PA Hunters - Read This!
10-22-2003, 11:12 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Jim Thorpe, PA
Posts: 536
PA Hunters - Read This!
Gary Alt may have been wrong!!?? He is now conducting a study to see if acid rain is the real culprit in our lack of forest regeneration , and not because we have (had) too many deer! Seems that after killing 1 1/2 million deer in the last few years, the forests are not showing signs of regeneration like he told (sold) us.
10-22-2003, 01:15 PM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
i watched a video today about a study done in pa...the clear cut it then fenced some so the deer couldnt get in and left the rest to the deer.....the area inside looked like a jungle......and makes alota sense.....its a good video..it was called deer management...its one of the game commision videos though.....but it does make sense being they eat over 4 pounds a day.......
10-22-2003, 01:28 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Audubon & Red Rock, Penna.
Posts: 4,472
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
We have a few acres of overgrown clearcut fenced in on our property. I can' t really tell if there' s much of a difference. I guess I really never scrutinized it very much. I think those suckers could probably jump the fence if they wanted to.
10-22-2003, 05:09 PM
#6
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: KUNKLETOWN PA United States
Posts: 872
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
i' de also like to know where you saw this buddy , can you post it , or give us a link ???
barnes , i' ve seen whitetail deer jump over a 6' high fence , trust me , they can jump
barnes , i' ve seen whitetail deer jump over a 6' high fence , trust me , they can jump
10-22-2003, 06:05 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Industry Pa. USA
Posts: 242
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
That' s an USP tactic they are spreading around right now. There is no new news, they are just restating their case to try to get more people involved in their continuing war with deer biologists. Jim Slinsky is they main spokesman and he recently published an article that seemed like something new was out and it was showing Dr. Alt was wrong all along. Yellow journalism at its worse. Old and previously refuted information was all there was in it. Just figures if he keeps throwing, maybe some mud will eventually stick.
Their problem has always been those dang deer-proof fence studies. The acid rain enters them just like they do the areas outside of the fence. The only difference is the deer. So it could make one think that deer are the reason nothing is growing outside of the fence and it isn' t the acid rain.
But no doubt about it acid rain in combination with poor soils significantly affect plant reproduction in many areas. And the habitat isn' t the only reason that we have to keep the herd populations down across the state.
But we need to understand all of this and make sure that we aren' t reducing the herds more than what is needed, but doing also what is necessary. Hunters win when they are viewed as necessary animal harvest and management tools.
Their problem has always been those dang deer-proof fence studies. The acid rain enters them just like they do the areas outside of the fence. The only difference is the deer. So it could make one think that deer are the reason nothing is growing outside of the fence and it isn' t the acid rain.
But no doubt about it acid rain in combination with poor soils significantly affect plant reproduction in many areas. And the habitat isn' t the only reason that we have to keep the herd populations down across the state.
But we need to understand all of this and make sure that we aren' t reducing the herds more than what is needed, but doing also what is necessary. Hunters win when they are viewed as necessary animal harvest and management tools.
10-22-2003, 06:22 PM
#8
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 586
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
I saw the video mauser06 is talking about, and yes it was a jungle where the deer couldnt get. Deer eat alot it makes sense what Alt is talking about. Acid rain? Its been around for years, I think its the deer.
10-22-2003, 06:54 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Jim Thorpe, PA
Posts: 536
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
Go to to read article:
http://www.tnonline.com/online/columns/connection.html
You think he is slinging bull? Where do you hunt, private land or SGL/state forest?
I have seen one deer in four days of hunting on state forest land. Years ago, my friends and I use to turkey hunt the Tiadaghton state forest, in Tioga county. It was common to see deer, so we started bowhunting it, then doe hunting it. Then one year there were no deer to be found. A park ranger told us plainly, too many deer were shot. I read this complaint all over the state. Hunting pressure was too great on public land, and deer are scarce. But the answer from the PGC/Alt is to issue more tags.
http://www.tnonline.com/online/columns/connection.html
You think he is slinging bull? Where do you hunt, private land or SGL/state forest?
