RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I don't understand how someone can say that less deer harvested = less deer in the woods? If this was the only thing to be taken into consideration when determining herd size then I guess our herd would change every day depending on how many deer were shot that day. Did you ever take into consideration that the majority of Pa hunters are weekend warriors who use to go out the first weekend and hunt for 3 hours and blast the first 50 lb dink that walked by. Now with AR these same hunters are passing on the dinks and giving up after a few hours of not seeing anything. So for every hunter that passes on a spike it is one less deer killed (hence 1 more deer in the herd) and 1 less deer to tally to the deer kill total. As a result the deer kill goes down and the buck population increases. If you would look at studies that were done you would see that the number of mature buck has drastically increased since AR has been put in place. Over the past three years 2,023 deer were trapped, tagged and radioed of which 551 were bucks. that's less than a 4:1 ratio of buck to doe. Thats pretty darn good considering 5 years ago you would have seen 20 doe before you saw anything with horns. But then again I keep forgetting most people don't actually want to hunt, they want to spend 2 hours in the woods the first day and blast their dink. And heaven forbid we should deprive them of that majestic overgrown rabbit and make them take a 130 pound doe as a consolation prize. I know I for one would be so much prouder of a deer that can fit in my game bag. Bottom line is if you get your panties in a bunch over shooting an adult doe over a 40lb spike then maybe you should take up rabbit hunting, heck you can shoot 4 of them a day and you can't get much smaller than that.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Bearklr, your membership in the AR team has been accepted. Congrats!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Bears an uncanny similarity to the trout opener, does it not?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

yes it must be just you. Because everyone else realizes that before AR/HR there was nothing requiring you to shoot your version of an inferior buck. ;) You could wait until your little heart was content to shoot your trophy. No body was stopping you.

Prior to AR/HR and you actually had a greater chance of seeing a buck you would feel "up to your wannabe standards" because there were more bucks availble for you hard hunters. (note the harvest #'s before and after AR was implemented)

Now though, choice has been taken away and we cannot decide for ourselves, we must turnover our freedom of choice to career bureaucrats in harrisburg. And as we know that is always a good thing?[:-]

So now after we work on herd reductions you will actually have less bucks to shoot, less deer to see ( and we all know we like seeing deer in the woods)

So what you are saying livbucks is a nice soundbite, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If you truly didn't like spikes or forkies, then you could have waited like a good wannabe for your trophy before AR. Or didn't you have the gumption to do so?

Now you are stuck with less deer and less bucks overall and no matter how your slice dice or chop that, it still means less deer = less deer. And if you take it a step further, if pa doesn't get its herd reduced soon you won't have "more and better habitat" in order to grow your bigger bucks that you dream of for the future!

sort of makes it a lose - lose right now in pa, Don't it...

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

<==bearklr

I got a chuckle from this. yes, actually our herd size DOES change everyday depending on how many deer you kill hehehe.... (as a review 10 minus 2 equals 8... ok?)


and yes it is our PGC biologists who DO USE harvest to calculate herd size. So I would say that is pretty reliable source for asking about deer issues. Dr. Rosenberry surely must know what HE is saying.......?

"By Dr. Christopher S. Rosenberry - PGC Wildlife Biometrician
How many deer live in Pennsylvania? How many deer do hunters harvest each year? These two questions generate a lot of discussion among hunters and nonhunters alike. Biologists, farmers, motorists and countless others wonder about these questions. Unfortunately, estimating deer populations and harvests is not simple, nor without controversy. Each year the Game Commission calculates deer harvests, and then from these, population estimates.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=465&q=151378


So yes, right on our PGC website they clearly spell out for you that harvest IS an indicator of herd size overall....


any other questions?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

If these anti Alt boys spent as much time scouting and hunting as they do b*tching about Alt they might actually see some some more deer...;) I talked to a couple PA hunters last night, they commented they dont shoot a buck every year like they used to, but when they do now they are bigger, more quality bucks. You guys who dont like Alt sent him down my way, they put his system into place in MD and we will be the IL and IA of the east coast. Bearklr your argument makes sense, I've seen the bucks you have, looking at that I dont know how you can argue against AR.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I do wait, as a matter of fact I am still waiting. I passed on (before AR) legal 1.5 bucks almost every day I hunted. Last year I passed on a couple LEGAL bucks in archery. They were not mature enough for me. I have not taken a buck of any kind in about 9 years! I have had the chance every year to fill my tag, but chose not to because of immature bucks. How many of those 1.5 bucks survived the seasons before AR? Seems like a waste of a hunting resource to whack them as dinks, does it not. Allowing a good percentage to survive so that they make hunting an actual challenge seems like a good thing for hunting, does it not? I hunt an average of 150 hours (in the actual woods) a year not including pre-season scouting. With all the effort I put into it, I still will not shoot a dink this year (even a legal one). This year will mark a decade of effort for a truly mature animal, I do not think you are in a position to challenge my dedication, sir. I must add that last year I had my chance and blew it on a 11 point true monster bow buck (160 class), my problem though. I don't blame the GC, just myself. Then again, it was the experience alone that made the hunt a success, one I will never forget. So I guess I actually thank the GC.

