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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Would it be fair to say that insurance companies will make sure they charge consumers for any possible claim? We all pay lots for our auto insurance because auto accidents occur frequently. If you open a fireworks factory you can rest assured that you're gonna pay a lot for fire insurance.
There is a reason that farms and vacant land is very cheap to insure for L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y.... because claims dont happen very often on them. When some bloodsucking leech can manage to get a multi-million dollar settlement for some old lady that spilled hot McDonalds coffee on her lap, we all tend to get gunshy about liability. In the real world though, when it comes to landowners allowing hunters on their land, liability is not a problem. If it were even a small problem, wouldn't the insurance companies use it as an excuse to charge farmers an arm and a leg for insurance? Terry and I don't tend to agree on much but he agreed with me that insurance doesn't cost the farmowner/landowner much. The reason is simply that claims just don't happen often. Once again, landowner liability when it comes to hunting is basically a myth. |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Bt my 1 and only piece of free legal advice to you; The law does not decifer between acts of confluence, ( how the property, in this case the lands)are used. The legislate is used not how used. Lawful or not , legal wavier or not. BTW a signed release of liabitly has about as worth as a flat tire. None!
The fact that property owners can add a rider onto thier policy at a low rate is as you say. Because incidents per policies are indeed low. But don't fool yourself regardless of if these incidents are low in number or not. In the event one should take place on your property insured or not, regardless of the tort you carry on it. The deeded owner or the leasee or both are indeed liable. BT I'm pleading with you. PLEASE send me your street address. PLEASE! and we can let the courts decide if ANY PROPERTY owner regardless of 1/4 acre or 300 acres is LIABLE for injuries incured on their land thru negligence. Oh you say negligence now that's a different issue. Yeah right! Ask your attorney negligence is one of the easiest cases to win, in my racket if we got a good case of negligence the first phone call we made was to a hunting consultant to book a trip for ourselves. BT do yourself a favor...stick to something you know something about. there's got to be something out there somewhere. |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
LedgenLS-
I don't think telling us we are stupid or that we know nothing is fair, if you learned this arrogance at Law school I'm glad I didn't get into that field! Maybe you just had a weak moment................<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I see the thread has about run it's course, so this is it for me. Good shooting to all, (till the next one!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Pinwheel 12 |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
BT, better not let the Mrs. know people are asking for your address! Are you gonna get a date? I know, you`re gonna rent him one of those houses you own. Hey, one truthful thing, he did not even call it a law practice, he called it a "RACKETT"<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Duh, I guess I done been told again!
Stick to things I know. Well, I know this thread is going nowhere just like Pinwheel said. I think it was Mark who said something about remembering the serenity prayer in another thread.... |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Aw come on BT , I hope that feeble attempt was not your best shot at saving face. you were wrong and proven wrong once again. so go play with the tonkas now with your other 'lil playmates. At least you won't be giving false imfo out AGAIN that could get some poor guy in trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pinny: Show me where I stated you're stupid or ignorant in the manner you implied. i reread my posts and so nowhere in them any such words. Please quote me those words from my posts. Though I do profess to say you have an ignorance of the law, that is true. You,yourself imposed those feelings on no one but yourself. Arrogance you bet I have it. I am able to boldly produce the facts as such. not try to pass off some half truth mumbo-jumbo as so called fact like a poll taken on these pages , as an example. Edited by - Ledgen LS on 02/17/2002 07:26:32 |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
I was not proven wrong. You tried to make landowner liability out to be a big problem. It is not. It is not because there is a solution, CHEAP liability insurance. Any landowner who doesn't carry it is just not very smart.
You tried to portray it as a big concern to landowners and it might be to a very few uninformed people. I simply sought to correct some misconceptions that would have been further perpetuated by your claims. Never said that it's impossible that a landowner coulkd be sued. It is so highly improbabale however that it is not a valid arguement for turning hunters away from ones property. I hope the mods noticed that once again, you have resorted to a personal attack. To that I will not respond in kind. |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
the only time being libale isn't a BIG Problem ,as you put it is # 1 if you don't own the land # 2 if a law suit is settled for less than the cap on your insurance policy..and you figure from that day on you don't need indurance anymore..cause thsoe cheap rates won't be there ..your ins. company will drop you.
