The PA GAME COMMISSION
 

Finally stepped up to the plate and hit a HR!. You can now shoot a Buck in the early Archery season in WMA 2b,5c and 5D. I hated this early season. It put the Bucks on alert for 2 weeks before you could hunt them. I still wish they would just KNOCKOUT the early season and go back to the Statewide open date.

HJ

So, you would rather have less time for people to hunt deer in PA? I think you would have a lot of opposition.

How is the current setup done in PA

PA used to have a short archery season, either sex. Then a 2 week buck season and a three day doe season, then a short archery season and flintlock season for two weeks after Christmas. It then evolved into this:

DEER, ARCHERY (Antlered and Antlerless) WMUs 2B, 5C and 5D: Sept. 19- Nov. 28 and Dec. 26-Jan. 23, 2016. One antlerless deer with each required antlerless license. One antlered deer per hunting license year.



DEER, ARCHERY (Antlered and Antlerless) Statewide: Oct. 3-Nov. 14 and Dec. 26-Jan. 9. One antlered deer per hunting license year. One antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER (Antlered and Antlerless) WMUs 2B, 5A, 5B, 5C and 5D: Nov. 30-Dec. 12. One antlered deer per hunting license year. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER (Antlered Only) WMUs 1A, 1B, 2A, 2C, 2D, 2E, 2F, 2G, 2H, 3A 3B, 3C, 3D, 4A, 4B, 4C, 4D and 4E: Nov. 30-Dec. 4. One antlered deer per hunting license year. (Holders of valid DMAP antlerless deer permits may harvest antlerless deer on DMAP properties during this period.)



DEER (Antlered and Antlerless) WMUs 1A, 1B, 2A, 2C, 2D, 2E, 2F, 2G, 2H, 3A 3B, 3C, 3D, 4A, 4B, 4C, 4D and 4E: Dec. 5-12. One antlered deer per hunting license year. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER, ANTLERLESS (Statewide): Oct. 22-24. Junior and Senior License Holders, Mentored Youth Permit Holders, Disabled Person Permit (to use a vehicle) Holders, and Pennsylvania residents serving on active duty in U.S. Armed Services or in the U.S. Coast Guard only, with required antlerless license. Also included are persons who have reached or will reach their 65th birthday in the year of the application for a license and hold a valid adult license, or qualify for license and fee exemptions under section 2706. One antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER, ANTLERLESS MUZZLELOADER (Statewide): Oct. 17-24. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER, ANTLERED OR ANTLERLESS FLINTLOCK (Statewide): Dec. 26-Jan. 9. One antlered deer per hunting license year, or one antlerless deer and an additional antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER, ANTLERED OR ANTLERLESS FLINTLOCK (WMUs 2B, 5C, 5D): Dec. 26-Jan. 23. One antlered deer per hunting license year, or one antlerless deer and an additional antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER, ANTLERLESS EXTENDED REGULAR FIREARMS: (Allegheny, Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Philadelphia counties): Dec. 26-Jan. 23. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



DEER, ANTLERLESS (Military Bases): Hunting permitted on days established by the U.S. Department of the Army at Letterkenny Army Depot, Franklin County; New Cumberland Army Depot, York County; and Fort Detrick, Raven Rock Site, Adams County. An antlerless deer with each required antlerless license.



As everywhere, some people are happy and some are not. PA now has more time to hunt deer than any time in its history. The big buck crowd and the archers are the most upset because they want the erly part of the season for themselves.

I think your wrong. Most of the Hunters I know and talk to hate the early season DOWN here in 5C and 5D.

HJ

? When and what year did the the Gun hunters/Little Buck Hunters hunt Deer before the Greedy early BIG BUCK I want the early season all to myself Archers? In the 46 years that I been hunting PA I can't think Gun season was ever before Archery Season. If Bowhunters have time to hunt deer more than any time in history why is the Big Buck Crowd upset? For the record I am very happy with the Deerhunting in PA and I gun/Archery hunt in Special Regs 5c ,5d and the Big Wood's of NE PA. I think we all know why it has evolved into what it is today, and its not because of the Early/BIG BUCK CROWD. Where have you gone DR Gary Alt??????? LOL!!!!!

