you kill before ARs? In 5 more years, ask yourself this same question. ARs are the rules, I passed up 3 bucks last year, I was careful not to shoot an illegal buck eventhough I know for a fact I could've gotten away with it. Above all, I will play by the rules of the land. Out.

RE: Did PA's deer managment need to change?
 

And he keeps going[:'(] and going[:'(] and going[:'(]!!!!![:'(]