Boy they must really think we are stupid
 

Sorry, but another rant on the PGC. Read if you want or not. I was just doing some random searching on the PGC web site looking at the various state game lands and saw a link on the home page for whitetail deer. I clicked on it and started going through the charts and figures they had listed. Now knowing most of WMU 4E where I do most of my hunting, I began plugging in the number on my computer's calculator. In 2010 the deer population for WMU 4E was set at 65,894 deer. Now first off, that was hard to believe. But OK let's assume its right. Now on the same hand, WMU 4E covers 1736 sq miles. So, 65894/1736 = 37.9. Wow, almost 38 deer per square mile in 4E! They must be hibernating.
At the same time the license/deer harvest dropped from 3.1 in 2003 to 4.6 in 2010 with a decrease in license allocations of only 11,000. AND supposedly the total deer population in this WMU only dropped about 7,000 from 2005 to 2010 (72,971 to 65,894).
Well I guess its true...figures don't lie, but liars figure.

The only thing I can think to do is to stop shooting does. Which will be tough for some. I shot a doe this past season, but it's the first I've shot in PA in three years. The only reason I shot one is I was seeing 7 doe run all over one farm I was hunting. I took one the last afternoon of the season. Never saw a buck. If we could stop the doe killing, I have to think the population would come back. I looked at the info for 2E, where I am, and there's no way there are as many deer as they report.
-Jake

It is this way throughout most of the state. The PGC refuses to listen to the hunters and third party biologists and continue on their errorous way. They complain that the number of hunters are dropping and young hunters are not joining the ranks. Do you really blame them? What young child would be willing to sit in the cold day after day and not see a deer? My grandson who is 7 now cannot wait to go hunting with his grandpa. I take him for turkey and squirrel with his mentor permit. I plan on taking him this upcoming year for deer but I am afraid he may begin to lose interest.

For years it was reported that there were 38 deer per square wooded mile in Pa. This amazes me because they canceled the annual elk count one year because of no snow. If you can't count an animal that large without snow, how do they count deer so accurately? Remember the white outline deer kill maps? One year (I think the 80's) there was one in the Game News for crop damage kill for the year. The whole state was around 500 deer. There were that many killed by farmers in a 5 mile radius of me.

IMO the entire deer management program (or should I call it the deer mis-management program) as run by the PGC is an outright shame. How can they possibly lie so bantently. The figures are totally inaccurate from the areas that I know. So statistically it can be said that all their figures are inaccurate. I would be more than happy to go with any WCO anywhere in WMU 4E, 4C or 2G and walk with them and have them show me any sign of the number of deer that they say there are.
But I will guarantee you this - you will find more coyote tracks than deer tracks. And they can't tell me that the coyotes don't eat deer. I found too much scat with deer hair in it to prove otherwise.

All about money.

Bad thing is the hunters are in actuality the ones to blame.

Good luck in 4E; you'll need it
 

As a non-resident, you made me start checking the pgc on the internet, to decide where to hunt. Never hunted the area covered by 4E; would only pass through it.
From the state data I found in 4E:

Deer herd at a minimum
Has the minimum 5 day antlered; 7 day concurrent season
deer herd seen as stable; deer reduction of antlerless accomplished. The CAC looking for increase of herd.

My Assessment:

Will not hunt 4E.
Looking for public land only. Only 4% of 1736 sq. miles is public.
Relatively mall acreage means it will get covered by local hunters; since land is near two interstates means some ingress to the public areas from some non-locals. Some better picks elsewhere.
.

Valentine you would be wise not to hunt 4E. As with the rest of the WMUs the deer population(s) are inflated - even grossly inflated. As for the 4% public land, a lot of that land is coal company owned and permission to hunt is via a permit (basically a trespass fee or land use fee). Only so many are allotted each year. Even then you have people hunting it without the required permits. And if you catch them and report them, you get your next year's permit free. Permit fee is $125.