HJ

When? Before there was a specific archery season. The first archery season was in 1951. The horn hunters don't like the archers having first crack at the buck and the archers want to keep pushing the season earlier and longer. I have been around a long time as well and I knew the guy who was responsble for having an archery only season, an ex olympic archer from Lancaster Co. and I watched what is happening. Too bad Ed Wentzler is not still speaking for the UBP.

What year was that? A LOOOOOONG time ago. If you look at most states their Archery seasons are still way longer than PA. I hunt NJ and you can Bow hunt Deer from Sept til the end of Feb. Someone has to get first crack at the Deer. What do you think would happen if the Gun Hunters got the first crack at the Deer in early Sept/Oct? Yes Ed Wentzler was a great leader for the UBP. The UBP is a shell of what it once was. Thats for sure!

My post has the when, 1951, the first archery only season. A man named Clayton Shenk who was an Olympic archer and an active oficer in the Lancaster federation for years, lobbied the legislature for a long time to have a season just for archers. Since that 1st season in 1951, the legnth of the archery season has increased. One year the Motor City whack job Ted Ngent,came to a PA Game Commission to lobby the board for a longer archery season so they could hunt the rut, that was 1993 when the season was extended for 2 weeks. If gun hunters got 1st crack at the buck, as you ask, the archers would complain, the same as the gun hunters do now. Everyone wants to be first.

Yup, will take me a few weeks to figure out the PA season breakdown you just posted OT, LOL.

Guess the question would be, are the deer over harvested under harvested or just right? What have the biologist saying about the deer populations. If these areas are under harvested then it would make sense to extend the season by some method. Whether that would be opening a firearm season a few days earlier or opening archery a few days earlier. Either way this has a motto, a thousand ways to skin a cat attached to it. Now if each area your talking about is over harvested then lets face reality and say the seasons need to be cut to protect the deer numbers. If cuts are not done in time you will easily get into a position that even more drastic cuts will be required further down the road.

Salty, for decades PA was not killing enough deer and there was widespread areas across the state with terrible browse lines, particularly in the big woods counties. Every time the biologists asked for more doe licenses to be issued the hunters would go nuts and whine and cry and go to the legislature who would threaten the PGC with certain actions if they issued more doe licenses and the board of commissioners would not have the guts to do the right thing and allow more doe to be taken. Finally, there came a board who had toe courage to do what should have been done decades ago and issued a lot more doe licenses to cut back the herd. In fact a person could now get 3 doe licenses where in the ast you could only get one. After a few years the herd started to be reduced enough to allow the habitat to recover in some areas. Hunters who grew up being able to go into the woods and sit on a stump and kill a deer with no problem, suddenly had to start actually hunting deer and again the cry went up, we are destroying the deer herd, they are almost extinct and a lot of other knee jerk nonsense. The problem is, a couple of generations of hunters thought having too many deer was the way it was supposed to be and didn't like it when hunting became hunting instead of just killing. The fight goes on today. Some areas had the licenses reduced a little because the habitat was showing good signs of recovery and some had the number of license reduced because of social preasure. The bottom line is, they just didn't and don't or refuse to understand that if we go back to the very restrictive numbers on doe licenses, all the habitat recovery will be undone in a very short period of time because the population of deer will skyrocket again and we will be back to square one. Had the boards of commissioners decades ago done their job and listened to the wildlife managers instead of pandering to hunters and legislators the drastic action in reduction, would not hae been necessary. It was so bad, that the biologist who was asked to take on the deer management position by the board of commissioners with the promise that they would support him no matter how bad things got, was recieving death threats and wore bady armor when he taveled around the state. When the board broke their promise to him and started to cave in to the presure from hunters and the legislators pandering to them, the biologist resigned and retired. Deer management has always been a contentious issue in PA.

Each state has the same issues and the citizens often times do not come to the table fully informed or even partially informed. We deal with this and are currently fighting this with fishery management here in NC.

The one truth whether it is fishery or wildlife management is and always has been, manage for the resource first and all other things (hunter, fisherman, guides, etc) will fall into place. People will not like it, but at least your kids and grandchildren will not hear about species like the passenger pigeon, Carolina parakeet, and may one day be able to eat another canvasback fed on wild celery from the Chesapeake Bay.

