Illbback if you think that once herd reduction is done if it ever will be that the deer population will be allowed to increase dont hold your breath. You will never see the deer herd that high again if they get their way. The foresrty and other interest wont allow it to happen. There is to much at stake for the DCNR to allow it to happen.
As for moving that works if you have the time and are able to but what about the guys whi have a day or 2 at the most to hunt? There are other reasons why guys wont move and who is to fault them for that not me. For son
me work and family obligations come first and they get out when and where they can. The way deer management is going now leaves one wondering sometimes. We have the GC saying things that dont make sense Alt spouts numbers that cant be substaniated. Who do you believe?

Dale, I personally never want to see the deer numbers there once was. Where I hunt we used to see 200 deer a day "easy",back in the 70's to mid 80's, driving deer . Of the MANY MANY MANY deer we saw we would be lucky to see 1- 3" spike amongst all the doe. Now we might see 20-40 deer a day and the odds of seeing a nice buck are very good.

I Never want to go back to the way it was!!! I am happy seeing 6-12 deer a day with the MUCH better chance of seeing a really nice buck amongst those that I do see. And If I dont see anything (as it turns out some days)...Oh well, I dont let that ruin the time I have to hunt. Makes me more anxious to get out the next day.

Well said Illbback!!

I dont want to see 60 stunted deer a day either! Been there! done that!

I realize that there are fewer deer on public lands in the "big woods" but there are still very huntable numbers in ALL the areas of the ANF I hunted this year. Maybe not as many as 25 years ago but still plenty of deer. By the way, there are far fewer hunters too because many stay closer to home!

Sure, we have pockets where hunting pressure has driven the deer onto land that we cant get to but that happened 25 years ago too!

My group has had to change our strategy and locations when hunting the big woods but we still do very well year after year. It's because we have learned to adapt!

I would be happy with that too....

ilbback,I grew up in Tunkannock myself.I moved to Clearfield county in 1991 but still make it back to Wyoming county a few times a year.In my opinion that county is one of the top counties in the state.It is a stark contrast to what you will find in alot of other places.I disagree with many of the things that Alt is doing.However,I can understand why you think he is trying to change things for the better.If I never left that part of the state I would agree with him as well.The problem is,things are being managed on too broad of a scale.Let me compare too vastly different areas of the state and maybe it will help you understand why so many people are so upset with Alt.*

First,Wyoming county is almost exclusively private property.Because of this it is very hard to reduce the herd beyond the levels that the landowners are willing to do.I can remember very few days of hunting that I've seen less than 20 deer.Not one time in the past 23 years have I failed to kill a deer in that area.Even if I only went home for one day,I always came back home with a deer.That area is literally crawling with deer.My brother owns about 50 acres behind Lake carey.During almost any night in the fall you can spot over 100 deer in the fields in front of his house.The reason for this is because public access is severly restricted.Alt's plan of blanket herd reductions will do nothing to curtail this problem.*

Now I'll contrast Clearfield county.In 1991 when I moved here,the deer density was about the same.However,due to the huge expanses of public land,herd reductions came rapidly.The goal for Clearfield county is 15 dpsm.Presently,we are at 12 dpsm.Now I understand the need to balance the herd with the habitat.However,these goals are 50% less than the maximum carrying capacity for this area.I kill a decent back every year in archery season around here so I'm not even complaining about the deer numbers.I will say this.Hunting is a far different ballgame in this area than it is in wyoming county.By the way the deer density goal for wyoming county is only 13 dpsm.The highest deer density goal in the state is 2F with a goal of 17 dsm.Let me tell you,that's alot less than most guys are used to.*

Personally I can live with AR.I can even live with resonable herd reductions.The herd has been drastically cut around Clearfield county and it was really needed it.I do think it's getting carried away though.What I can't live with is the b.s.,lies and misconceptions Alt has been spreading.Alt claimed we would have more and bigger bucks than ever before.That's statistically impossible is you attain the goal of reducing the herd over 50 percent.Now he's fabricating a story,saying we are in an ecological and economic crisis.He claims that the herd has only been stabalized.How can any intelligent person believe this when he announced that we had an 8 percent decrease in 2001.This 8 percent decrease was then followed by the largest kill in history in 2002.That was a bold faced lie that he is using to position us for even more reductions to come*

So why would Alt lie?Why would he want to ruin our hunting?Good question and it can be answered with one phrase....FOREST CERTIFICATION.Forest certification is a way of saying our state forests are timbered in an enviromentally safe manner.This allows Pa(the largest certified forest in the country)to sell it's valuable timber over seas at a huge profit.You see,most countries in Europe and Asia won't buy your timber unless it's certified.So what does this have to do with Alt or the deer?Good question.Our forests were last certified in 1998 by an outside company.Now in order to get recertified in 2004,it was written right into the conditions that our deer herd had to be drastically reduced.The man who was in charge of certifying our forests for that company was Byron Shissler.Conveniently,he now works for our own DCNR and is Alt's right hand man on deer management.Didn't you ever wonder why we were in such a hurry to reduce the herd?Take a look back and see how the anlerless allocations were distributed.The counties with all the state forest kept getting all the huge increases,while counties like Wyoming and Susquehanna got very little relief from the overpopulation of deer.This isn't about you,me,the insurance companies or even the deer.It's all about our state timber.It's worth alot more than the deer.*