I have seen one deer in four days of hunting on state forest land. Years ago, my friends and I use to turkey hunt the Tiadaghton state forest, in Tioga county. It was common to see deer, so we started bowhunting it, then doe hunting it. Then one year there were no deer to be found. A park ranger told us plainly, too many deer were shot. I read this complaint all over the state. Hunting pressure was too great on public land, and deer are scarce. But the answer from the PGC/Alt is to issue more tags.
10-22-2003, 07:07 PM
#10
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 586
RE: PA Hunters - Read This!
here is the article provided by the link MIKE has left.
At the PGC meeting on Oct. 6, 2003 Dr. Gary Alt addressed our Game Commissioners and made an unimaginable announcement. He informed the world that the PGC and DCNR have decided to conduct a joint " Forest Restoration Study" to determine why our forests are not vigorously regenerating. Results will be released in 2005.
After killing 1.5 million deer in the past three years plus another possible million as fetuses, Dr. Alt is admitting that his massive deer reduction program has not jump-started forest regeneration.
Actually, many forewarned Dr. Alt that his plan would do little to improve regeneration.
Dr. Alt spent a mere 30 minutes on a cell phone call with a bad connection speaking to Dr. William Sharpe of PSU, probably the world authority on acid rain deposition. Apparently, Dr. Alt didn' t want to find any other solution to improving forest regeneration other than reducing our deer herd. He forged ahead executing the largest deer reduction program in the history of this state.
May I remind you of his whirlwind statewide romp? Dr. Alt told us our high deer densities may cause our forests to never come back and our buck to doe ratios are unnatural and so is our breeding ecology. " Chicken Little the sky is falling" is the message I heard from Dr. Alt. I can' t recall being brow beaten by any state employee on any issue as Dr. Alt beat up on our hunters.
Additionally, almost none of Dr. Alt' s theories or conclusions about our deer herd has proven to be true. Even his beloved antler restrictions are in deep trouble. In the coming weeks we will revisit his theories one at a time and I will relay to you what the top deer biologists of this country have to say about them.
As I think about Dr. Alt' s relentless assault on our deer, my suspicions wander deep into the politics of deer management. Dr. Alt is most often seen in the company of the biodiversity crowd, deer-haters and the pro-merger proponents. Could his deer reduction program actually be an effort to weaken hunter retention and cause a financial crisis at the PGC? Dr. Alt does seem to be more closely aligned with DCNR in his views than our mainstream hunters. Remember his official deer management plan without a single number? Science is numbers my friend, not anecdotal observations. Do you recall Dr. Alt wanted to count flowers in the woods as an indicator of deer densities? Could he have been appeasing Audubon with that proposal? If Game and Fish are merged, doesn' t DCNR (and possibly Dr. Alt) emerge as the winner and controller of our State Game Lands?
Dr. Alt has certainly achieved national notoriety for his deer reduction efforts. Deer reduction is a popular discussion in many states and Dr. Alt has interviewed with a number of them. Why hasn' t another state offered him the opportunity to apply his management strategies in their state? I talk to many of the same people Dr. Alt knows. He has informed none of them that PA has the worst acid deposition problem on the planet. Other states are convinced we are so overrun with deer that we must clear our driveways of deer to get to the street. Is sensible deer management Dr. Alt' s main objective or is enhancing his resume?
I smell a skunk in the woodpile. Dr. Alt has informed our Commissioners we must continue with deer reduction in almost the same breath he used to admit regeneration is not occurring. He claims our deer herd is still growing. He is proposing the privatization of the DMAP program. He wishes to extend doe season another week. He is ignoring the potential genetic damage of antler restrictions.
Dr. Alt has committed the most basic error in all of deer management. He misinterpreted deer impacts for high deer densities. He ignored the reality of acid rain as the core problem and shifted blame to our deer. He is now admitting his failure by announcing a " Forest Restoration Study."
I see this latest development as a mortal sin by Dr. Gary Alt. If his massive deer reduction plan has failed to improve forest regeneration than the impetus for his entire plan has collapsed. Isn' t it time to hold Dr. Alt to the same standards and accountability that is demanded of deer managers in every state? How long do we blindly accept Dr. Alt' s theories without asking him to put forth science and hard numbers? Is Dr. Alt actually an agent for merger?