4e
 

i to hunt 4e and i must say that where the pgc gets there info is beyond me. over the past few years i have seen less deer. they must be doing there surveys on private land around 4e

Picking your place to hunt
 

First, there are some successful hunters in 4E. PGC data shows that on antlered deer 4,746 Bucks were harvested in 2003 and 4,748 bucks were harvested in 2010.(one buck per hunter in PA)

The problem is anyone picking only one small area. In an area with 1,736 sq. mile, that amounts to a harvest of some 2.7 deer per square mile.
All sq. miles are not equal. Some sq. miles might see a harvest of three deer; some might only see a harvest of one deer. As one can easily see, there are no two deer behind every tree, and it might take some hiking to find just where the deer are.

And as for deer harvest, it's down in 4E. The buck harvest was just about the same in the PGC data of 2003 and 2010 for buck. A big decrease happened in antlerless deer. 11,974 antlerless deer in 2003; only 5,923 in 2010. All part of the PA deer reduction.

If you sit and wait on a buck, only less than 3 deer will be harvested per sq. mile. And if you're complaining, are you contributing to the complaining. Do you hunt the same half or quarter square mile? Only you can answer it?

Valentine, I just selected 4E because it is the unit I am most familiar with. I cover most of this unit throughout the season. My hunting consists of stand hunting, still hunting and silent drives. I have been sucessful in harvesting a buck for the past 5 or 6 years in 4E. And while it is true that the antlered harvest, if you can believe it, has remained relatively the same since 2003 the anterless harvest dropped 6000. Now lets take in to account the range from 2005 to 2010: Antlered harvest about the same, anterless down 3000, total population down 7000. Now we have to assume that the existing does are being bred. And if they are, stastically the dropped fawn buck to doe ratio being equal and healthy does normally dropping 2 per year, and even taking in to account 50% of the fawns taken by predators or accidents there should be more antered deer harvested and the population should be higher.
Someone is lying through their teeth. I'm sorry, figures don't lie, but liars figure.

Get used to the lies from the Game Commission, it has been going on for years. The only thing they admit to is anything good that comes about, whether they(GC) had anything to do with it or not. Anything bad and you don't know what you are talking about. I am tired of years of abuse from Deputy Game Wardens and Game Wardens. Now we have to take abuse from the Game Commission? You try to draw their attention to a problem and they talk down to you as if they were dealing with a special needs child.
I did notice one thing in the last few years. People that were always sticklers for the Game Laws are a lot looser in their interpetations of the law (Me included) than they used to be. I am not talking outlaw stuff, but small things, enough to get a fine. Think about that and people you know that hunt. This is a direct result of no respect for the Game Commission.

Heard and witnessed. :sad0064:

Thanks bronko22000
 

You got me motivated in checking data in PA, for my non-resident hunt.

"Now knowing most of WMU 4E where I do most of my hunting. I cover most of this unit throughout the season."


Now, bronko, it would take a non-local five years to know all that data, even for a start. From the state data, the harvest isn't too bad in 4E. PA had a deer reduction, but not all over, according to the data. I can see the complication, in it all.
Maybe they're giving your area credit for the buck harvest in 2010, by thinking the hunters are hiding some deer in the old culm banks.

Of course, it made me laugh thinking of a army artillery officer, I knew, who was looking at a topo map from PA . What's that strange hill, he asked? Oh that, I said, that's a "column" bank, sir.

(Oh, I have picked out some five different places. None in 4E. And nothing against 4E)

Valentine - If I were a non-resident looking to hunt deer in PA I would look into the southeastern counties or the western counties. The problem is not the lack of deer. From what I understand there are too many in some of these areas. The problem is trying to find somewhere to hunt - especially with a rifle. Maybe talk with the regional offices and see if any landowners are having deer damage and if they would allow hunting. These land owners may not allow rifle hunters but may welcome bow hunters due to the bow's limited range and quietness.
But as far as the data on the PGC site, knowing what 4E has, its hard to believe any of the data listed as factual.

I havent had any trouble finding deer the past few years neither has my son. He has shot 5 in 4 years of hunting 2 buck 3 doe. try telling him there arent deer in PA. I have killed 3 in that time frame. Passed on a few others.

