Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Was reading the local paper today and saw there was a notice regarding the united sportsmen of Pennsylvania conducting an on line survey to the game commission regarding deer hunting. You can see it and submit your survey on line at www.usp.cc

All together looks like the old evil empire up to there old tricks to overthrow the PGC and Dr. ALt as usual.

Noticed the questions are rather black or white and scewed to the ANTI PGC/Alt side. Like the question regarding do you think there should be more doe licenses allocated. The answer, "More or less" licenses instead of "More, less or the same #". OR More or less based on DMU surveys on deer herd populations.

I for one, am really getting tired of this anti -PGC and Anti- Alt stuff. I really think they are trying to change things for the better. Yah they are not perfect but they have come along ways in 2 years!!!

Rome was not built in a day, its going to take time to get where we want to go.

I Personnally saw more nicer bucks this year than I ever have. Without a doubt that is directly related to AR. THe number of deer in our area both private and public seems to be rather plentiful.

And if you heard any of Alt's lectures the goal was to reduce the deer herd for the first few years and try and better the habitat before going back to a higher deer populations.

It just seems discouraging to me to see all this ANTI stuff lately in the papers. The vast majority of the people I know and hunt with are in favor of the new regs, AR and more season lengths.

Lets add Sunday hunting and 1 more week of archery to those changes and I would be really happy!!

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

If you've been to huntingpa.com, I'm sure you noticed all the anti-Alt/PGC posts. It gets annoying after a while.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Hey ilbback, how ya doing?
Truely glad you saw nicer bucks this year. I have nothing against AR's, but your quote about plentiful deer on public land just doesn't wash.
There have been way too many posts, and not just from me, about the lack of deer on our sgl's and state forests. Please don't infer that we must all be lousy hunters either. If you've got a good place to hunt, good for you, I hope it remains that way. I talked to a guy from the forestry assoc at the Sportsmen Show. He also said we have too many deer (surprise, surprise!), but he hunts Somerset county in SW PA, which, if you look at deer density maps, is high in deer population. I asked him about acid rain and it's affect on our forests. He agreed it was as serious a problem as deer overbrowsing. He also stated he felt the hemlock was doomed due to insect parasites. There is so much more to this problem than just kill the deer. We've had acid rain polution from the Ohio Valley steelplants for lots of decades, but it's only the last few years that the deer herd has declined, coinciding with a sharp increase in doe tags.

PAhunter:
"If you've been to huntingpa.com, I'm sure you noticed all the anti-Alt/PGC posts. It gets annoying after a while."

I went to their site and saw many posts that approve of Dr Alt's programs.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

I will go submit my survey....biased or not...;)

I frequent huntingpa on occasion but the archery boards seem relatively slow overall in comparison to some of the other forums I frequent. The big game and main forums...well, that is another story...:)

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Ive summitted mine, I gotta agree with Mike the game lands are hurting at least in Schuylkill County they are.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

I'll agree that HuntingPA has plenty of anti-Alt chatter, but it's almost all from the same handful of people. I'll be submitting my survey!

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Mike if you want to see alot of deer on PUBLIC LAND then get up to SGL 36 in Bradford county or the gamelands outside of Wyalusing or the other game lands near Warren center and you will see plenty of deer and deer sign. I cant help that your area is poor in habitat and devoid of deer............sounds like its time to MOVE TO A NEW AREA and quit complaining about the old one. At least thats what i would do. ;)

Again you are generalizing that all public land in the state is devoid of deer,,, this is simply is not true. Again, i find it really hard to believe that in a couple of years all the deer are gone. I just cant believe that all the licenses for your county or DMU went to people that are exclusively hunting your PUBLIC land areas and wiping out your deer herds. I still believe it has been a long time in the making due to habitat issues. To simply put it deer are not going to be where there is nothing for them to eat.

