Semi auto rifles in PA
 

I just received an email from the NRA-ILA stating that the PGC unanimously passed the use of semi-auto rifles in PA. But don't go out and buy one just yet because according to the email it has to go to a final vote during the March 27-28 meeting.
My only hope on this is that I hope they limit the mag capacity to 5 rounds. Most hunters are pretty sensible. But there is always a couple that may start spraying the woods with lead from a 30 round magazine while shooting at game.

It won't really affect me much, most of my PA deer hunting is done in shotgun-only areas, and I won't go out and buy a semi-auto rifle any time soon. I know change is difficult to accept in this state, but I've hunted in NY state for a number of years where semi-auto rifles are legal, and I'm not aware of any issues or guys getting shot, a guy with a pump or lever-action rifle can spray 5 shots almost as quick as a guy with a semi-auto rifle. Now, PA just has to get on board with Sunday hunting. :D

Spraying ?

For me that would be great news! Unfortunately quite a few hunters and land owners are against it.

It hasn't passed yet and now that it is out in the public there will be a lot of opposition to semi auto rifles. I also suspect the general assembly will be putting their oars in the water on this issue as well.

Do they allow semi auto shotguns to deer hunt there ? Some people like auto rifles and should be allowed to use them if the area is safe to use them in and should be a limit on magazine capacity ? Maybe three rounds so some people dont go nuts "spraying" bullets as some suggest.just my 2 cents on it. Ms

I personally don't see any issue witha s emi auto rifle, I cannot see where some say IF ITS SAFE TO DO SO
whats the difference in SAFE on a semi, over a bolt or pump, or lever??
its the caliber of bullet and power it packs as to HOW far it will go or not
I have seen and SOLD hunters 10 shot mag's for rem 760-7600 pumps in 30-06 and like calibers
and seen and head a TON of rally's over the yrs of 5+ shots ringing out and have since the 70's

the first BUCK and DOE seasons at teh same time, were down in the special reg's area's and they used to use semi auto shotguns, and cannot tell you how many times I see hunters unload at running deer while I hunted down there
it was TRUE< if its brown its down mind set where I was at it seemed to me
and they unloaded there guns when they seen one??(NOT everyone , but a LOT sure did)

there will be SAFE hunters and there will sadly be MORON"S out there with guns
the type of gun, doesn't matter to me to be honest
I don't think a 30 round mag should be allowed, but even if it was, HOW many would really carry one
MANY hunters I doubt want all that added weight if NO other reason
it would be a SMALL amount of those that MIGHT
the MASS of hunters I don't see falling into that game
MOST I doubt will be switching from a rile they used for yrs, to a semi, JUST cause you CAN, if passed
there will still be a alter restriction, which will slow the shooting at running deer
which I think stopped a LOT of them BIG round rally's at deer as we once had, as need to be more sure of targets now
OR the GOOD honest hunters do!
the slobs will always be out there

I hope they enforce more about the TYPES of bullets they will be using and checking them often, if your carrying a AR type rifle
as I can sure see a LOT of dummys, that DON"T know any better buying CHEAPEST ball ammo they can and flinging it at deer
and they mostly all full metal jacketed bullets that DON"T kill very well, and IMO< much MUCH higher and more likely to bounce off tree's and rocks and fly into things NOT planned!
I own a LOT of semi auto guns, and have NO plans of using one, I like my rifles I have now for deer hunting, and I think others are the same way!

I personally don't see a problem with semis for hunting at all. I have a goodly number of bolts and levers all capable of taking deer. But I would be nice if I could take one with my AR-10.
But that wouldn't become habit. Like Mrbb said the weight would really be a bother. Why should I carry a 9-10 lb rifle when I can tote a sweet little bolt action that comes in at just around 7 lbs.

might also be a problem when hunting private land, as I gather some land owner might turn away hunters showing up with AR style rifles, just due to the press they get, NOT always good

The way I look at this issue is that is is a want rather than a need. It is a want because people already have semi rifles and want to use them, I don't see a whole lot of people running out and buying AR platforms or other semi type guns if this passes. Sometimes the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. There are many more important things to address.

Safe in the sense they can use a rifle of any kind was my intent some areas are too close to homes to use rifles other than that if a guy only has a semi auto and can't afford another gun why not be able to use it ?

