why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
02-01-2002, 08:09 AM
#12
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
lochorn/ledgen,
Just to analyze your situation on your farm.
Was that right?-96.5% planted??
Only 73.85 acres of bedding, staging, and daytime cover-for 2110 Acres! Not enough to hold deer-most importantly mature or wandering breeding bucks-, especially if you ever go into the cover-EVER go into the cover.
You have corn, beans, and cool weather grasses, but what about clovers, alfalfa, or other crops to hold deer during the summer? I'm sure they'll eat the beans when young, but they need diversity.
Do you practice QDM? I thought I saw on here somewhere where you do, but I wasn't sure.
Just to play devil advocate though, the majority of WI is rifle, and they have produced the most P&Y bucks or better in the last 10 years, with Buffalo county being #1, Trempaulo #10, and many others in the top 50 counties in the country for book deer. Most of the counties that are shotgun, are only shotgun for the first 2 days of the season, then the remaining 7 days are rifle. KY has a few great book counties as well-most are rifle.
The weapon is a mute point in the face of poor management. Alt's plan will be successful either way, shotgun or rifle.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
Just to analyze your situation on your farm.
Was that right?-96.5% planted??
Only 73.85 acres of bedding, staging, and daytime cover-for 2110 Acres! Not enough to hold deer-most importantly mature or wandering breeding bucks-, especially if you ever go into the cover-EVER go into the cover.
You have corn, beans, and cool weather grasses, but what about clovers, alfalfa, or other crops to hold deer during the summer? I'm sure they'll eat the beans when young, but they need diversity.
Do you practice QDM? I thought I saw on here somewhere where you do, but I wasn't sure.
Just to play devil advocate though, the majority of WI is rifle, and they have produced the most P&Y bucks or better in the last 10 years, with Buffalo county being #1, Trempaulo #10, and many others in the top 50 counties in the country for book deer. Most of the counties that are shotgun, are only shotgun for the first 2 days of the season, then the remaining 7 days are rifle. KY has a few great book counties as well-most are rifle.
The weapon is a mute point in the face of poor management. Alt's plan will be successful either way, shotgun or rifle.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
02-01-2002, 08:59 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pulaskiville
Posts: 3,533
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
Gar,
How does a weapon dictate deer size? I understand that the shotgun is far inferior to a rifle, and the kill will be lower. (But not by that much IMO)
How in the world to they have big deer in Kansas, Colorado, Nebraska, South Dakota, etc? They use rifles??? (I know, I know...they don't have a million hunters) IT'S AGRICULTURE and genetics. However, if you have deer growing larger due to food sources...the genetics will work out.
Ohio doesn't have a shotgun season for management. It's out of necessity. The southeastern portion of the state is hilly, and could probably support a rifle season. However, the other 60%+ of the state is flatter than a pancake...thus making a rifle unsafe.
I'll agree that in the populated areas shotgun seasons will succeed. I don't ever see the deer getting as big as Ohio deer, though. Maybe in certain areas, but not all over.
I'm sticking with my first statement...I think the gun hunters will be unhappy with a shotgun season.
What deer need to get big is food, genetics and a place to hide where they can grow old. Maybe PA needs to close off some small areas during gun season for "safety areas". That was some bucks may survive and grow older.
In Ohio there are tons of tree huggers that don't allow hunting. This is bad as far as hunting goes, but it lets the deer grow old. JHMH
How does a weapon dictate deer size? I understand that the shotgun is far inferior to a rifle, and the kill will be lower. (But not by that much IMO)
How in the world to they have big deer in Kansas, Colorado, Nebraska, South Dakota, etc? They use rifles??? (I know, I know...they don't have a million hunters) IT'S AGRICULTURE and genetics. However, if you have deer growing larger due to food sources...the genetics will work out.
Ohio doesn't have a shotgun season for management. It's out of necessity. The southeastern portion of the state is hilly, and could probably support a rifle season. However, the other 60%+ of the state is flatter than a pancake...thus making a rifle unsafe.
I'll agree that in the populated areas shotgun seasons will succeed. I don't ever see the deer getting as big as Ohio deer, though. Maybe in certain areas, but not all over.
I'm sticking with my first statement...I think the gun hunters will be unhappy with a shotgun season.
What deer need to get big is food, genetics and a place to hide where they can grow old. Maybe PA needs to close off some small areas during gun season for "safety areas". That was some bucks may survive and grow older.
In Ohio there are tons of tree huggers that don't allow hunting. This is bad as far as hunting goes, but it lets the deer grow old. JHMH
02-01-2002, 11:04 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Muncy PA USA
Posts: 361
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I find it more than a bit bias that a moderator whom took the time to quote you Jason, and is a professed anti crossbow hunter . allowed your post to remain even though it violates posting rules 2,3,8,12,15. Is it possible that she herself has forgotten this is a HUNTING BB not a traditional bow BB? Thus allowing pop shots at those that support the crossbow's legalization in Pa?