Just a side note: I enjoy trout fishing every year. I like to come back to the streams during the week, after all the trout are " gone", and spend evenings working the stream, You would be surprised at how many I catch after the stream has been "fished out" by the Saturday morning grab and go crowd. But then again, even if I did not catch any, I would still enjoy the experience, the chase, the search, THE "HUNT".

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

....and if Jr Alties spent more time reading about herd dynamics they would realize they can't have thier cake and eat it too! :D

No need for bad language, you can still make your point and stay on the high road. I do. [:-]

Now back to the harvest and herd size. In pa the harvest and total herd size are linked because we have a steady view of our hunter success rates over 10- 20 years. Sure other factors go into the model but in general the bigger your herd the bigger your harvest. And conversely the smaller your herd the smaller your harvest.

its what allows Brett Wallingford to make predictions like this one;

""There were about 1.5 million deer prior to the start of archery season," said Bret Wallingford, PGC biologist. "While it is too early to estimate the early muzzleloader season harvest, based on previous archery season harvest reports, we expect that bowhunters will have removed about 75,000 deer from the population before the start of the rifle season. "

Unless he would change the success rate (for example rifle to shotgun only) then it would change the estimates. hunters are still just as successfull in pa they just take more does and less bucks.

As HappyHunter so skillfully has pointed out the real test is whther we reduce the OW herd size. If that happens we are reducing the overall herd.

Now here is a simplified chart for Jr Alties to review. it will help remind them they can't have thier cake and eat it too.

Table 1. Deer Harvest Guide
If the number of bucks harvested on your land is: 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20
and you want your deer herd to: then harvest this many antlerless deer:
increase rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NONE
increase slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....................1 3 5 6 8 10 11 13 14 16
maintain present level . . . . . . . . . . ....................2 5 7 10 12 15 17 19 22 24
decrease slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ......................6 8 11 14 17 20 22 25 28
decrease rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .......................7 10 13 16 19 23 26 29 32


to get bigger bucks, you have to reduce herd size to get better habitat an reduce stress. If our herd is as "big as ever", then nobody could see just as many bucks AND have them be bigger. You could have less bucks, and they could be bigger, but it would work better if everyone were following AR and not just a portion of the population. As it is we have watered down version of AR/HR that hasn't produced much yet.

....other than wishfull thinking that is.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Livbucks,
I admire your patience and dedication. I have more respect for a hunter who doesnt kill a deer for 9 years waiting for a moster than I do for a hunter that kills a dink 9 years in a row. Little bucks are not hard to find or kill, I have been bow hunting for a week since our opener and have passed shots at 5 little bucks. Sometimes its hard eating that tag soup, but when all that waiting pays off and you get the big buck your after it will be that much more rewarding.

As for PA trout...I dont even hit the opener anymore, I wait a couple weeks and fish during the week like you do. Its amazing how may trout you can catch in a stream that has been "fished out" by the weekend warriors.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

....and if Jr Alties spent more time reading about herd dynamics they would realize they can't have thier cake and eat it too! :D

No need for bad language, you can still make your point and stay on the high road. I do. [:-]

Now back to the harvest and herd size. In pa the harvest and total herd size are linked because we have a steady view of our hunter success rates over 10- 20 years. Sure other factors go into the model but in general the bigger your herd the bigger your harvest. And conversely the smaller your herd the smaller your harvest.

its what allows Brett Wallingford to make predictions like this one;

""There were about 1.5 million deer prior to the start of archery season," said Bret Wallingford, PGC biologist. "While it is too early to estimate the early muzzleloader season harvest, based on previous archery season harvest reports, we expect that bowhunters will have removed about 75,000 deer from the population before the start of the rifle season. "

Unless he would change the success rate (for example rifle to shotgun only) then it would change the estimates. hunters are still just as successfull in pa they just take more does and less bucks.

As HappyHunter so skillfully has pointed out the real test is whther we reduce the OW herd size. If that happens we are reducing the overall herd.

Now here is a simplified chart for Jr Alties to review. it will help remind them they can't have thier cake and eat it too.

Table 1. Deer Harvest Guide
If the number of bucks harvested on your land is: 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20
and you want your deer herd to: then harvest this many antlerless deer:
increase rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NONE
increase slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....................1 3 5 6 8 10 11 13 14 16
maintain present level . . . . . . . . . . .................2 5 7 10 12 15 17 19 22 24
decrease slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...................6 8 11 14 17 20 22 25 28
decrease rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...................7 10 13 16 19 23 26 29 32


to get bigger bucks, you have to reduce herd size to get better habitat an reduce stress. If our herd is as "big as ever", then nobody could see just as many bucks AND have them be bigger. You could have less bucks, and they could be bigger, but it would work better if everyone were following AR and not just a portion of the population. As it is we have watered down version of AR/HR that hasn't produced much yet.

....other than wishfull thinking that is.


compare the chart above to a county in pa like Centre county.
2970 antlered deer harvested to 6560 antlerless deer harvested. Now run your finger over the chart to a place where you are harvesting more than twice as many antlerless as antlered and what does the corresponding title say?? Lets do it together....

pick 20 antlered deer harvested and then go down the chart to the max for does which 32 (not even twice as much) and what does the corresponding chart heading say?

"decrease rapidly" hmmmmmm....