NOT to get off topic, and I wasn't trying to be rude towards you with the word SAFE
its just I have heard it before used in crazy way's

as for what if a person only can afford one rifle
, if that;'s the case, a bolt, is a cheaper gun no?
an AR isn't a GOOD home defense gun
if shotguns are allowed in places a rifle isn;'t
wouldn;t owning one of them over a semi rifle be a better investments
lots of things don't make sense in todays world
trying to justify what a person has a way to HAVE to be able to use it, never really works out
why make car;s vehicles that go faster than legally allowed to drive and so on?
if you follow

I honestly don;'t think many hunters today(based on costs the sport have gone up)
can ONLY afford one rifle, is a strong agreement
used rifles can be had pretty cheap, if you look (ran a gun store, so> have some experience here)

and I know very few hunters that are , have been in the sport any amount of time that ONLY have one rifle, LOL
seems hunters start to collect em after the yrs go by, or I know I have LOL
NOT trying to get off topic, or start a debate,m or bash
just saying, the argument about ONLY affording one rifle, doesn't really work IMO
I have NO issue's with folks hunting with semi auto's either

its a rifle like all others to me, it fires a bullet, , its the persons behind it I worry more about than the type of rifle thats in the woods hunting!

No offense taken ! As far as the word "safe" and "spray" and "gun violence" they are all words the left use to brainwash people nowadays and when I said safe it was meant in the true sense of the word that's the only reason I could see regulating semi auto rifles around highly populated hunting areas because we all know there are a bunch of knuckle heads out there! Imo lol

HAHA< and OK< glad I didn;t offend you, wasn't trying

But even shotguns, I don't see them as much safer than most rifles, as today, decent slug guns fire slugs well past 200 yrd
and them big slugs will bounce and GO, more than high power bullets at times too

its really comes down to the person behind a weapon, to be safe, if there wheel in there head doesns;'t spin right, poor decisions happen, IF they even think at all first

NO TYPE of gun will solve this problem
there all safe, IMO< if working properly
its the idiot behind one that makes em UN safe 99.9% of the time

NO clue even how to fix that part, but letting semi's be legal, I again say, why not, silly rule to NOT allow if you asks me!

Actually, back when several municipalities were trying to push the PA Game Commission into expanding the special regulations areas otherwise known as shotgun areas the Game Commission hired an outside research company to research if rifled slugs were safer than rifle and handgun bullets. They did this because some Senators and Representatives were threatening to take the issue out of the hands of the PGC and put it into the hands of the general assembly which would have been a disaster. The General Assembly was so sure of the results of the study that they paid for the thing. Well surprise of all surprises, the study showed that rifled slugs were actually more of a threat in a populated area because they have more of a tendency to ricochet than bullets. This made sense because in my law enforcement firearms training we were taught how to ricochet rifled slugs under vehicles to his an assailant on the other side that is shooting at officers. I got good at bouncing a slug off the ground into the chest of a silhouette target. The steeper the angle the slug is shot at the ground the higher it will bounce. To make a long story short, thus ended the attempt to expand the shotgun areas in PA.

the main safety is the guy behind the trigger, some can safely hunt in a subdivision with an AR, some shouldn't use a slingshot, but they hafta pass laws for stupid folks
RR

Some people are losing their minds over this. I've heard everything from that there won't be any deer left to how the woods will be a war zone. I myself intend to take an antlerless this year with my AR. With one shot. Like most people taking advantage of the new law will be doing.
-Jake

Hasn't passed yet, the comments to the board and from the general assembly will be pouring in between now and the next commission meeting where they will vote to accept or reject the proposal. I would say it has about a 50-50 chance.

OK food for thought
and this I know can be done
if you remove the gas tube from an AR
that renders the gun MANUAL action
it is NO longer a semi
so anyone that wanted to use a AR< could legally in PA right now, it would just have to be modified so it cannot WORK in semi auto
splitting hairs and sure a warden will bust your chops,(and you'd be asking for grief I think, ) BUT if you go to court , you would win!
and HOW do I know this
a few of my friends did this back in the late 90's ands then went hunting on Game lands> and were cited for hunting with a semi auto rifle!
they fought it, went to court, and won in court!(him and two other, they sort of did it to prove a point, I didn't feel worth proving, but>??)

it was NO longer a semi auto rifle, when it wouldn;t work as such! due to being modified to NOT work as semi
he proved it in court, costs him time and money to fight it, but he won?

so food for thought on them dead set on using a AR
NO gas tube, makes it JUST as manually operated ONLY< , as a pump, lever, or bolt gun is ??