Edited by - Lochorns on 02/01/2002 10:22:36
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Ledgen LS,
You yourself have stated in many posts that you are of the older generation, you are retired, and frankly I don't know how any could miss the fact that you are stubborn. No matter how many valid points are brought up in response to your posts, you rarely if ever agree that differing opinions may have some merit. So I fail to see how you find Jason N's post to be threatening, harrassing or abusive. Not to mention slanderous or libelous. As for flame wars and personal attacks, you yourself have been warned more than once. You have said things far nastier than any comment here.
I thought this topic was about shotguns? Somehow amazingly, you managed to turn it into a crossbow issue once again. As far as this being a hunting forum, your right it is. A forum for hunters in the North East, no matter what weapon you choose or animal you hunt. I hunt whitetail with a compound bow in North Central PA, so I believe I "qualify" to post here.
As far as personal attacks, your right, they won't be tolerated, consider yourself warned AGAIN. You should know better than to call out a moderator on the board. Any questions? Feel free to email me.
Have a great day!
Ami
I find it more than a bit bias that a moderator whom took the time to quote you Jason, and is a professed anti crossbow hunter . allowed your post to remain even though it violates posting rules 2,3,8,12,15. Is it possible that she herself has forgotten this is a HUNTING BB not a traditional bow BB? Thus allowing pop shots at those that support the crossbow's legalization in Pa?
Edited by - Lochorns on 02/01/2002 10:22:36
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Ledgen LS,
You yourself have stated in many posts that you are of the older generation, you are retired, and frankly I don't know how any could miss the fact that you are stubborn. No matter how many valid points are brought up in response to your posts, you rarely if ever agree that differing opinions may have some merit. So I fail to see how you find Jason N's post to be threatening, harrassing or abusive. Not to mention slanderous or libelous. As for flame wars and personal attacks, you yourself have been warned more than once. You have said things far nastier than any comment here.
I thought this topic was about shotguns? Somehow amazingly, you managed to turn it into a crossbow issue once again. As far as this being a hunting forum, your right it is. A forum for hunters in the North East, no matter what weapon you choose or animal you hunt. I hunt whitetail with a compound bow in North Central PA, so I believe I "qualify" to post here.
As far as personal attacks, your right, they won't be tolerated, consider yourself warned AGAIN. You should know better than to call out a moderator on the board. Any questions? Feel free to email me.
Have a great day!
Ami
02-01-2002, 11:12 AM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
lochorns,
I was just saying that I know people that have a 1000 acres and harvest high P&Y to Booners every year, but they have a pretty good ratio of woods to field. I only have 130 acres, but a centralized 40 is never walked in-ever. It's where the deer live. By having the woods surrounding the property actually can make it worse, by giving the deer a place to leave when the hunting pressure gets high. In my hunting leases, and leases, we figure around 80 to 100 acres of woods per hunter. More than that and you're just pushing deer, especially if people walk alot, don't pay attention to the wind, don't mask their scent, drive deer, whatever.
One piece my hunting partner and I are leasing this year in WI is 225A, with 65A of farm field. We have numerous entry/exit trails to our stand network, will have 16-20 treestands to choose from, and still will only be able to hunt the property 3-4 days in a row without pressuring the deer too much, then we will wait a week.
It doesn't take much for the deer to leave. Protecting bedding and security cover is vital to holding deer, especially mature bucks. I don't know much about farming, but I do know what it takes to hold big bucks.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
I was just saying that I know people that have a 1000 acres and harvest high P&Y to Booners every year, but they have a pretty good ratio of woods to field. I only have 130 acres, but a centralized 40 is never walked in-ever. It's where the deer live. By having the woods surrounding the property actually can make it worse, by giving the deer a place to leave when the hunting pressure gets high. In my hunting leases, and leases, we figure around 80 to 100 acres of woods per hunter. More than that and you're just pushing deer, especially if people walk alot, don't pay attention to the wind, don't mask their scent, drive deer, whatever.
One piece my hunting partner and I are leasing this year in WI is 225A, with 65A of farm field. We have numerous entry/exit trails to our stand network, will have 16-20 treestands to choose from, and still will only be able to hunt the property 3-4 days in a row without pressuring the deer too much, then we will wait a week.
It doesn't take much for the deer to leave. Protecting bedding and security cover is vital to holding deer, especially mature bucks. I don't know much about farming, but I do know what it takes to hold big bucks.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
02-01-2002, 11:31 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Muncy PA USA
Posts: 361
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
lochorns, I have no agenda. I love to hunt that's all. If you go back and read my first post, you will see that I actually agreed with you on this one.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur
02-01-2002, 02:33 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Warren PA USA
Posts: 1,512
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
Lochorns,
I've edited my first post....
Now let's move on....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have 96.5 % of 2110 acres n corn,beans ,cool weather grasses. limited hunting why aren't the bucks bigger..I'll tell you why...genetics. Age alone isn't going to get it done, like Alt wants you to believe!!! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
How is shotgun hunting going to help the genetics?