I hope you didn't take this as a disrespect to your post.Like I said,I would also see it your way if I only hunted in the northeast.However,these guys that say they aren't seeing deer aren't kidding.There are vast public areas that have seen herd reductions that many can only dream of.Unfortunately,there is no plan to ever let the herd rebound in these areas.I hunt in area 2g near my home.The deer density in this area is already 3 deer below the goal.Regardless,I'll bet 100 bucks that we see as many if not more tags this year.Many will say the habitat needs to recover.If that's the case,why is the goal 15 dpsm in 2g and 13 dpsm in 3b and 14 dpsm in 3c?Incidentally,I got these numbers off of the pgc's latest news release.

Doug, I dont disagree that some areas of the state dont have it as good as we do up here. I am very glad to live where I do. But there are to many generalizations from people that all Public property is devoid of deer. This is simply not true. Some areas, yes no question, but its due to the fact that the deer have little to eat in most of those big woods areas.

I also very much disagree that a so called "record" kill in 2002 led to the demise of the deer populations on Public land in 1 or two years......simply put BULL!!!!! You just cant change my mind that all these "extra tags" went into the hands of individuals that specifically hunt these public and SGL's and they wiped out the herds in one or two years. NOT!

THis has been happening over a much longer time due the big woods growing older and being chewed up by deer so bad over a period of many years that the deer population has simply gone south due to the fact they have little to eat.

I dont dispute that the PGC could do more to bring back the herds in these areas. Like more Timbering, food plots and less antlerless tags if that is what it is going to take. I hope we dont go back to the days of "Yore" where there was a little 60lb deer behind every tree. I agree with you about the timber issue 100%. However, think about it. IF you owned all that timber you would want to get the most out of it as well as I would. If they flood the market with timber not only the PGC will be hurt (do to falling timber $'s) but landowners like me who would like to get the most out of my timber investment in my 236 acres.

I personally believe that the "Buck" hunting was ALOT better this year. I saw Alot more bucks this year than i ever have and ALOT of really nice buck. I think its only going to get better. I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

I really feel bad for those people whos hunting areas are not as good as mine.

ilbback,what you need to understand is that many areas of the state have huge expanses of pubic land.Around here,everything in this county north of I80 is almost all public land.Our herd has seen huge reductions in the last ten years.I actually had no problem with this as we needed reductions.However,the antlerless allocations have been increased dramatically over the last three years in this area.If there were too many deer up to this point I wouldn't object.However,the deer herd had taken a huge dip for several years prior to Alt taking over.It's not due to a lack of food either.This year I killed a nice eight point on the first wed of archery season.I hunted at least 3 evenings and 3 mornings a week for the remainder of archery season and only saw one more buck.I saw zero doe from my stand.I scout or hunt almost every weekend of the year.It's 11:30 right now and I just got in from hunting coyotes in the pouring rain.My lack of sightings wasn't due to lack of preperation or lack of experience.It wasn't due to the fact that I put all my eggs in one basket either.I never hunted the same area more than 2 times all season.The fact is,our deer herd has been reduced to below 13 dpsm.I could almost live with that low of a deer density but since the pgc refuses to ackowledge that the herd has been decreased,we will most likely see an increase in antlerless allocations and certainly a huge increase in dmap permits for the state forests.*

On the first saturday of rifle season I went to my mothers house near saddle lake in Wyoming county.With absolutely zero preperation,I hiked to the top of the mountain behind her house.Within 15 minutes of sitting down I filled my Wyoming county doe tag.I lost count of how many deer I saw while dragging that deer out.Plus,I only saw one other hunter in that area.After I hung that deer up and skinned it I went over to my brothers house around 10:00 am to drive for him.He has about fifty acres past Camp St Andrew and access to a few hundred more acres that borders his property.While driving for him,I know I saw another couple dozen deer in the afternoon.During that entire time,I failed to see another hunter.I really wasn't surprised to see one other hunter all day because both places are private property.*

If I never left Tunkhannock,I would also think Alt was doing the right thing. Unfortunately,the areas that need relief from the overpopulation of does are getting very little relief.At the same time,areas that have been below the deer density goal for several years keep getting the biggest increases in antlerless allocations.The reason for this is that Wyoming county has no state forests.Areas in the north central region have huge expanses of state forest.I see both sides of this issue because I hunt in both extremes.Expecting a guy to move his camp or general hunting location isn't the answer.The answer is to manage each area according to it's own carrying capacity.The areas in the north central region are being managed below 50 percent of the maximum carrying capacity.You're hunting in an area that is more that double the deer density goal.Back where I live we're hunting a herd that is already below the goal.This is due to almost unlimited access and huge increases in the doe tags.Despite this,I'll put 10 bucks on it that we get a bigger increase this year in 2g than you do in 3b or 3c.That kind of nonsense is why people are screaming about the present deer program.Take my word for it,if you hand out enough tags and don't limit the number of hunters in an area,the deer population can take a big dip real fast.