In our area I hunt that is mostly surrounding mountainous game lands, hardly anybody hunts for doe. If you cruise around all the cabins and look at the meat poles of the people that hunt SGL most of them have 0 doe hanging and all buck. Believe me its not for lack of doe. I personally wish they would start whacking doe cause our areas buck to doe ratio is terrible and too many old heads have the idea " Dont shoot the breeders" it will ruin the huntin!!! Why dont you come up here and I'll point you in the right direction, maybe you can help us get the buck to doe ratio evened out;)

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

im all for the regs. but one thing im not gonna do is MOVE TO ANOTHER AREA. I've worked too hard on stand locations,,liscense fees ,,,etc,,, to give up,,,something needs to be done about low deer populations and it has to be done now,,,& if you think deer populations are not down throughout the state, then i suggest you look back thru the threads from nov. & dec ,,,theres a deffinate tell all from the good folks right here at Huntingnet.com

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Rem, not to be rude or anything, but you need to adapt just like the deer do. If there is no food then the deer won't be around. What good is it to have a bunch of once good stands if there aren't deer in the area? The herd is down in my area too, but instead of whining about the amount of time I've spent scouting I go out, continue to scout and continue to be successful. As far as license costs go, I don't know where you buy you licenses, but last time I checked a back tag is good anywhere in the state and cost $20 for res. adult. Antlerless tags are only good in specified WMU's, but they're still only $6 statewide.

What I'm saying is if you don't HUNT the deer, your success will falter. If you sit on the same stump every year just because it USED TO BE GOOD then I guess your success was determined by noone but yourself.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Areas I put time into scouting produced lots of deer sightings. Areas I had as old realibles and didn't scout produced scattered deer sighting results some good, some the same, some bad. Folks need to get used to less deer numbers that's the goal (and the need) of deer managment. The better the habitat the more deer I saw and I killed a 10pt this past year. Could someone please give me the address of the person I can complain to in the game commission about that. I'd like to get a letter out to him right away! Plenty of deer sign in the woods we've seen while running our foxhounds after season. More "Scouting about" and Less "Scuttle butT" by many folks would suit them better. My that's as crafty as I've been in days. Juniorpc.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Illbback if you think that once herd reduction is done if it ever will be that the deer population will be allowed to increase dont hold your breath. You will never see the deer herd that high again if they get their way. The foresrty and other interest wont allow it to happen. There is to much at stake for the DCNR to allow it to happen.
As for moving that works if you have the time and are able to but what about the guys whi have a day or 2 at the most to hunt? There are other reasons why guys wont move and who is to fault them for that not me. For son
me work and family obligations come first and they get out when and where they can. The way deer management is going now leaves one wondering sometimes. We have the GC saying things that dont make sense Alt spouts numbers that cant be substaniated. Who do you believe?

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Dale, I personally never want to see the deer numbers there once was. Where I hunt we used to see 200 deer a day "easy",back in the 70's to mid 80's, driving deer . Of the MANY MANY MANY deer we saw we would be lucky to see 1- 3" spike amongst all the doe. Now we might see 20-40 deer a day and the odds of seeing a nice buck are very good.

I Never want to go back to the way it was!!! I am happy seeing 6-12 deer a day with the MUCH better chance of seeing a really nice buck amongst those that I do see. And If I dont see anything (as it turns out some days)...Oh well, I dont let that ruin the time I have to hunt. Makes me more anxious to get out the next day.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Well said Illbback!!;)

I dont want to see 60 stunted deer a day either! Been there! done that!

I realize that there are fewer deer on public lands in the "big woods" but there are still very huntable numbers in ALL the areas of the ANF I hunted this year. Maybe not as many as 25 years ago but still plenty of deer. By the way, there are far fewer hunters too because many stay closer to home!

Sure, we have pockets where hunting pressure has driven the deer onto land that we cant get to but that happened 25 years ago too!

My group has had to change our strategy and locations when hunting the big woods but we still do very well year after year. It's because we have learned to adapt!