Dale. I've harvested a buck during archery every year for the past 5 years. But I put in a lot of time doing it. Both scouting and hunting. It has gotten so bad that I even get excited when I see deer droppings! That's a shame. And, I didn't say there weren't any deer in PA. You can find pockets of areas holding deer. Mostly on private land or close to it. Not in large tracts of public land though. And you are not in 4E up there in your neck of the woods either. The numbers they posted for 4E is and outright lie or wishful thinking.

Thats why its called hunting. And I live and hunt in 2G supposedly one of the worst units. Deer are here just have to find them. No food source no deer pretty simple if you ask me.

I have a camp in 2G Dale. We haven't hunted deer up there in years. We see one or two here and there when we are up for bear but nothing like we used to see. But like you said, one of the reasons is lack of food. Most of the area is mature timber which is not attributable to large game numbers. But I am sure most will agree that the most significant cause of the drastic reduction in deer populations (on public land) is the overharvest due to the PGC alloting doe tags like there was no limit to the number of doe that could be harvested and people believing what the PGC has been saying in that the numbers were too high. But you can't honestly tell me you actually believe the numbers that the PGC is throwing out. Think back 15 or even 10 years. How many deer did you see compared to now. And how many deer did you see harvested then as compared to now. Then look at the numbers again. The buck harvest are almost identical! They are blowing smoke where the sun don't shine.

Well I agree there are no deer in PA like there used to be but who do you really blame. I am no fan of the PGC but they are no more to blame than the greedy hunters in PA. If people quit shooting every doe they see there will be more deer but it will never happen. I hunted 6 days of rifle and I saw more bucks than does. I never had that happen until this year. If it was a perfect world they would slash the tags or only allow 1 deer a year but it will never happen there because it would cause an uproar among hunters.

Thank you. I buy 2 doe tags every year, for the past 5 or 6 years and never used them. So have a few other guys I know. When I started hunting in PA over 45 years ago you got to shoot 1 deer a year. That was it. You shot a doe during archery season you were done. Now granted, I do believe there probably were too many deer back then but like you said, hunter greed and too many doe tag allotments have just about reduced the deer herd to the point where it may never recover. Yet you still have "hunters", and I use that term very sarcastically, killing 2 or 3 deer a year just to say they did. It's an outright shame IMO.

I been doing that the last few years to Bronko. This year I actually made it back there and hunted. People I hunted with this year got mad because I passed on 2 nice bucks that were probably only 2 1/2 yrs old and shot a old scrub rack 3 pt. If people there would just not slaughter the does for 2 years there would be a decent increase in the herd. Well that just how I feel about it and I am nobody.

Saw this headline in the latest PA Outdoor News:
PGC 336,200 deer harvest is in dispute

The Pennsylvania Game Commission recently reported that hunters harvested an estimated 336,200 deer in the state’s 2011-12 seasons, and that announcement ignited an uproar among many sportsmen.

Go to this site and read entire story those of you who believe everything the PGC writes or tells you.
http://www.outdoornews.com/March-201...is-in-dispute/

What really bugs me with this article is that the PGC received 114,000 reports. Then they checked 26,000 deer at processors and in the field. Of these they state they had a reporting rate of 37%. So, instead of fining the hunters that didn't report (or at least sending a warning) as required, they used that 37% factor to the 114,000 reports to come up with a 336,200 estimate! IMO that is a pi$$ poor way to make an estimate. But they claim that that is a satisfactory method. And that is the method they use to determine the herd size! Good Lord. These people are really anal retentive.

PA does need to find a better way to get this data. Ohio used to require you take the deer to a check station, like bear in PA. At the station they'd get their info and give you a metal tag that had to stay with the antlers, or in the case of a doe you had to keep it till the meat was gone I think. This worked a lot better than PA's mail in or call in system. Part of shooting a deer in ohio is the trip to the check station. Ohio recently went to a call in system. I expect report % to go down now that the system is in place. People get busy and just forget to report it. If PA was reporting the real numbers I expect we'd see a big difference.
-Jake

Well I believe the system would work if sucessful hunters would report their kills. My heartburn with this is that they claim that of the 26,000 deer checked at processors only 37% of those were reported. So my thoughts are did they fine those hunters for not reporting as required by the game laws? If they did, they should list the non-reporters. This would get the word out that they mean business and if you don't report your kill, you will get fined. The game laws state that you must report your harvest within 5 days. Granted there are those that process their own deer and may not report this. But those numbers may not be substantial enough to change the figures.
Also, I would not be against having a check station type system provided they have enough of them throughout the state. You could even have processors collect the info. They do most of it anyway. Then the local WCO could collect them after the season.