One last thing.I'm not complaining about antler restrictions.I think we needed to kill less bucks and more doe but we will never have more and bigger bucks than ever before as Alt claimes.Now a guy like you that has several hundred acres of land,will see the biggest benefit because you can control how many deer are killed on your property.However,the public lands that are already below the deer density goal will now have less bucks than ever before.I belong to a 15000 acre lease back here and I saw it happen.We had antler restrictions for several years before Alt too over.For the first few years they seemed to work wonders but we only had a couple hundred members.A few years ago the membership started to grow and now I believe there are over 600 members.Not one noteworthy buck that I know of was taken of this lease in the last two years.A big increase in pressure targeted any buck that was within the restrictions and very few made it to the next age class.You probably will notice a difference but get the herd down below 13 dpsm like Alt wants it reduced to in 3b and your hunting will suffer.Are you willing to reduce the herd to that level?If you're not,you really don't believe in Alt either.I printed the deer density goals off of the pgc website for every management unit.I'd be more than happy to send them to you.

Doug ever hear of SGL 56???????????????? The entire south west corner of wyoming county is SGL's??????

I dont hunt this area either(Wyoming county) I only live here. Yes I spot light every day during the fall and I dont see 100 deer in any field up here as you say???? Maybe 15 years ago there was but not now. I am lucky to see 50 in an hour spotlighting. And I spotlight around Lake Carey and out by Camp St Andrew, Lemon area etc.

I hunt in Bradford county adjacent to SGL 36. Yes, I have some land but 236 acres is really too small to do anything as far as QDM. Yes, I can control the # of doe and buck (somewhat) taken on my property. (This year we took 12 doe and 1 buck) But its hard for me to practise QDM on my property when the land adjacent to me (3000 acres) does not doe hunt!!! (they killed 17 buck this year and 1 doe that a kid shot , I did not believe it till I saw the Pics...they killed some awesome bucks!!) Would Love for them to shoot the crap out of the doe but its not going to happen.
But yes the deer numbers are down from what they were 10 years ago and in my opinion could be reduced a little further as well.


As far as your quote "we will never see big bucks as Alt claims" I beg to differ on that one with ya. In the area that we hunt ,which is very mountainous you would drive around and see spikes and 4 points hanging on the meat poles of various camps around the area before AR. Now you see 8's and 10's and some dandys among those as well. Why is that...Cause now they are a year or two older. Before they got in the freezer b4 they could grow up a little.

People are too quick to forget also that the older a buck gets the smarter he becomes. In my opinion there will be ALOT more of these bucks around as AR goes on. (I saw alot of these bucks during archery season during the rut and 0 in rifle season....where do they all go??? Did they suddently get exterminated...NO ) I know they are out there hiding from all the hunting pressure/nocturnal and they will be around next year even bigger and smarter. CANT WAIT!!

Are you by chance a member of the USP??

The state game lands are not part of Pa's certified forests.I'm talking about state forest lands not game lands.I've spent a fair amount of time on sgl 57 during my younger days.There are far better places to hunt in that area.*

Also,Alt stated that we would have MORE and bigger bucks than ever before,not just bigger.That is statistically impossible to do if you reduce the herd in half.I agree that we may have a higher proprtion of bigger bucks but we won't have more.The difference won't be that great as a 2.5 year old isn't much smarter than a 1.5 year old.Despite that, I still agree antler restrictions are worth trying.*

If you want to see over 100 deer on about a mile stretch of road just shine a light in the fields between stark rd and the road that runs into Lake Carey just past Shadow brook.After the corn is cut,it's easy to spot that many deer on one stretch of road.The corn was very late being cut this year.Despite the overabundance of deer,there are some huge bucks in that area.I've hunted that area my whole life and I've never seen a stunted deer.Wyoming county has been producing huge bucks for as long as I can remember.*

The issue that people are complaining about has very little to do with AR.What has people upset in certain areas is the way herd reductions are being carried out.It's being done on a broad scale with little regard to the areas that actually need it.Right now,3b and 3c are more than double their density goals while other areas that are below the density goal keep getting hammered with more doe tags and dmap permits.This is why people are crying as so many put it.One more time.Are you willing to take the deer density in your area below 13 dpsm like Alt is shooting for?If you are,you will never have more and bigger bucks than ever before as Alt promised.