That would not be legal in PA, it would have to be permanently modified to be a bolt action. No you would not beat it in court, it has been tried. After all these years, don't you think people would be doing what you are recommending if it were legal?

well I know 3 guys that did it went to court in lackawanna county ,m and won

its the same deal is if you modify any firearm
you can make it so it works as the legally defined wording
and it reads must be manually operated
thus , again removing gas tube, makes a gas operated AR, a single shot, and MUST be manually operated to work
thus, meets criteria

I again think MOST won;t do this due to NOT wanting the grief, of fighting to prove the right here?
and also, WHY do it, its sort of DUMB,
I am NOT promoting this at all
but am saying it is possible to do so
and again I seen it first hand, get tossed out of court when it was taken there >
SHow me a case where it was NOT!
NOT trying to debate or argue, I just know what I seen with my two eye's and the verdict the judge threw out!
this was in 1998-1998 era

also, I do not see it needing to be permanently changed, as when you hunt with a shotgun, you need a plug , but it can be removed< , same like mod here, as an example
so gun can be used other area's!

also, think of this as a BAD example
BUT if you Modify a AR into full AUTO< it is no longer considered a SEMI?
the reverse is then also true, by BATF rules as well?
I was a gun dealer so, have a little bit of knowledge in this area?
but I am NOT saying I know it all or an expert or to take my advice as 100%< if you desire to do so, its on you
best to ask better than me for insight!
I just again seen it done and what happened, and know what the BATF called each type of firearm!
had them in my shop on several occasions(was a class 3 dealer)

I don't have to think of as anything but illegal. A semi auto is a semi auto until it is permanently made into a rifle that can no longer shoot in a semi auto mode. It would be easy enough for a person to field strip a rifle and remove the part that makes it a semi if he sees someone approaching him. That is why it is not legal to do a temporary fix. I am not going to argue with you, I know how the law is enforced, I enforced it for over 30 years and I know what the PGC tells people who ask if they can make a temporary fix to a semi auto gun. No good comes of telling people they can get away with an illegal act.

Jake, have you ever been on a heavily populated State Game Land on opening day rifle? Say like any of them in South Central PA? I lived around 2 miles from one such Game Land and I can tell you with absolutely NO uncertainty whatsoever that it is one scary place to be!! And I've been under fire in war zones more times than I care to think about! A sea of orange and probably half of them shooting as fast as they can operate their actions so that the fella 20 yards from them can't jump their deer! You put a 10 round mag AR in the hands of some of those idiots and you can bet your last dollar there are going to be problems. Runnin and gunnin is 2nd nature to a lot of those guys and with a semi they will be even MORE dangerous out there. I know this sounds like an "anti" rant but it's just plain old common sense and experience of the situations in many Pa State Game Lands. OT and many others from PA will more than likely agree with me on this issue. Now granted not ALL game lands in PA are overloaded like many are in SCPA and in those areas I would be fine with it. But you get a bunch of idiots in an overcrowded GL with semi's and you are going to have problems. Just simple math there.

I'm not telling anyone to do an illegal act
I know the guys that went to court, I was in court with them, and them won?
when the BATF has been in my shop, they classified firearms as how they worked at the time they handled them, if modified, while IN there hands, and that is what defines the firearm in there class?
this too is s FACT, as I knew it when I sold guns and had to follow regs to do so, for 10+ yrs!
AN AR is Not something than can be easily and FAST In field, broken down to remove the gas tube
BY using this example, you can also then say a GUY can just remove the plug of a shotgun at will and then put it BACK if they see a game warden?
if you wanted to NO
and then the issue would be to PROVE The person was doing such!

NOW if a guy was caught with an AR and had all the parts in his possession, I can see your side,
But if they didn;t(as my friends didn;t)
I cannot see how the firearm can be said to be SEMI AUTO< if it didn;t fit the definition of the classification of a SEMI AUTO
By BATF rules
if it HAS to be manual worked to load a second round it is NOT SEMI AUTO!
NOT trying to argue here, just stating what I know to be true

I will BET you never came across a person hunting with a gas tubed removed AR 15 in your 30 yrs of a game warden, , YES or NO?

as like I said, its DUMB thing to do, and onl;y reaosn I can see anyone really wanting to is to be a smart ass and , the 3 people I knew did so to prove a point, and they won!
they went looking for trouble and found it, yet were 100% in the right at the end
I see NO reason to ever do so
so I am NOT saying its something to do, nor,am I saying every court will find on your side if you do
going to court can be a gamble??
but legally as far as I know a modified gun that ONLY functions in the state its in, is considered what it is by the state it is in!
per BATF rules!
and even if I am correct, in the rule and regulations hand book, it describes a semi auto as a gun that self loads, , so a AR< without a gas tube, will NOT do as such! as it has been modified to NOT work as such!

to each there own, I could again care less?

my wish is that the game commission would not approve it. don't feel we need semi autos to hunt deer. just my opinion.