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
LedgenLS-
You, yourself, being of "extreme knowledge" (of seemingly all subjects! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>), must of course recognize the implications of INTENT. I may have on my part created a little ASSUMPTION, but I think we both knew where you were coming from. Luckily not everyone here uses your tactics, otherwise the Anti's would be sitting back laughing like the devil watching us hunters fighting amongst ourselves like kids on a playground, with no means to an end. Debate is one thing, attacks are another, no matter whether written or implied. Pinwheel 12 Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 02/17/2002 10:40:12 |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Legend, do you get a kick out of questioning everyone? I wanted this post to be a non-bashing post, but you just couldn't resist it, could you? The only answers you have to points that contradict you are personal assults. Yue question everyone and their motives, how about this, how about I question you and your motives? Would you like that? Have you ever heard about treating others as you would want others to treat you. Your little "I am the smartest person on this board" act is getting old. Take a look at yourself, you do no good to this board, all you do is cause trouble.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^) |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
bm thank you<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
haha Man Legend, maybe you are the smartest person, you know that the best way to get someone mad is to not reply in a mean way. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^) |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
I hope I don't have to repeat that I will tell you all when I am not sure of something I have posted. Be well.
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Well i guess i'll get my $.02 worht in
I do agree with the mangement of the deer in Pa. but the way the the Game Commission is going about it way out of this world. I think that they need to look at other states and the way they have mad a better deer heard. like the mid west. They didnt get the deer heard built up buy shooting all the does and killing only big bucks. I know of what Iowa has done to get their heards up and this year for the residents bow hunters whas able to get 4 deer tags. But few years back they You couldnt get but only one tag a year. Ive hunted many years back in iowa and gotten many popeand young deer form their. But the big trouble you have in theis state is your game commission. when i was talking to one at the sports show thei year about the youth and seinior riflr season been while archery season was going on and how close i came to getting shot by some young kid out their. the response was that he felt that archery season shouldnt even take place. well thats my $.02 worhth . But i know what ever is put on the books ill still will be out their hunting for that one great hunt. |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
That seems to be one problem with some of the management people, they want to get rid of bowhunting. What do you guys think of this? I think that it is ridiculous, bow hunting is the only way to have a peacefull day of deer hunting in Pennsylvania.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"  |
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
EZZACKLY!
If we wind up with a rifle doe season in october we have only ourselves (Bowhunters) to blame. I bet this October will be our last chance to avoid it by stacking up the does. The close nature of bowhunting could be sold as a good managemnet tool regarding the killing of does while letting button bucks go too!! An earn a buck program would be an immense help but that doesn't seem to have aroused the PGC's interest. ENCOURAGE ALL YOUR BOWHUNTING FRIENDS TO KILL A DOE OR TWO AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE THIS FALL!!!!! sorry for yelling <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> |
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
how about this? Archers are about 1/3 of all hunters. Why not designated archery specific doe tags calculated to generate a kill equall to 1/3 of each county goal. With the lower success rate, there would be plenty of doe tags for the archers willing to put in the time to kill a few in the preferred time slot. Plenty of doe tags for NR's like pinwheel that now get the short end of the stick.
Just thinkin out loud.... could it work?? Man do I spell lousy when I try to type fast! Edited by - btbowhunter on 02/21/2002 17:10:31 |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
yes i under stand about iowa being diff. then Pa but what i was gwtting at is the way they are handing the deer heard here like the doe season before archery season
one thing iowa did to solve problem was they gave out what tag u got weather it be doe or buck not every oine was able to get a buck tag |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Just to comment on PA's new reg's, it's nice to see PA step up to the plate with the other 21+ states that have QDM regulations implimented in some form within their states.
It's working in all the other states in their respective areas, so PA should be commended for basing it's management techniques on sound scientific, proven research. Good Job PA! Jeff...U.P. of Michigan. |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Lochorns, lets see what you have to say about this. Why should it be the duty of archers to harvest does???? I thought that archery hunting was supposed to be a fun and relaxing thing. Why should archers be forced to shoot a doe if they don't want to? What about the archer who only has one good spot to hunt, should he shoot a doe in that area and hope that it doesn't spook all the deer away from there? It seems like everyone is placing the fault on archers. What about rifle hunters? They could kill more doe. That would mean that more doe, and their fetus's inside them would die. I just don't understand how every problem with Pennsylvania's deer management problems gets pushed back on the archers, but rifle hunters can do no wrong. I hunt with both, I don't feel that I am doing something wrong when I hunt with either weapon. It is MY decision what to shoot and what not to shoot. The law says nothing about archers HAVING to shoot does, so how is it wrong when an archers passes up does for a big buck????
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Let me get this right? Archers are responsible for too many does? It wasn't all that long ago that total archer success in PA was less than 3% (Bucks and Does). That was when you could harvest a doe on your regular back tag in any county you bowhunted.