That is the way to go, the right thing to do, we just need people in charge who are willing to weather the storm long enough for it to pass.

The problem with what you guys are stating is pretty much the case in about every state and that is, rather than listen to the paid biologists who are using approved science techniques to try to do their job, ugly old politics enters the equation and people like Alt have to literally run for their lives. Sad, very very sad!

It has nothing to do with who get's first crack or who's complaining. No way the PGC would hold a 2 week Buck gun season the time of year Archery season is. That would be fatal to the Deer Herd of PA. Besides the Special Reg areas how much has the general Archery season change since 1993? It went to 6 weeks and the Late winter Archery/Flintlock. What is it now? Compared to most other states not the long at all. Which I like, it seems to be working if you ask me. The PGC needs to stay the course for the Herd, Antler size and the health of our Forrest's

Hatchet Jack

I know there will never be an early two week buck season barring a huge drop in hunting numbers. But then, who thought we would ever have a two week doe season and longer in the special regs areas. That was to make a point. No matter who goes first, those who don't will not like it. Granted, anyone can get an archery license and hunt in both seasons but we both know not everyone wants to hunt in archery season or put n the time to be good with a bow. One thing most people forget, is the states with few exceptions have a lot less hunters than PA does, even with the loss of hunter numbers over the years, so they can afford to have longer seasons. Some states with long seasons and large bag limits on deer still don't take as. You are correct, the PGC needs to stay the course on their management program, tweaking here and there when they must or can. However, the larger antler size is a side effect of getting a better balance of buck to doe and allowing our buck to grow a few more years, not the intent of the management program. Actually I am happy to talk to somone from PA who likes the management program for a change instead of a chronic, "there are not enough deer, or the deer are extinct complainer. Good luck in the upcoming season.

Whoever thinks that putting the gun hunters out instead of the Archers in early season has absolutely NO clue about deer hunting. ESPECIALLY in Pa. If you have never hunted in Pa on opening day of gun season then you don't know what WWIII sounds like. Cuzz that what it sounds like around 7am to around 10am on opening day rifle! You think the deer are spooky after early archery? Deer after the first couple of hours opening day of rifle look like crack addicts on a 2 week bender!

Correct me if I am wrong here Oldtimr but I believe Pa is still the leader in Archery license sales in the country correct? And with Pa now allowing the use of crossbows without a disability permit in regular archery has only INCREASED those sales. Hell my tags were routinely filled in Archery season and I was picky about which Does and Bucks to take. I only took the scrub bucks that I knew would never be anything but a scrawny 6 point doing nothing but taking up resources and usually older Does past their prime. For gun season I would go down to Bucks and Chester counties and fill a few tags on Does to max out the Whitetail chest freezer. I know the deer numbers in the Poc area were pretty much decimated but you've informed me that they are bouncing back around that area. I know there for a while in a lot of areas up there you wouldn't see a deer for miles. Not even a track. And that was in a few areas that I always saw a good number of deer.

Something else Oldtimr, it wasn't "just" the PGC that had something to do with getting the deer herd under control. The major car insurance companies were lobbying HARD to them threatening to raise premiums to a skyrocketing rate because of so many deer/car collisions. So as usual, it had little to do with a healthy deer herd and more to do with money, the all powerful dollar said do something and it got done!

No, you are absolutly misinformed! The insurance companies never, and I said never, had a blessed thing to do with the deer management program. They never lobbied the Commission to increase the number of deer killed and I mean never. I was in attendance at commission meeting from 1988 until 2007 and never once did any representive of any vehicle insurance company ask the commission to increase the deer harvest. That is just another myth bantied about by people who don't know what they are talking about. Just think about it. Why would the vehicle insurance companies worry about deer vehicle collisions? If it starts to cost them money, they simpley raise the rates in PA, they don't threaten anyone, they just do it. Presure by insurance companies is nothing but a load of nonsense. Before you deny what I have said is true, post evidence that it ever happened. Times, dates, copies of letters to the commission, minutes of a commission meeting showing a representative from an insurance company testifying at a commission asking for a higher deer harvest. It never happened. For the record, I never said the commission would ever open rifle season prior to archery season, I made a point to say if that ever happened, the archers would be complaining instead of the gun hunters. Up until your last post I thought perhaps you knew what was going on, it appears I was mistaken about that.