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

I would be happy with that too....:)

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

ilbback,I grew up in Tunkannock myself.I moved to Clearfield county in 1991 but still make it back to Wyoming county a few times a year.In my opinion that county is one of the top counties in the state.It is a stark contrast to what you will find in alot of other places.I disagree with many of the things that Alt is doing.However,I can understand why you think he is trying to change things for the better.If I never left that part of the state I would agree with him as well.The problem is,things are being managed on too broad of a scale.Let me compare too vastly different areas of the state and maybe it will help you understand why so many people are so upset with Alt.*

First,Wyoming county is almost exclusively private property.Because of this it is very hard to reduce the herd beyond the levels that the landowners are willing to do.I can remember very few days of hunting that I've seen less than 20 deer.Not one time in the past 23 years have I failed to kill a deer in that area.Even if I only went home for one day,I always came back home with a deer.That area is literally crawling with deer.My brother owns about 50 acres behind Lake carey.During almost any night in the fall you can spot over 100 deer in the fields in front of his house.The reason for this is because public access is severly restricted.Alt's plan of blanket herd reductions will do nothing to curtail this problem.*

Now I'll contrast Clearfield county.In 1991 when I moved here,the deer density was about the same.However,due to the huge expanses of public land,herd reductions came rapidly.The goal for Clearfield county is 15 dpsm.Presently,we are at 12 dpsm.Now I understand the need to balance the herd with the habitat.However,these goals are 50% less than the maximum carrying capacity for this area.I kill a decent back every year in archery season around here so I'm not even complaining about the deer numbers.I will say this.Hunting is a far different ballgame in this area than it is in wyoming county.By the way the deer density goal for wyoming county is only 13 dpsm.The highest deer density goal in the state is 2F with a goal of 17 dsm.Let me tell you,that's alot less than most guys are used to.*

Personally I can live with AR.I can even live with resonable herd reductions.The herd has been drastically cut around Clearfield county and it was really needed it.I do think it's getting carried away though.What I can't live with is the b.s.,lies and misconceptions Alt has been spreading.Alt claimed we would have more and bigger bucks than ever before.That's statistically impossible is you attain the goal of reducing the herd over 50 percent.Now he's fabricating a story,saying we are in an ecological and economic crisis.He claims that the herd has only been stabalized.How can any intelligent person believe this when he announced that we had an 8 percent decrease in 2001.This 8 percent decrease was then followed by the largest kill in history in 2002.That was a bold faced lie that he is using to position us for even more reductions to come*

So why would Alt lie?Why would he want to ruin our hunting?Good question and it can be answered with one phrase....FOREST CERTIFICATION.Forest certification is a way of saying our state forests are timbered in an enviromentally safe manner.This allows Pa(the largest certified forest in the country)to sell it's valuable timber over seas at a huge profit.You see,most countries in Europe and Asia won't buy your timber unless it's certified.So what does this have to do with Alt or the deer?Good question.Our forests were last certified in 1998 by an outside company.Now in order to get recertified in 2004,it was written right into the conditions that our deer herd had to be drastically reduced.The man who was in charge of certifying our forests for that company was Byron Shissler.Conveniently,he now works for our own DCNR and is Alt's right hand man on deer management.Didn't you ever wonder why we were in such a hurry to reduce the herd?Take a look back and see how the anlerless allocations were distributed.The counties with all the state forest kept getting all the huge increases,while counties like Wyoming and Susquehanna got very little relief from the overpopulation of deer.This isn't about you,me,the insurance companies or even the deer.It's all about our state timber.It's worth alot more than the deer.*