You said that part of your property was bordered by the ANF, correct? That's the reason you don't have big deer. The genes are there, so are 500,000 acres of public land just in the ANF.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> njeff the 2000+ is mostly all 1 block but intresting for you to note that there is stateforest on 2 sides of it and national forest on the other ( Allegheny) plenty of escape cover. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Edited by - Jason N on 02/01/2002 15:45:38
I've edited my first post....
Now let's move on....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have 96.5 % of 2110 acres n corn,beans ,cool weather grasses. limited hunting why aren't the bucks bigger..I'll tell you why...genetics. Age alone isn't going to get it done, like Alt wants you to believe!!! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
How is shotgun hunting going to help the genetics?
You said that part of your property was bordered by the ANF, correct? That's the reason you don't have big deer. The genes are there, so are 500,000 acres of public land just in the ANF.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> njeff the 2000+ is mostly all 1 block but intresting for you to note that there is stateforest on 2 sides of it and national forest on the other ( Allegheny) plenty of escape cover. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Edited by - Jason N on 02/01/2002 15:45:38
02-01-2002, 03:24 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Allentown Pa USA
Posts: 76
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
Jn if the genetics are there and a deer has been proven to live 99.9% of it's life in a 1 sq. mile area ( 640 acres) then I'd say that I should have a fair share of mature bucks on that 2000 acres, shouldn't I ? And I do. we kill bucks each year aged at 4-7 yrs old. yet none rarely over 18"and 10 pt. ...oh you may say ,too many deer have your herd stunted......hmmmm I doubt that. we killed bigger bucks that were younger back in the 40s,50s,60,70s when the herd numbers were double what they are today if not triple.
02-01-2002, 04:25 PM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bloomsburg PA USA
Posts: 63
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
Proline,
My parents own a small orchard where they see alot of deer activity. They usually see from 6 to twelve different bucks per year in the orchard. They have bucks on video tape that score over 160 non typical. They have had people shoot into the side of their house with high powered rifles so there is a safety issue there. Dad has killed two and half year old deer that field dressed 230 lbs at 2-1/2 years of age. I would put that up against any Ohio buck. At the end of the season there are only one or two bucks left that they see (These carry over to become the monsters the next year or two)
I am a competent rifle hunter (I wish that were more the case with a bow!) I have dropped the past 11 out of twelve bucks I shot at with my 7mm. Brush deflected the bullet on my miss. I am not the best shot but I can put the deer down with a rifle. I have shot at three deer with a shotgun. I killed one. The two I missed I did not hold over enough and shot under them (I think I may have stretched the barrel a bit, my mistake). With my own experience 11 out of twelve bucks were killed with my 7mm while I only killed 1/3 of the deer I shot at with a shotgun. These are my own statistics. I think the average hunter will probably be close to my averages, some better, some worse. If I would have been shooting at all the deer with a shotgun, I would have killed 5 out of fifteen bucks. All the ones I missed may have made it another year or two. Who knows?
All the "Big Buck" states that have made the press are pretty much shotgun only. Ohio, Iowa, parts of Indiana, Illinois, etc. Don't you think that the effectiveness of the primary weapon used to harvest deer in these states may have an effect on the carry over of bucks to the next year?
Gar
My parents own a small orchard where they see alot of deer activity. They usually see from 6 to twelve different bucks per year in the orchard. They have bucks on video tape that score over 160 non typical. They have had people shoot into the side of their house with high powered rifles so there is a safety issue there. Dad has killed two and half year old deer that field dressed 230 lbs at 2-1/2 years of age. I would put that up against any Ohio buck. At the end of the season there are only one or two bucks left that they see (These carry over to become the monsters the next year or two)
I am a competent rifle hunter (I wish that were more the case with a bow!) I have dropped the past 11 out of twelve bucks I shot at with my 7mm. Brush deflected the bullet on my miss. I am not the best shot but I can put the deer down with a rifle. I have shot at three deer with a shotgun. I killed one. The two I missed I did not hold over enough and shot under them (I think I may have stretched the barrel a bit, my mistake). With my own experience 11 out of twelve bucks were killed with my 7mm while I only killed 1/3 of the deer I shot at with a shotgun. These are my own statistics. I think the average hunter will probably be close to my averages, some better, some worse. If I would have been shooting at all the deer with a shotgun, I would have killed 5 out of fifteen bucks. All the ones I missed may have made it another year or two. Who knows?
All the "Big Buck" states that have made the press are pretty much shotgun only. Ohio, Iowa, parts of Indiana, Illinois, etc. Don't you think that the effectiveness of the primary weapon used to harvest deer in these states may have an effect on the carry over of bucks to the next year?
Gar
02-01-2002, 05:53 PM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: why hasn't all Pa gone shotgun only
I started hunting in 1969. Back then in the ANF a deer with more than 4 points was newsworthy. If we had much bigger bucks from the 40's till then, maybe the problem is that our deer management from the 40's on went directly against natural selection. We were basically peeing in the gene pool. Perhaps with AR and a sufficient doe kill we can salvage the genetics we have here. As for shotguns only, It'll probably happen first where I live because of the constant urban sprawl here but Pa still has places where it should never be necessary. Shotguns only statewide makes as much sense as making the whole state one big DMU.