While I don't have paperwork, what I DO have is a wife that worked in the Insurance industry for 30+ years and 12 of those years was in Pa. SHE is the one that told me the insurance companies were putting pressure on those that had influence on the commission. The reason was because they WERE losing money in Pa and had been for several years. The Insurance companies were trying to get the costs down plain and simple. They put it quite simply to the ones that had the influence either do something about it or they were going to have to skyrocket the premiums. That's not a rumor, myth, or anything else of the sort, it's plain and simple fact that is WELL known. You obviously have a bug up your butt with ANYONE that has anything to say about the PGC but you have some serious blinders on when it comes to simple and WELL KNOWN facts. I didn't say that it was the ONLY reason they did it, just that it was a contributing factor in the decision. Now according to the wife, who just looked this stuff up for me by the way, deer/car collisions are some 35% lower than they were 12 years ago and the general car insurance premium's have risen within the normal rate per annual cost graduation as most other states. (her words not mine I THINK that means they haven't went nuts). And are you really naive enough to think that there would be ANY minutes from the commission meetings that would show an outside source pressuring the committee? Especially where money more than likely changed hands? Come on Oldtimr, you've been on this Earth long enough to know better than that! You can't sit there and HONESTLY say that the deer/car collisions had absolutely NOTHING to do with them acting! Take your blinders off, get Dr. Alt off that pedestal and see the PGC for what it is, was, and always has been, a group of people plain and simple. With people come greed, mistakes, theft, and the rare PROPER things done. I DO know whats going on in the hunting world, have for many years. I don't listen to rumors most times, I go with what I see for myself and SOMETIMES take FEW people at their word.

As far as the gun/archery part, I never stated that YOU were the one saying it would be better for Gun first. It was back on the first page someone was stating it would be better.

You are correct, it was hatchet jack who said that, however it doesn't matter,because what I said was still to make the point. As far as what your wife told you, it is not true it is a myth that has been around for a long time started by people who did not want the deer herd reduced and were looking for someone to blame for applying preasure for reduction. If there is one thing I am not, it is naive and I don't wear blinders! What I said it absolutly true. Your wife is wrong about lobbying or presure by insurance companies. If you want to believe it, I don't care, just don't try to put it out as the truth. By the way, commission meetings have always been recorded, either by a stenographer or now by electronic means, it is required. To insinuate that certain things may be deleted from the minutes or not entered at all is ridiculous and a desperate attempt to bolster nonsensical allegations. Outside entities have always lobbied the commission to either do or not do things, a common thing to happen, and at open public meetings. For the record, I didn't say deer car collissions had nothing to do with reducing the deer herd, obviously it did because the numbers of them clearly showed there were far too many deer in the state, what I said was insurance companies had nothing to do with deer management decisions. Did you really expect the number of deer vehicle collisions to go up after over a decade of serious deer reduction efforts? That doesn't prove insurance companies were lobbying the PGC for deer reduction. The wildlife managers were well aware of that, hence the reason they worked since the 70s to make it happen but were unsuccessful due to hunters lobbying the Board of Commissioners and the legislature not to reduce the herd. The numbers going down only show the reduction program is working When you have been involved in wildlife management in PA for over 3 decades and have attended as many commission meeting as I have and know the players on both sides of the table as I do, perhaps you will have the knowledge to attempt to tell me what is going on in PA from where you live in Illinois, until then, figures on deer/vehicle collissions from your wife is not a reliable source of evidence of anything to prove your incorrect claim, they are meaninless numbers when used to make a claim that insurance companies had anything to do with PA deer management. To insinuate that I put Gary Ault on a pedistal is ludicris, while he did a good job, I didn't like him personally, that and the nonsense that I am naive and don't see what is happening around me is also ridiculous and pretty bold since you do not know me. Generally that kind of thing is used by those who have no facts and is called a red herring, used to take peoples attention away from the facts and is weak! If those you take at their word told you what you wrote above, you need better sources. What you are claiming is not true, I could say more but I will leave it at that.