I hope you didn't take this as a disrespect to your post.Like I said,I would also see it your way if I only hunted in the northeast.However,these guys that say they aren't seeing deer aren't kidding.There are vast public areas that have seen herd reductions that many can only dream of.Unfortunately,there is no plan to ever let the herd rebound in these areas.I hunt in area 2g near my home.The deer density in this area is already 3 deer below the goal.Regardless,I'll bet 100 bucks that we see as many if not more tags this year.Many will say the habitat needs to recover.If that's the case,why is the goal 15 dpsm in 2g and 13 dpsm in 3b and 14 dpsm in 3c?Incidentally,I got these numbers off of the pgc's latest news release.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Doug, I dont disagree that some areas of the state dont have it as good as we do up here. I am very glad to live where I do. But there are to many generalizations from people that all Public property is devoid of deer. This is simply not true. Some areas, yes no question, but its due to the fact that the deer have little to eat in most of those big woods areas.

I also very much disagree that a so called "record" kill in 2002 led to the demise of the deer populations on Public land in 1 or two years......simply put BULL!!!!! You just cant change my mind that all these "extra tags" went into the hands of individuals that specifically hunt these public and SGL's and they wiped out the herds in one or two years. NOT!

THis has been happening over a much longer time due the big woods growing older and being chewed up by deer so bad over a period of many years that the deer population has simply gone south due to the fact they have little to eat.

I dont dispute that the PGC could do more to bring back the herds in these areas. Like more Timbering, food plots and less antlerless tags if that is what it is going to take. I hope we dont go back to the days of "Yore" where there was a little 60lb deer behind every tree. I agree with you about the timber issue 100%. However, think about it. IF you owned all that timber you would want to get the most out of it as well as I would. If they flood the market with timber not only the PGC will be hurt (do to falling timber $'s) but landowners like me who would like to get the most out of my timber investment in my 236 acres.

I personally believe that the "Buck" hunting was ALOT better this year. I saw Alot more bucks this year than i ever have and ALOT of really nice buck. I think its only going to get better. I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS:D.

I really feel bad for those people whos hunting areas are not as good as mine.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

ilbback,what you need to understand is that many areas of the state have huge expanses of pubic land.Around here,everything in this county north of I80 is almost all public land.Our herd has seen huge reductions in the last ten years.I actually had no problem with this as we needed reductions.However,the antlerless allocations have been increased dramatically over the last three years in this area.If there were too many deer up to this point I wouldn't object.However,the deer herd had taken a huge dip for several years prior to Alt taking over.It's not due to a lack of food either.This year I killed a nice eight point on the first wed of archery season.I hunted at least 3 evenings and 3 mornings a week for the remainder of archery season and only saw one more buck.I saw zero doe from my stand.I scout or hunt almost every weekend of the year.It's 11:30 right now and I just got in from hunting coyotes in the pouring rain.My lack of sightings wasn't due to lack of preperation or lack of experience.It wasn't due to the fact that I put all my eggs in one basket either.I never hunted the same area more than 2 times all season.The fact is,our deer herd has been reduced to below 13 dpsm.I could almost live with that low of a deer density but since the pgc refuses to ackowledge that the herd has been decreased,we will most likely see an increase in antlerless allocations and certainly a huge increase in dmap permits for the state forests.*

On the first saturday of rifle season I went to my mothers house near saddle lake in Wyoming county.With absolutely zero preperation,I hiked to the top of the mountain behind her house.Within 15 minutes of sitting down I filled my Wyoming county doe tag.I lost count of how many deer I saw while dragging that deer out.Plus,I only saw one other hunter in that area.After I hung that deer up and skinned it I went over to my brothers house around 10:00 am to drive for him.He has about fifty acres past Camp St Andrew and access to a few hundred more acres that borders his property.While driving for him,I know I saw another couple dozen deer in the afternoon.During that entire time,I failed to see another hunter.I really wasn't surprised to see one other hunter all day because both places are private property.*