If an archer does not get a doe permit now for his/her respective county of choice, He/she cannot shoot a doe anyway. We have a buck only back tag with our regular license! I think it would be great if we could go back to the old tag you could use for either sex deer in archery season. Once again, Lochorns, your logic has no merit! Gar |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Nope, don't buy it, Give everyone a doe permit, and eferyone is happy, with the added bonus of everytone's else's agenda being met. Why it won't happen, it means loss of funds to every county in the state. You folks need to change the license structure, get the politians out of your back pocket, and get with a management plan that works!
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RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
This is gonna hurt to say.....I agree with one statement that lochorns made. We, as PA archers(and myself included)have ourselves to blame for the possibility of a gun season for doe in october. For the sake of a healthy deer herd, more does need to be shot. I realize that there could possibly be improvements made in the way doe tags are made available, but every archer should buy doe tags for their area, and fill them. Alot of the archers do their part by filling doe tags, but a heck of alot of us do not! I have not taken a doe for more years than I can remember. Why? Because just like lochorns said, I am always waiting for a good buck. I have`nt helped to keep doe #`s down, but I sure have taken the bucks, thus further knocking the buck/doe ratio out of proportion. So, while some PA archers have a legitimate gripe about a gun season in october, I don`t have room to say a single word.
AR will help, and hopefully in the very near future, DMU`s will be implemented. And maybe guys like me will start shooting does. Then the world will be a happy place.:) |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
BC I bet that hurt. LOL We ALL do need to help with the doe heard or things like this will happen. Like a rifle season in october.
Brian |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
We got maybe one more season to try and correct the situation before the rifles are brought in to OUR season. Pile up the does and get your buddies to do the same!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
It'll never happen you say? I've gotta admit I think it's a long shot too, but I felt that way the first time I heard a suggestion for a 6 week bow season extending into the rut just a few years ago! |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Lets look at it this way. The hunter pays to hunt a deer with his bow, right? The hunter automatically has his buck tag when he gets his liscence, right? The Game Commission wants the number of doe to be lowered right? Then, here is a crazy idea. Why not have two antlerless doe tag sales? One, where they distribute the number of doe tags they want archers to kill, only to archers. Then, before rifle season, they sell the number of tags they want rifle hunters to kill? I know that it would be hard to do, but it would probablly be the best way. You aren't going to have too many hunters buying archery antlerless tags and passing up does. That would be the best system.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
Cruiser, you hit the million dollar jackpot. I believe you are correct, it's all about the money. Otherwise, I can see no reason why archers should not be able to hunt both on their original license to help with the admitted problem of overpopulation of does. THEN if they want more, go buy the additional available tags. Too simple.
As stated before, as a NR I have no problem with the PGC jacking up the cost of my original license to whatever the "greed need" warrants, provided that I know I can harvest either sex on my tag. This way there is no "jumping through hoops" or waiting until all doe tags are gone before being allowed to apply for one, or having to pass up immeasureable numbers of does while in stand, and wait until a 6pt comes by. Seems ridiculous to me. If you want to SAVE your bucks, and get rid of the does, WHY aren't you letting us TAKE a doe rather than FORCING us to shoot a buck? That 6 pt that I'm holding out for will be a nice 8pt next year if I take a doe home instead! Think about it. The whole thing doesn't make sense. And usually, like most things connected by greed and money, it won't get better anytime soon unless ALOT of people gripe about it. I really don't feel we all have to be "jumping through every hoop", and looking at the calendar for the "day that I can apply, gotta mail it out THIS day so it get's there THAT day". I hunt other States and provinces as a resident and Non with very good systems in place, and this just seems all so unnecessary. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
BM I agree. (Look at my post above)
Arhers are 1/3 of our hunters. I'd guess that if we killed 1/3 of the does targeted there wouldnt be a need for a rifle season in October. If archery specific doe licenses in sufficient quanitiy don't produce that, then work in the inlines and crossbows. ONE STEP AT A TIME. I dont like either in regular archery season but they'd be the lesser of evils! |
RE: I want your opinion on Pa's new proposals!
I agree with letting us archers get doe tags.
That was my problem last year I messed up and didnt get my tag in time to get a doe tag. So all I could shoot was a buck had many oppritunities to sHoot a doe this past year but couldnt. They are saying its up to us bow hunters to kill all the doe well I know alot of guys around here took most of the doe tags and only hunt rile. If that the case around here how can we kill all the doe. im one that would be up to paying for a doe tag or even just gettting a doe tag. |
commercial liability insurance
Really fantastic post. Thanks for sharing. very useful information!
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The problem in PA
It always had an enormous amount of hunters. That always meant fairly short seasons, and one antlered deer per season. Have they changed that, lately ?