I worked with a guy that got a fine in the mail for not reporting a deer that the GW checked at a butcher shop. I guess it depends how lazy the Game Warden is. You would be surprised how many people cut up their own deer. Right now I can't think of anyone I know that does not butcher a deer themselves.

Me either. We all cut up our own deer. I used a butcher one time back in 2001. That was because of a time constraint and warm weather. Cost $60, and I'm pretty sure I got back less than if I had done it myself. Probably more $$ now.
-Jake

I think the cheapest you will find is around $100.oo, and that is basic only.

I got a Mum and Pop that only charges $45 , sorry yall!:p

hunters like you that are after meat are ALWAYS seeing lots of deer in wmu2g.you dont want it to end so you say LOTS OF DEER.
truth is deer numbers are bad. seeing 3 deer on publicland together in field is not normal now. unless itys near private ground or around homes.

want to come and take ride with me in clinton county?
oh, i forgot, most likely you will say, SPROUL THEY ARE WAYBACK AND YOU GOT TO HUNT THEM.

NO ONE CAN FOOL ME ON NUMBERS OF DEER IN WMU2G ON PUBLICLAND.

invite still stands and we will make a report on here after out trip to see all these deer.:deer:

they will not because they are ones that dont want it to end and always see lots of deer.i dont believe word any of them say they are reason we have few deer.
these type of hunters are reason my hunting area is ruined.

So you know the type of hunter I am by what I write. HMM then you should be a millionaire if you can read minds. I see plenty of deer in 2G on public and private. Just for your info in the past 5 years I have killed 2 doe thats it. Spent those 5 years trying to get my son deer and he has done pretty well at it 5 since he has been hunting. 3 of those on public ground in 2G. 1 in Bald Eagle state park to be exact and my cousin got 1 there as well. We saw deer all day I passed up a small doe the last Sat. there wasnt what I was looking for. The others on state forest land. So if I were the type of hunter you think I am I would have shot it then bragged about it. Like I said find the food and cover find the deer. I dont care if its a mile back in or 50 yds back in if those 2 things arent there then the deer wont be either. You no deer crowd simply cant handle the truth nor do you want to take the time to learn anything. I dont agree with everything the PFC does and I have sent mail and emails on things I didnt like. I just have no trouble finding deer.

Dale to quote you "Like I said find the food and cover find the deer. I dont care if its a mile back in or 50 yds back in if those 2 things arent there then the deer wont be either." And I couldn't agree more. The problem is the PGC keeps alloting anterless tags in WMUs that just don't have the deer they say are in them. And another culprit is DCNR. They would like to see a zero deer population. That plus there are vast tracts of mature timber on state forest land that should be cut. It is so old in areas that the trees are dying and rotting away. The solution is to section the wooded tracts, cut the mature timber. This allows for new growth which brings in game such as deer, grouse, turkey, bear, etc. because there is more feed. The way I see it, its a win - win solution. But you will not see any of this happen which is sad.
Personally, I am not opposed to shooting anterless deer in areas where there is a sustainable population. In fact, I would encourge it.
But you can't look at the numbers the PGC is throwing out there and honestly believe them.

i have friends that just cant kill enough deer so they head to the BALD EAGLE PARK to kill more.they have stateland here in clinton county cleaned out.
these TYPES are reason of very few deer left not habitat.
in my area i hunt now i got 20 amish moved in,kill everything.
now they are competing with 20 mexicans that moved into same area.

these folks will kill EVERY doe they see.

anyone that says they see PLENTY of deer in wmu2g on stateforestland is just plain not telling truth .

many that are liers.

bronko 22000:
 