Look, mrbb, your thinking doesn't mean a thing and the fact that some judge found someone not guilty doesn't mean a thing because unless the verdict was in an appellate court it means nothing for any case except that case, it does not mean those people were right in their actions, if indeed they exist, and it doesn't mean others will not be prosecuted for the same violation. People are found not guilty every day, that does not mean they have not violated the law. Your rationalization is just that, rationalization, because unless a semi auto firearm is rendered a manually operated firearm permanently and can be put back into semi auto mode in the field, it is still a semi auto firearm. I have told you how the law is enforced, not how I think it should be enforced and I am done, so rant on if you like but you will still be wrong in your thinking because that is not how the law is enforced the way the law is enforced.

I actually stated, things if court can always go goofy? all the more so in today's world,
BUT legal definitions are what they are and in laws, and cannot be changed!


and I Actually believe your wrong, as a gas tube isn't really something that can be replaced in the field, as the gas tube has to be pinned in, and most need tools to do so, or cannot do with them!
its NOT a simple thing to replace while a warden is approaching you by any means!
this is NOT an argument here, you have your opinion and I have mine
till laws and codes come out here, I will share one at the bottom on my side?


so, baesed on what I know. there is NO law that says a it has to be preeminently modified, to be called a single shot rifle, it just as to ONLY function as one, , NO self loading or unloading and has to be manually operated! as definition of it!

what about adding a Muzzleloader upper to an AR
or a , the FACT they and make single shot uppers?
these too will ALL make using an AR in the field right now, and it being legal in the right hunt/season!


SO< again, I will strongly disagree with you, based on things I know to be, true,
if you KNOW the law, Please share the code with me
this is NY's
have a look, I gather Pa's is about the same
and the BATF's is also, on this
PER NY's code, didn't see Pa's handy!


Semi-autois well defined in PL265.00, and an AR w/o a gas tube is not semi-auto by definition

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-la...ct-265-00.html

21. “Semiautomatic” means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell. - See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-la....TuJHO3SX.dpuf

Okay, not trying to step on toes here OT but you are right and wrong at the same time. What you said about the firearm being able to put it back to semi operation in the field is correct. BUT you obviously haven't dealt with AR's or you would know putting a gas tube back in in the field is a bit more complicated than a simple field strip. It for damn sure aint something that "you could put back in or take out when you saw someone coming". Putting a plug back into a shotgun mag is quite a bit easier than the gas tube on an AR. Granted what mrbb was alluding to was sheer stupidity (I believe he said so himself) but he is in essence correct as far as the law goes. I personally can't see why anyone would want to do it myself other than just being a smartass as there is absolutely no advantage to a manually operated AR over anything.

the federal definition of a a semi auto and its code

18 USCS § 921(28)- The term "semiautomatic rifle" means any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.


SO< again a modified AR that does NOT fit this, is NOT legally classified as a semi auto rifle!

yes I agree here, I am NOT saying it should be done, nor is it worth doing, you;d just be asking for trouble and WHY do IT

but if one wanted to it legally can be done was my point
and was ONLY sort of tossed out there due to the one reply about WHAT IF I only had one rifle
well if that's all you could afford and have, then legally you could do this

I would NOT waste my time, push my luck, or hassle a warden to make a call on this, its DUMB 100% IMO

BUT then again a LOT of laws are DUMB too
and well, PEOPLE LOL

but the law is what it is?

My ? is why. What reason are they doing this for???

I say 80/20 chance NO.