In my opinion, too many hunters want personal control, for whatever reason. But if you want control or want an opinion to count, how many acres of land are really familiar to you. Do you know a square mile; five square miles; a hundred square miles? Is the square mile you hunt, really representative of the whole 100 sq. miles surrounding it? Do you even hunt five different locations? Years ago, I used to work or travel in every county of PA. I remember driving the highways, noting the number of dead deer on the roads, in the various counties. I even had a spotter or two, who traveled where I hunted. Even with all that travel, I knew it was only a "quick snapshot" and totally incomplete. It helped me pick out four counties one year. And I never restricted myself to the same ten acres. But I'm sure there are those who hunt the same 100 acres every year, and are positive that they know the deer in the whole, wide, state. One drive from Uniontown to Stroudsburg, was enough to prove to me, how little I knew. |
I enjoyed reading the posts from way back in 2002. I had no idea they were still available.
It was interesting to compare what was said about the plan back then compared to what we know now. Back then we were told that there weren't enough buck to breed the doe, there was a problem with late born fawns and we needed to improve the buck age structure. Now we know none of that was true and that the plan did nothing to improve breeding rates. productivity or the general health of the herd. We also were told that reducing the herd would increase regeneration and improve forest health. But ,after 9 years of herd reduction, the WMU with the lowest deer density ,2G ,is still rated as poor and 13 of 22 WMU's still have regeneration rates of under 50%. While there is no doubt that APRS increased the percentage of 2.5+ buck in the harvest, it didn't produce ,"more and larger buck than ever before" as Alt predicted. In 2001, the year before APRs were implemented we harvested 44K 2.5+ buck and 159K 1.5 buck. Now compare that to the harvest of 55K 2.5+ buck and only 53K 1.5 buck in 2009. so while the 2.5+ buck harvest increased by 11k the 1.5 buck harvest decreased by 106K. So while a small percentage of our hunters are benefiting by harvesting a 2.5+ buck ,a much higher percentage of the hunters aren't seeing or harvesting a legal buck. |
Prior to 2003 immature bucks AKA spikes, and 4 pointers were slaughtered. Nowadays, spikes and 4 points are everywhere (stupid), and legal mature bucks are nocturnal (smarter).
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If spikes and 4 pts. are everywhere in your area ,consider yourself as lucky. I haven't seen a buck since Sept. and i live where I hunt and spot light my area 5 or 6 nights a week. My only hope is that my 13 yr. old niece gets a shot at a deer the first day. That will make my season a success.
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That's only because, as you've told people many times over the years under various names Larry, you hunt the hill behind your house. Now it's my understanding that your wheelchair bound so don't take this the wrong way, but you have to move around to other locations. So many hunters hunt the same couple acres year after year and then complain when they don't see anything, comparing it to times when they were spoiled by an overabundance of deer.
"Back then we were told that there weren't enough buck to breed the doe," He never said that, he said there weren't enough older buck doing the breeding. Yearlings were, and while they can complete the task, they loose lots of energy and fat stores while doing a job the older bucks should be doing, as in a healthy herd. "there was a problem with late born fawns" There was and the fawn study showed this. "we needed to improve the buck age structure." And we did so by the success of antler restrictions protecting some of those yearlings which dominated the harvest; and producing a large 2.5 class as evidenced in the harvest where they once made up around 18% of the harvest and now are about 50% of it. Now I know your favorite pastime is to put a spin on reality to suit your ego and to save face, and your free to do that. But don't assume all hunters are ignorant of the facts and will believe your every word. Hunters on Pa. websites didn't buy into it and I don't think the nations hunters are any more gullible either. It's undeniable that PA is now producing more of these bigger buck, just as they said it would. Even the president of the taxidermists assoc. said they have. |
He never said that, he said there weren't enough older buck doing the breeding. Yearlings were, and while they can complete the task, they loose lots of energy and fat stores while doing a job the older bucks should be doing, as in a healthy herd. And we did so by the success of antler restrictions protecting some of those yearlings which dominated the harvest; and producing a large 2.5 class as evidenced in the harvest where they once made up around 18% of the harvest and now are about 50% of it. You claim ARs produced a large 2.5+ class , but in 2002 we harvested 52,602 2.5+ buck and in 2007 we only harvested 48,048 2.5+ buck and after 8 years of ARs we harvested less than 3000 more 2.5 buck in 2009 than in the very first year of ARs. Those are the facts that refute the PGC propaganda that you are parroting. In 2002 we harvested 112,814 1.5 buck and 52,602 2.5+ buck while in 2009 we harvested 53,082 1.5 buck and 55,248 2.5+ buck. So,were more buck hunters happy in 2002 or in 2009? |
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