RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Ok I will bite, but what is the current dpsm in 3c and what is the goal? Again, as I have said numerous times b4 there are too many deer especially doe in the area I hunt. (in my opinion) I would like to see them issue more doe tags in our area, but you cant get the people to hunt them on certain properties, so I dont know how that will work out?

If am going to answer your question... Did you answer my last question?

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

I'm sorry I missed that.I am not a member of the usp.Actually,I may be wrong but I think they're down to 3 members now.:DAlts goal for 3c is 14 dpsm.In Jan 03,the pgc had it listed at 29 dpsm.If you are willing to take your herd down to that level,do you honestly expest to see more and bigger bucks than ever before?If you're not willing to do that,it's hipocrytical to say you support Alt.I'd be willing to bet once you reached that goal,you wouldn't be satisfied.

Let me make myself a little more clear.I don't hate the pgc.I think they've generally done a good job.I also support some of the things Alt has done.I like concurrent seasons even though I thought that would be a disaster at first.I'm also in favor of ar but I have realistic expectations of the results.I also favor herd reductions to a point.I think we had far too many deer for far too long.Wyoming county and Susquehanna still have entirely too many.What I have a problem with is the way herd reductions are being implemented.The goal of this plan is to reduce deer numbers to more than half of the max carrying capacity.You and I know this won't happen everywhere because most landowners won't allow it.What cracks me up is these are the same guys giving Alt a big adda boy.They're not even following the plan for crying out loud.I will assure you this,herd reductions while necessary around here,have gone to far.It's mostly public land with unlimited access.Couple that with the biggest allocations in history and give all these rifle hunters two more weeks to kill their deer and you end up with far less deer.It isn't even the low deer numbers around here that upsets me.I kill a decent buck every year.It's the fact that Alt can stand up and lie about the herd not being reduced.He claimed and 8 percent reduction two years ago.The next year we followed up with the biggest kill in history.He can't even keep up with his own lies.*

The truth is,we needed a reduction in most places.However,most places can sustain more deer than Alt is willing to let live.Every dmu in the state except one has a deer density goal of 15 dfsm or less.Not every unit will hit this goal in the near future but the ones that do will see their hunting worse than ever before not better as Alt promised.*

If it seemed like I jumped on you I appologize.Like I said before,if I spent all my time up there I would think guys were crazy if they said they didn't see a deer all season.I would also be in favor of killing more doe and letting more bucks live.It just gets to me when I hear guys suggest to others that they should simply move.I have that luxury but it isn't that easy for most people.Not to mention,it shouldn't be necessary.*

Overall,I think AR will probably produce more bigger bucks in certain areas.I think Wyoming,Susquehanna and Bradford counties will all benefit because it will be hard to get the deer numbers down to the ridiculous goals Alt is shooting for.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Doug Taking a reasonable guess I could say yes maybe 29 DPSM that seems a bit high, but reasonable. A square mile is a big chunk of real estate.

Yes I think it should be lower than 29 DPSM. 14 DPSM seems low maybe 18-22 range I would say, seems reasonable.

I dont think (honestly) it will ever get that low up here as you pointed out. TO much land and not enough hunters. Then you have the people that control alot of private land (like my neighbors) that do nothing to help with doe control. And the majority of the downstaters or non residents that come here dont hunt doe. So how do you fix it? (I Cant put that much meat in the freezer ;))

Time will prove alot of us write or wrong. So far I would say the changes have been for the better. Alot of the concerns voiced by people have proven not to be true (like concurrent seasons and AR)I also remember Mr ALt always saying was that the goal was to reduce the herd for a few years and allowing some of the habitat to come back. ITs only been two years thus far so I would expect a few more years of this.

By the way he will be on PA outdoor life next sunday so send in your questions via email to channel 16.:D

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

The reason I responded to this post in the first place is voice my opinion based on both sides of this argument.I hunt in both extremes so I think I understand the concerns on both sides.*

I think you'll probably see benefits to this plan in the areas where you hunt.Shooting more doe and less buck is certainly a step in the right direction.You're hunting will probably improve because it's doubtful Alts ridiculous deer density goals will be reached do to the amount of private property in that area.*

On the other hand,don't be so quick to judge the lack of success or lack of deer sightings others are experiencing accross the state.Our deer densities are at or below Alt's goals and the hunting has gotten much worse.Back in Wyoming county,I never have a day without seeing several deer.Not one time in over 22 years has it taken me more than one day to kill a deer back there.In Clearfield county,I can go days without even seeing a tail in some places.Luckily I have a few decent pieces of private land to hunt on.*

I know Alt said the herd will be allowed to rebound after the forests recover.That's another flat out lie that will never happen.Cameron county has been below it's goal for over ten years now with little change in the habitat.Everytime they timber a piece of state land out here,they fence it in.I can show you several enclosures that have very poor regeneration despite the lack of deer.I realize too many deer are detrimental but the deer are taking all of the blame.Mark my word,once the herd reduction goals are met,the herd will be maintained at those levels.Just hope and pray this merger doesn't happen.If it does,dcnr will have a much bigger say in how little deer we are allowed to have.I'm on a game management committee with two guys from dcnr.These guys hate the deer.*

None of this has anything to do with producing bigger bucks,improving the breeding rates or the general health of the herd.This is all about the deer's relationship with timber.In areas where the Timber rules,the deer lose.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

i just read all of the posts on this subject and it was alot of reading. doug and illback, i have to say well done on a very hot debate. i also hunt in clearfield. been hunting there for about 20 years. and the deer numbers are WAY down from years past. doug i think you hit the nail on the head with your posts. maybe i have an idea that most hunters should at lease listen to. some people may remember when you chould only kill one deer per year. that is how i hunt. if i get a buck .i will let the does walk. maybe the hunters should slow down a little, thats all im saying. for a yr or 2. your thoughts.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

painless,I think slowing down is a great idea for some people in some areas.I almost always kill a buck in Clearfield county during archery season.I mainly hunt close to home because I can only hunt either before work or after work.I flat out refuse to shoot a doe on public property but I will kill one on a few different farms where I have permission to hunt.I always head up to Wyoming county at least once or twice a year to kill a doe or just drive for others.I would fill every tag up there I could legally get and not feel guilty.I actually have no problem with higher allocations and herd reductions.I just wish people would show restraint and shoot them where they need to be shot.This state is very diverse and it should be managed as such.Unfortunately,massive herd reductions have taken place where the herd is already way down and little progress has been made to lower the in areas that truely need it.We're all on the same side here.We just need to look at this from others viewpoints.