Be careful what you wish for. The best mountain I have to hunt is loaded with oaks and really inaccessable. It was a large tract that was owned by a company and sold to the GC about 12 years ago. The first thing they (GC) wanted to do was "Improve" it. That is Game Commission speak for rape all the good lumber off and plant invasive species. Thank God the only access they have can not be used to bring in heavy logging equipment. I have been hunting in West Virginia for about 20 years. When I started there a clear cut was done on top of the one mountain. There is nothing but scrap to this day growing there from the stumps. Within about 4-5 years it was above browse level and probably is in the 10-15 foot high range now (My estimate). I went through it a couple of times over the years and once it was above browse level, it was like a desert for deer sign. The "Old rotten trees" you see are stricken with blight, parasites, and disease. There is hardly a food source in the woods that deer use that is not under attack from something. Destroying what is left won't help. Some of the best areas I have hunted burn off every few years but leave the mature trees. Maybe that is the answer.

Gunplummer, having a degree in forestry I have to tell you that there is a wrong way and a right way to harvest trees. One is a total clear cut like you described. But you can also do what is commonly called a selective clear cut. This is where certain 'seed' trees are left standing such as oaks and beech. Once the canopy is open, the lush undergrowth and grasses are the first to come back. These attract the game. Then as time passes, what acorn and nuts that are not consumed by the animals begin to generate and saplings sprout. Granted it takes a long time for oaks to bear fruit. But the other 'scrap' as you call it (black birch, maples etc) provide excellent browse for deer. And because they are relatively fast growers they can sustain a fair population. The good thing about these trees is for the most part they have a short life cycle.

That is a bunch of nonsense. The fast growing scrap is above browse level so fast it is almost worthless and it chokes out the other trees coming up. That spot in West Virginia I described is mostly scrap coming out of stumps. It gets 15-20 feet high and dies and falls over. Some people think it is acid rain, I don't know. All I am sure about is the forests of Pa. are dieing and the deer have little to do with it. It all sounds good in a book, but times have changed. When the GC wants people to think that semi or clear cutting works, they dump tons (Literally) of lime on the area and spray herbicides to slow down what they don't want to grow. I am willing to bet they seed it with grasses too. I don't know how old you are but I remember seeing 50-60 deer the first day. The crazy thing is now that there are almost no deer running the mountains the woods is dieing and thinning out faster than ever.

That was my statement originally. The forests are dying of old age. And, its 'not a bunch of crap". But another option is a good controlled burn.
BTW, I am almost 60 so I do remember the days when you would see lots of deer. But if you remember, back then you were only allowed to shoot one deer a year - period.

you are right.we made sure we had doe in our area so we had buck next year.
just opposite today. idiots shoot all doe then they say, I ALWAYS SEE LOTS OF DEER,YOU MUST BE BAD HUNTER OR DONT GO WAYBACK.:fighting0007:

i have no trouble filling all my doe tags and dmap tags,LOTS OF DEER.
disgusting bunch of hunters we have today,.

I would like to see where a Pennsylvania forested mountain is dieing of old age. A 3 foot thick oak is just getting started. The trees can't beat the diseases and are in real trouble when they are 2 foot thick. The problem is the scrap trees are able to fight off a lot of the diseases and insects killing the good timber. If you get over to Hickory Run State Park, check out the stands of oak and beech in there. Allegedly that place burned so many times they just about gave up on it. I was up there the other year and I saw the infestation (Forget what it is called) attacking the Hemlocks. Some of the beech trees have the blight, most of the oaks that took the gypsy moth hit are down and gone, but something else is after them. Excuse me, but I am really pissed off at the GC and DNR in Pa. We told them something has been attacking the laurel for years and they talk down to you and say it is the deer eating it. Well NOW, the laurel has a blight. I guess they could not see the orange spots on the leaves 15 years ago because of all the deer in the way. The forests are dieing off but it is not from deer or old age.

All that nonsense about the herd being out of balance. In the heavy wooded areas I actually think it was 50-50 buck to doe 40 years ago. Only a 3 day doe season but it was a slaughter. Enough to keep up with the buck kill. If you shot a young doe it was a good chance it was a button buck. Now it is screwed up beyond belief (And maybe repair) in a lot of places. What in the world makes people think there should be more buck than doe in a herd? I used to think the GC was God when I was younger. Like everything else in this country they are nothing but paper pushers anymore. I doubt they could manage a hot dog stand even with the DNR helping.