If I never left Tunkhannock,I would also think Alt was doing the right thing. Unfortunately,the areas that need relief from the overpopulation of does are getting very little relief.At the same time,areas that have been below the deer density goal for several years keep getting the biggest increases in antlerless allocations.The reason for this is that Wyoming county has no state forests.Areas in the north central region have huge expanses of state forest.I see both sides of this issue because I hunt in both extremes.Expecting a guy to move his camp or general hunting location isn't the answer.The answer is to manage each area according to it's own carrying capacity.The areas in the north central region are being managed below 50 percent of the maximum carrying capacity.You're hunting in an area that is more that double the deer density goal.Back where I live we're hunting a herd that is already below the goal.This is due to almost unlimited access and huge increases in the doe tags.Despite this,I'll put 10 bucks on it that we get a bigger increase this year in 2g than you do in 3b or 3c.That kind of nonsense is why people are screaming about the present deer program.Take my word for it,if you hand out enough tags and don't limit the number of hunters in an area,the deer population can take a big dip real fast.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

One last thing.I'm not complaining about antler restrictions.I think we needed to kill less bucks and more doe but we will never have more and bigger bucks than ever before as Alt claimes.Now a guy like you that has several hundred acres of land,will see the biggest benefit because you can control how many deer are killed on your property.However,the public lands that are already below the deer density goal will now have less bucks than ever before.I belong to a 15000 acre lease back here and I saw it happen.We had antler restrictions for several years before Alt too over.For the first few years they seemed to work wonders but we only had a couple hundred members.A few years ago the membership started to grow and now I believe there are over 600 members.Not one noteworthy buck that I know of was taken of this lease in the last two years.A big increase in pressure targeted any buck that was within the restrictions and very few made it to the next age class.You probably will notice a difference but get the herd down below 13 dpsm like Alt wants it reduced to in 3b and your hunting will suffer.Are you willing to reduce the herd to that level?If you're not,you really don't believe in Alt either.I printed the deer density goals off of the pgc website for every management unit.I'd be more than happy to send them to you.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Doug ever hear of SGL 56???????????????? The entire south west corner of wyoming county is SGL's??????

I dont hunt this area either(Wyoming county) I only live here. Yes I spot light every day during the fall and I dont see 100 deer in any field up here as you say???? Maybe 15 years ago there was but not now. I am lucky to see 50 in an hour spotlighting. And I spotlight around Lake Carey and out by Camp St Andrew, Lemon area etc.

I hunt in Bradford county adjacent to SGL 36. Yes, I have some land but 236 acres is really too small to do anything as far as QDM. Yes, I can control the # of doe and buck (somewhat) taken on my property. (This year we took 12 doe and 1 buck) But its hard for me to practise QDM on my property when the land adjacent to me (3000 acres) does not doe hunt!!! (they killed 17 buck this year and 1 doe that a kid shot , I did not believe it till I saw the Pics...they killed some awesome bucks!!) Would Love for them to shoot the crap out of the doe but its not going to happen.
But yes the deer numbers are down from what they were 10 years ago and in my opinion could be reduced a little further as well.


As far as your quote "we will never see big bucks as Alt claims" I beg to differ on that one with ya. In the area that we hunt ,which is very mountainous you would drive around and see spikes and 4 points hanging on the meat poles of various camps around the area before AR. Now you see 8's and 10's and some dandys among those as well. Why is that...Cause now they are a year or two older. Before they got in the freezer b4 they could grow up a little.

People are too quick to forget also that the older a buck gets the smarter he becomes. In my opinion there will be ALOT more of these bucks around as AR goes on. (I saw alot of these bucks during archery season during the rut and 0 in rifle season....where do they all go??? Did they suddently get exterminated...NO ) I know they are out there hiding from all the hunting pressure/nocturnal and they will be around next year even bigger and smarter. CANT WAIT!!:D

Are you by chance a member of the USP??