Thanks. Good luck on your upcoming season.

You are welcome, get a bigun.

That is absolute and utter nonsense.I've owned an insurance agency for the past 25 years and I can guarantee you that not only has the insurance industry not lobbied anyone for less deer in Pa,they actually could care less.Deer claims are a very small percentage of the total loss ratio.However,what they are is predictable from year to year.That predictability allows them adjust premiums accordingly and make a profit.Also,in the vast majority of cases collision rates are much higher than comprehensive rates.As an insurance agent,I watch my loss ratio very closely.Big claims like fires and multi-vehicle collisions concern me.I don't even pay attention to deer claims because they're small and they don't add up to anything worth worrying about.

Thank you Doug, I was hoping someone in the industry would chime in.

That urban legend drives me up a wall.When people hit deer,it's dangerous,inconvenient and it costs the consumer money so any state agency obviously wants to reduce that risk.The big issue was with the habitat.It was impacted so greatly in many parts of the state that severe herd reductions were a necessity.Herd reductions in Pa had nothing to do with the insurance industry lobbying or paying anyone off.

Unfortunately, there are some people who will never be convinced, the truth is too inconvenient so it is easier to blame others. The truth of the matter is, that the fault for the overgrown herd lays with the previous boards of commissioners who did not have the courage to do the right thing when presured by hunters and legislators to let the herd grow. Now it appears the myth has made it outside our borders. Nice to see you post again.

Thanks,unfortunately the current board is once again playing the 'SOCIAL CONCERNS" card.In a few years the herd will be out of control again and any gains with the habitat will be lost.The current BOC rejected several of DCNR's dmap applications around here based on social concerns.

That is unfortunate. We need Commissioners who don't think they are elected public servants. They are appointed to represent the resource first and hunters "wants" based on self interest needs to take a back seat.

Nobody ever stated in this thread that it would be better for a Gun first season before Archery season.

HJ

For the record. Hatchet Jack never said that!

Hatchet Jack

HJ, I didn't say you actually said that, you and I were discussing archery season being earlier than gun season and you asked when did gun come in first and I told you and gave you the year. there was more discussion between us before the thread got derailed by another poster bringing up the nonsense of the insurance companies becoming involved in lobbying for less deer. I was refering to the discussion, that you and I were having and I was the one who asked what would happen if it did happen if the PGC did open buck season before archery, just as an example of it all depends on whose ox is getting gored when to comes to complaining. This is what happens when a thread gets diverted by someone who wasn't involved in the origional conversation and intentions get lost. Have a good one.

No problem . have a good one .

HJ

I believe the Insurance Co,s had a lot too do with Pa.s deer HR. There are to many backroom deals made in the Rotundra in Harrisburg notice I didn't say Emlenton Ave. Who would have ever thought that Pa. would have a Porcupine season but we do now.You don't have to look far to see who got this started. Guess what was introduced to eradicate the Porcupine you guessed it Mr.Fisher. Now the Fisher is causing big troubles with everything else except deer. You name it he,s eating it. Rabbits, Pheasants, Turkeys, and on and on. So now there is a season open for the Fisher who was supposed to solve the Porcupines misbehavings eating tree bark killing trees before their time or eating the metal signs that DCNR puts up. Do I believe their was a meeting that took place because of the Porcupine darn tootin there was.:wave:

And what evidence do you have to support your position that the insurance companies have anything to do with Pa's deer herd?Were there meeting about the reintroduction of fishers?Of course there were and their reintroduction was public knowledge.

I do have to get one thing strait.Are you saying that the insurance industry lobbied the PGC or legislators?