This writer believes it is time to ask our legislators to approve an outside, independent audit of our deer management program, past, present and future.
Obviously, blaming our deer for the collapse of our forests is now clearly, bullpucky.
At the PGC meeting on Oct. 6, 2003 Dr. Gary Alt addressed our Game Commissioners and made an unimaginable announcement. He informed the world that the PGC and DCNR have decided to conduct a joint " Forest Restoration Study" to determine why our forests are not vigorously regenerating. Results will be released in 2005.
After killing 1.5 million deer in the past three years plus another possible million as fetuses, Dr. Alt is admitting that his massive deer reduction program has not jump-started forest regeneration.
Actually, many forewarned Dr. Alt that his plan would do little to improve regeneration.
Dr. Alt spent a mere 30 minutes on a cell phone call with a bad connection speaking to Dr. William Sharpe of PSU, probably the world authority on acid rain deposition. Apparently, Dr. Alt didn' t want to find any other solution to improving forest regeneration other than reducing our deer herd. He forged ahead executing the largest deer reduction program in the history of this state.
May I remind you of his whirlwind statewide romp? Dr. Alt told us our high deer densities may cause our forests to never come back and our buck to doe ratios are unnatural and so is our breeding ecology. " Chicken Little the sky is falling" is the message I heard from Dr. Alt. I can' t recall being brow beaten by any state employee on any issue as Dr. Alt beat up on our hunters.
Additionally, almost none of Dr. Alt' s theories or conclusions about our deer herd has proven to be true. Even his beloved antler restrictions are in deep trouble. In the coming weeks we will revisit his theories one at a time and I will relay to you what the top deer biologists of this country have to say about them.
As I think about Dr. Alt' s relentless assault on our deer, my suspicions wander deep into the politics of deer management. Dr. Alt is most often seen in the company of the biodiversity crowd, deer-haters and the pro-merger proponents. Could his deer reduction program actually be an effort to weaken hunter retention and cause a financial crisis at the PGC? Dr. Alt does seem to be more closely aligned with DCNR in his views than our mainstream hunters. Remember his official deer management plan without a single number? Science is numbers my friend, not anecdotal observations. Do you recall Dr. Alt wanted to count flowers in the woods as an indicator of deer densities? Could he have been appeasing Audubon with that proposal? If Game and Fish are merged, doesn' t DCNR (and possibly Dr. Alt) emerge as the winner and controller of our State Game Lands?
Dr. Alt has certainly achieved national notoriety for his deer reduction efforts. Deer reduction is a popular discussion in many states and Dr. Alt has interviewed with a number of them. Why hasn' t another state offered him the opportunity to apply his management strategies in their state? I talk to many of the same people Dr. Alt knows. He has informed none of them that PA has the worst acid deposition problem on the planet. Other states are convinced we are so overrun with deer that we must clear our driveways of deer to get to the street. Is sensible deer management Dr. Alt' s main objective or is enhancing his resume?
I smell a skunk in the woodpile. Dr. Alt has informed our Commissioners we must continue with deer reduction in almost the same breath he used to admit regeneration is not occurring. He claims our deer herd is still growing. He is proposing the privatization of the DMAP program. He wishes to extend doe season another week. He is ignoring the potential genetic damage of antler restrictions.
Dr. Alt has committed the most basic error in all of deer management. He misinterpreted deer impacts for high deer densities. He ignored the reality of acid rain as the core problem and shifted blame to our deer. He is now admitting his failure by announcing a " Forest Restoration Study."
I see this latest development as a mortal sin by Dr. Gary Alt. If his massive deer reduction plan has failed to improve forest regeneration than the impetus for his entire plan has collapsed. Isn' t it time to hold Dr. Alt to the same standards and accountability that is demanded of deer managers in every state? How long do we blindly accept Dr. Alt' s theories without asking him to put forth science and hard numbers? Is Dr. Alt actually an agent for merger?
This writer believes it is time to ask our legislators to approve an outside, independent audit of our deer management program, past, present and future.
Obviously, blaming our deer for the collapse of our forests is now clearly, bullpucky.