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

The state game lands are not part of Pa's certified forests.I'm talking about state forest lands not game lands.I've spent a fair amount of time on sgl 57 during my younger days.There are far better places to hunt in that area.*

Also,Alt stated that we would have MORE and bigger bucks than ever before,not just bigger.That is statistically impossible to do if you reduce the herd in half.I agree that we may have a higher proprtion of bigger bucks but we won't have more.The difference won't be that great as a 2.5 year old isn't much smarter than a 1.5 year old.Despite that, I still agree antler restrictions are worth trying.*

If you want to see over 100 deer on about a mile stretch of road just shine a light in the fields between stark rd and the road that runs into Lake Carey just past Shadow brook.After the corn is cut,it's easy to spot that many deer on one stretch of road.The corn was very late being cut this year.Despite the overabundance of deer,there are some huge bucks in that area.I've hunted that area my whole life and I've never seen a stunted deer.Wyoming county has been producing huge bucks for as long as I can remember.*

The issue that people are complaining about has very little to do with AR.What has people upset in certain areas is the way herd reductions are being carried out.It's being done on a broad scale with little regard to the areas that actually need it.Right now,3b and 3c are more than double their density goals while other areas that are below the density goal keep getting hammered with more doe tags and dmap permits.This is why people are crying as so many put it.One more time.Are you willing to take the deer density in your area below 13 dpsm like Alt is shooting for?If you are,you will never have more and bigger bucks than ever before as Alt promised.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Ok I will bite, but what is the current dpsm in 3c and what is the goal? Again, as I have said numerous times b4 there are too many deer especially doe in the area I hunt. (in my opinion) I would like to see them issue more doe tags in our area, but you cant get the people to hunt them on certain properties, so I dont know how that will work out?

If am going to answer your question... Did you answer my last question?

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

I'm sorry I missed that.I am not a member of the usp.Actually,I may be wrong but I think they're down to 3 members now.:DAlts goal for 3c is 14 dpsm.In Jan 03,the pgc had it listed at 29 dpsm.If you are willing to take your herd down to that level,do you honestly expest to see more and bigger bucks than ever before?If you're not willing to do that,it's hipocrytical to say you support Alt.I'd be willing to bet once you reached that goal,you wouldn't be satisfied.

Let me make myself a little more clear.I don't hate the pgc.I think they've generally done a good job.I also support some of the things Alt has done.I like concurrent seasons even though I thought that would be a disaster at first.I'm also in favor of ar but I have realistic expectations of the results.I also favor herd reductions to a point.I think we had far too many deer for far too long.Wyoming county and Susquehanna still have entirely too many.What I have a problem with is the way herd reductions are being implemented.The goal of this plan is to reduce deer numbers to more than half of the max carrying capacity.You and I know this won't happen everywhere because most landowners won't allow it.What cracks me up is these are the same guys giving Alt a big adda boy.They're not even following the plan for crying out loud.I will assure you this,herd reductions while necessary around here,have gone to far.It's mostly public land with unlimited access.Couple that with the biggest allocations in history and give all these rifle hunters two more weeks to kill their deer and you end up with far less deer.It isn't even the low deer numbers around here that upsets me.I kill a decent buck every year.It's the fact that Alt can stand up and lie about the herd not being reduced.He claimed and 8 percent reduction two years ago.The next year we followed up with the biggest kill in history.He can't even keep up with his own lies.*

The truth is,we needed a reduction in most places.However,most places can sustain more deer than Alt is willing to let live.Every dmu in the state except one has a deer density goal of 15 dfsm or less.Not every unit will hit this goal in the near future but the ones that do will see their hunting worse than ever before not better as Alt promised.*

If it seemed like I jumped on you I appologize.Like I said before,if I spent all my time up there I would think guys were crazy if they said they didn't see a deer all season.I would also be in favor of killing more doe and letting more bucks live.It just gets to me when I hear guys suggest to others that they should simply move.I have that luxury but it isn't that easy for most people.Not to mention,it shouldn't be necessary.*

Overall,I think AR will probably produce more bigger bucks in certain areas.I think Wyoming,Susquehanna and Bradford counties will all benefit because it will be hard to get the deer numbers down to the ridiculous goals Alt is shooting for.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

Doug Taking a reasonable guess I could say yes maybe 29 DPSM that seems a bit high, but reasonable. A square mile is a big chunk of real estate.