PA was the first state to not allow semi automatic single projectile firearms to be used for hunting. Since then there have been people trying to change that. There are always those who want more, no matter if it is needed or necessary, that is human nature. I have one, I want to hunt with it is the reason. There is now a board of Commissioners that is willing to consider the change. The question is, are they willing to do it with a ground swell against it. Based on the comparison with the never ending attempts to get Sunday hunting, I have to say the chances are not good because the only reason PA does not have Sunday hunting of all wildlife, there is Sunday hunting of some, is because of the huge out pouring of opposition to it when ever it comes up. While Sunday hunting is an issued the general assembly must deal with, and semi autos for all hunting is an issue the board of the commissioners must deal with, both are political in nature which means the general assembly will be lobbying one way ot the other so I would not bet against rejection,

As far as Sunday hunting goes, I have YET to see any LEGAL reason or CONSERVATION reason for no Sunday hunting. Hunting is not only a sport for hunters, it is also a tool for conservationists to reduce deer numbers to sustainable levels. And, quite obviously, most people can't find a lot of time through the week to hunt so through the stupidity of those in charge, they are eliminating a vital day of use for a much needed tool. So what if a couple of Sunday's are missed in church. Oh wait, the collection plates will suffer!! Can't be having that now can we!!! No Sunday hunting is just about the absolute most BASELESS regulation on PA's books. Absolutely no legal or conservation reasons behind it. And it's not the "people" rising up against it OT. It's the preachers and deacons thinking their word is the word of all in the congregations when in actuality it's not!! What the hell ever happened to the separation of church and state??

Super, PA has a lot of land owners who consider Sunday in a biblical sense, and who have made it clear they would close their land to hunting if Sunday hunting was instituted, many of these were enrolled in the PGC's public access programs. As a one time PA resident you should know how many Amish, Mennonite, Brethren and other Anabaptist churches there are in the state. Additionally there were a lot of just plain folks who opposed it. There was a large amount of outpouring of public input opposing Sunday hunting each and every time the issue came up. Each time the general assembly was considering it, they held public hearings and at the end of the public hearings the issue died, there were several times this happened. You may not agree with the reasons that people opposed the change but it was legitimate to them and to those who have to stand for re election. The general assembly and the board of commissioners must take into consideration the opinions of everyone, not just hunters when changes are made to hunting laws and regulations. So far as separation of church and state goes, that is not an issue nor can it be used to force the issue since we have Sunday hunting on several species and since the PGC has sole discretion of setting seasons and bag limits and has set Sunday as days to hunt for certain species the days of the week fall under that discretion. That said I did not take a position in Sunday hunting, I used it solely as an example of how public input can and has caused proposed hunting regulations to either pass or be rejected and it is a good analogy, albeit two different issues, the process is the same.

Except for the Amish and Mennonite I can't think of ONE single person I ever talked to about Sunday hunting that had a single word against it. And you can bet I talked to a LOT of folks about it. They went to those meetings and it was funny that even though there was a ton of them speaking FOR Sun. hunting, it was always cast down. I myself went to a few of those and saw for myself the greater numbers FOR it yet it was always struck down. Yet another instance of the few speaking for the many. It's okay to kill a yote on Sunday but not okay to kill a deer?? Gimmi a break!! It's retarded and purely based on religious fanatics and most DEFINITELY not the wishes of the masses!! I'd bet my bank account that if you polled 2500 PA hunters, 95% of them would say the exact same thing I just did.. It's a stupid and completely BASELESS regulation ruled by religious fanatics period!

I think yrs back a LOT of farmers didn't want Sunday hunting as there were a LOT more CO OP farms in the mix, and they had a stronger voice in this ruling staying this way
Sunday for many farmers was a DAY of rest and , that was there main reason, plus most back when, were more religious than I think many folks are today in general


also remember if you go back a ways., MOST all folks, or the majority of folks all worked more traditional jobs with traditional hours, working Monday thru Friday

where as now we have a LOT more folks working all sorts of hrs and days

so many view time off on weekends NOW more as THERE time

I personally don't have an issue one way or another, but in the past preferred to have sundays off
but my reason was I hunted every day I could for 3 months straight , and I needed some reason to MAKE me take a day off LOL

so this law gave me a day off to rest up or travel to other area's HAHA!

There is the rub, poll 2500 PA citizens and you would get a different result. The public input regarding Sunday hunting has historically been against it. Letters and phone calls in addition to those who show up at public meetings are all counted. Once again, this thread is not a Sunday hunting thread but a semi auto firearms for hunting thread and I now regret using it as an analogy as to how public opinion can sink a proposed change to a hunting law or regulation.

I once spoke to a game warden and asked if I removed the magazine from my 10-22 and hunted squirrels would that be legal? I was told definitely not as the shell was automatically ejected plus it was not permanent thus not disabling the semi auto capability.