The same evidence you have. Are you the CEO of all the Allstate insurance companies in Pa. and your gonna type on this board that backroom deals aren't done with the GC.:alien: And then my second part of my post why would you have a porcupine season come on Dce just a little out of the extranorarily don't you think a porcupine season for real. Would you say Collins Pine company went to a GC. meeting and asked for a porcupine season. Sure the Fisher was public knowledge but it was reintroduced to eradicate the porcupine period. How many porcupines have you harvested DCE up there in Clearfield Co. I didn't look in the digest real good but is there a possum season Doug. Who said anything about being lobbied. Lobbied are public knowledge, backroom deals are private.:wave:

1.No I'm not the CEO but I own an agency so I have a very good handle on what's a concern and what isn't.Deer are not a concern and there isn't one bit of evidence that suggests that anyone from the insurance industry has ever asked the PGC or the legislators for less deer.
2.Collins Pines,DCNR,Farmers and other stakeholders were never shy about publicly asking for less deer.The insurance industry never has.As far as porcupines,if they're damaging tress,then that would make Collins Pines a stake holder.I have no information that they ever asked for less porkys.However,I doubt it would be a secret if they had.Porcupines are a nuisance if there's too many.Not only do they eat the bark off of trees,they damage property including buildings,vehicles,tractors,not to mention what they do to dogs.
3.I never shoot porcupines when I see them I in the woods and I see them almost every time I'm out there.We're loaded with them up here.I live on a horse farm out in the middle of no where.The dogs stay on our property but they run free when we're outside.I kill every one I see on my property.So far this year,we've only killed one.
4.Possums,skunks and weasels have no closed season other than on sundays.No,I've never killed any of them.A skunk just made a mess out of my lawn so if I see that bugger,it's gonna die.
5.We also have fishers up here but where the habitat is suitable,we still have plenty of turkeys,squirrels and grouse.What I've really noticed a sharp decline of is woodchucks.Fifteen years ago,I used to kill 60+/year.This year we've hunted them harder than usual because my son likes to shoot them.I think he's only up to 6 or so for the season and most of them were shot on our property.Last year he only killed about 15.

Doug I know you own your company you've told everyone that for yrs now Chip Ganasi owns a Ford Dealershiop to and he gets his orders from Detroit where the biggg bosses work. The rest of my post is just icing on the cake. Did you read the last Pa. Outdoors news on the habitat the GC.didnt fare well there as a matter they flunked. In a round about way it was about the regeneration in the forest THATS NOT HAPPENING after 10 yrs of HR. go figure. I could go on and on with other things also like farmers take a hit on their crops when they plant them with the turkeys destryin their winter wheat and so on lets have a more liberal season on them 3 hens 3 gobblers.I know its hard for you to go against their practices but when you put AR in a SRA area is just like whos watching the store.:rolleye0011:

Part of the problem is Insurance companies send lobbyist's to the NRC to make it look like deer collision's are worse then what they are they don's like to pay out on these type of accidents.That's why your not going to get an actual number,this has happened in other states years ago and deer populations almost where wiped completely out.Also the county i live in is set for 8 does to be taken per hunter and i have watched doe herds drop from 12-15 in the past five years to 3-4 last year.

Habitat Warrior I did,nt want you to feel like the Maytag repairman.:wave:

First, my experience with wildlife management has also been --> no auto insurance company has ever lobbied for increasing deer takes due to car accidents. The cost and payout for deer collisions is rather insignificant when compared to all other payouts. Now other groups have always tried to use auto accident numbers (provided by state farm) to promote their agenda but the data has always spoken for itself. Auto accidents coincided with the amount of motor vehicles on the road or suburban sprawling. Increase the traffic on the roads just so happened to increase deer collisions, go figure, same with reducing deer habitat you then push more deer into the roadsides.

If you believe that auto insurance companies are lobbying your commission then you can find out easily. All meetings are recording and by going over the minutes you will find all public comments and even the subjects being talked about by the commission members themselves. If someone was lobbying then you would find the commissioners speaking about increasing takes at one of these meetings. The same commissioner will also have the data available to support their request for management changes provided by the states biologists. So if you feel insurance is opting for back door deals then you will find a request not supported by the states biologists.

The farmers bureau which represents farmers nearly everywhere is a primary force along with the timber companies that speak about increases in deer takes. Farmers due to crop damage from my experience. This has been pretty universal but also the same reason programs have been opened in most states to allow farmers to harvest deer damaging their crops out of season.

Our Commissioners right now go against the GC. biologist when it comes time for doe tag allotments they squabble over them.