Yes I think it should be lower than 29 DPSM. 14 DPSM seems low maybe 18-22 range I would say, seems reasonable.

I dont think (honestly) it will ever get that low up here as you pointed out. TO much land and not enough hunters. Then you have the people that control alot of private land (like my neighbors) that do nothing to help with doe control. And the majority of the downstaters or non residents that come here dont hunt doe. So how do you fix it? (I Cant put that much meat in the freezer ;))

Time will prove alot of us write or wrong. So far I would say the changes have been for the better. Alot of the concerns voiced by people have proven not to be true (like concurrent seasons and AR)I also remember Mr ALt always saying was that the goal was to reduce the herd for a few years and allowing some of the habitat to come back. ITs only been two years thus far so I would expect a few more years of this.

By the way he will be on PA outdoor life next sunday so send in your questions via email to channel 16.:D

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The reason I responded to this post in the first place is voice my opinion based on both sides of this argument.I hunt in both extremes so I think I understand the concerns on both sides.*

I think you'll probably see benefits to this plan in the areas where you hunt.Shooting more doe and less buck is certainly a step in the right direction.You're hunting will probably improve because it's doubtful Alts ridiculous deer density goals will be reached do to the amount of private property in that area.*

On the other hand,don't be so quick to judge the lack of success or lack of deer sightings others are experiencing accross the state.Our deer densities are at or below Alt's goals and the hunting has gotten much worse.Back in Wyoming county,I never have a day without seeing several deer.Not one time in over 22 years has it taken me more than one day to kill a deer back there.In Clearfield county,I can go days without even seeing a tail in some places.Luckily I have a few decent pieces of private land to hunt on.*

I know Alt said the herd will be allowed to rebound after the forests recover.That's another flat out lie that will never happen.Cameron county has been below it's goal for over ten years now with little change in the habitat.Everytime they timber a piece of state land out here,they fence it in.I can show you several enclosures that have very poor regeneration despite the lack of deer.I realize too many deer are detrimental but the deer are taking all of the blame.Mark my word,once the herd reduction goals are met,the herd will be maintained at those levels.Just hope and pray this merger doesn't happen.If it does,dcnr will have a much bigger say in how little deer we are allowed to have.I'm on a game management committee with two guys from dcnr.These guys hate the deer.*

None of this has anything to do with producing bigger bucks,improving the breeding rates or the general health of the herd.This is all about the deer's relationship with timber.In areas where the Timber rules,the deer lose.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

i just read all of the posts on this subject and it was alot of reading. doug and illback, i have to say well done on a very hot debate. i also hunt in clearfield. been hunting there for about 20 years. and the deer numbers are WAY down from years past. doug i think you hit the nail on the head with your posts. maybe i have an idea that most hunters should at lease listen to. some people may remember when you chould only kill one deer per year. that is how i hunt. if i get a buck .i will let the does walk. maybe the hunters should slow down a little, thats all im saying. for a yr or 2. your thoughts.

RE: Here we go again with the USP!!
 

painless,I think slowing down is a great idea for some people in some areas.I almost always kill a buck in Clearfield county during archery season.I mainly hunt close to home because I can only hunt either before work or after work.I flat out refuse to shoot a doe on public property but I will kill one on a few different farms where I have permission to hunt.I always head up to Wyoming county at least once or twice a year to kill a doe or just drive for others.I would fill every tag up there I could legally get and not feel guilty.I actually have no problem with higher allocations and herd reductions.I just wish people would show restraint and shoot them where they need to be shot.This state is very diverse and it should be managed as such.Unfortunately,massive herd reductions have taken place where the herd is already way down and little progress has been made to lower the in areas that truely need it.We're all on the same side here.We just need to look at this from others viewpoints.