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Hey Doug!

Old 03-08-2010, 07:13 AM
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Default Hey Doug!

......Do you happen to have an estimate on the B/D ratio in Treasure Lake? I found an interesting quote from your hunt chairman online that makes some pretty strange claims. See for yourself:


To show some of the evolution from the beginning to where it is going, here is what the new Chair of the Wildlife Committee at Treasure Lake has to say:

http://www.camospace.com/archer58inPA

I am also lucky enough to Chair a Wildlife Committe in the suburban community I live in. We oversee a deer management program in an area that has only been bow hunted by a group of residents and guests for the last 2 years. The 6000 acres here has not been hunted for 40years until 2006.

Our challenge is herd balance. buck to Doe ratio within the area is 1 to 30. Not very good at all.
Our goal is to take 400 does and 40 bucks.
I read an article a while back from none other than Kip Adams that pretty much stated that any ratio beyond 1:4 is impossible in a natural setting, and taking it one step further, wouldn't an unhunted population be closer to 1:1 due to lack of any kind of focused hunter effort on the buck herd? I'll try to find the link to Kip's article, but interesting that Ms Davis (GTF) supported this same doctrine as she was the one referencing the quote by your chairman in the first place. I think it's kinda scary how close she came to being appointed to the BOC, if she truly believes that such an outrageously skewered B/D ratio could exist. I'm also concerned that the guy in charge of managing your hunt could be so uninformed as well. Curious if you have any other insight into how they reached that stunning conclusion.
Here is the quote from Kip Adams.:
<H1>Understanding deer sex ratios

By Kip Adams, Quality Deer Management Association
Hunters often ask about the sex ratio of the deer herd where they hunt and then compare that ratio to herds in other areas or states. There are a lot of misunderstandings regarding sex ratios and this article will help clarify some misconceptions.
What is a sex ratio and how is it determined?

The sex ratio is a number describing the number of adult females for each adult male in a population. The number includes deer 1.5 years and older (all deer except fawns) and describes the population immediately before the hunting season . When comparing ratios, make sure you are referring to pre-hunt adult sex ratios. These are the ratios biologists most often refer to, and they should not be confused with observed or post-hunt ratios as the latter are nearly always heavily skewed towards females.
Understanding deer sex ratios

I often hear hunters, outdoor writers, and even biologists refer to 10:1 or 15:1 doe:buck ratios. These cannot be pre-hunt adult ratios because as long as the deer herd is reproducing, the ratio cannot become more skewed than 5 does per buck. The biological maximum is about 5:1 because even if no does are harvested, 15-20% of the adult females in the population will die each year from old age, vehicles, disease, predators, etc. Also, about 50% of fawns born each year are male (it's actually slightly more than 50%), thus the sex ratio gets an annual correction when fawns are recruited.
</H1>

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Old 03-08-2010, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Screamin Steel View Post
......Do you happen to have an estimate on the B/D ratio in Treasure Lake? I found an interesting quote from your hunt chairman online that makes some pretty strange claims. See for yourself:




I read an article a while back from none other than Kip Adams that pretty much stated that any ratio beyond 1:4 is impossible in a natural setting, and taking it one step further, wouldn't an unhunted population be closer to 1:1 due to lack of any kind of focused hunter effort on the buck herd? I'll try to find the link to Kip's article, but interesting that Ms Davis (GTF) supported this same doctrine as she was the one referencing the quote by your chairman in the first place. I think it's kinda scary how close she came to being appointed to the BOC, if she truly believes that such an outrageously skewered B/D ratio could exist. I'm also concerned that the guy in charge of managing your hunt could be so uninformed as well. Curious if you have any other insight into how they reached that stunning conclusion.
Here is the quote from Kip Adams.:
[b]</H1>
There has never been any attemt to estimate the b/d ratio in TL.Furthermore,there is not any attempt or challenge underway to try and improve it.The only concern is killing as many deer as possible to reduce the population.I read that a few months ago and about choked.He obviously pulled that statistic out of thin air because it's never even been discussed let alone looked into.
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:49 AM
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Thanks! I found it kinda wild myself. He DID say the goal was to kill 40 buck and 400 doe for the year, but I also thought that if the sex was so skewered (if it was even remotely possible) I was surprised that his harvest goal was only 10:1 does/ buck. I believe the original discussion in that link was whether or not TL was morphing into a QDM operation, or was simply a herd reduction program designed to reduce the deer as quickly as possible. Some folks seeem under the impression that some kind of QDM operation is in the works or at work, but doesn't seem to be the picture we are getting from you. Thanks for the local insight on the subject. Ironic that the thread excerpt was from the qdma forums. I was surprised to see that crowd, of all people still hanging on to the belief of such crazy sex ratios. I believe Gary Alt once made a similar statement, which made him look all the more foolish when the herd data proved it was never close to that outta whack in PA!

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Old 03-08-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Screamin Steel View Post
Thanks! I found it kinda wild myself. He DID say the goal was to kill 40 buck and 400 doe for the year, but I also thought that if the sex was so skewered (if it was even remotely possible) I was surprised that his harvest goal was only 10:1 does/ buck. I believe the original discussion in that link was whether or not TL was morphing into a QDM operation, or was simply a herd reduction program designed to reduce the deer as quickly as possible. Some folks seeem under the impression that some kind of QDM operation is in the works or at work, but doesn't seem to be the picture we are getting from you. Thanks for the local insight on the subject. Ironic that the thread excerpt was from the qdma forums. I was surprised to see that crowd, of all people still hanging on to the belief of such crazy sex ratios. I believe Gary Alt once made a similar statement, which made him look all the more foolish when the herd data proved it was never close to that outta whack in PA!

Interestingly,he doesn't even have the acreage correct.TL is almost 9500 acres and we can hunt about 2200 of those acres.

In my experience and opinion based on obsevations,TL has a pretty darn good b/d ratio.Observations don't mean squat however.I actually get just as many if not more bucks on trail cams than adult doe.A b/d ratio of 1/30 is beyond laughable.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:40 AM
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Sent you a couple pm's.It seems like I'm having a hard time responding to some so I'm not sure if you'll get them.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Screamin Steel View Post
Thanks! I found it kinda wild myself. He DID say the goal was to kill 40 buck and 400 doe for the year, but I also thought that if the sex was so skewered (if it was even remotely possible) I was surprised that his harvest goal was only 10:1 does/ buck. I believe the original discussion in that link was whether or not TL was morphing into a QDM operation, or was simply a herd reduction program designed to reduce the deer as quickly as possible. Some folks seeem under the impression that some kind of QDM operation is in the works or at work, but doesn't seem to be the picture we are getting from you. Thanks for the local insight on the subject. Ironic that the thread excerpt was from the qdma forums. I was surprised to see that crowd, of all people still hanging on to the belief of such crazy sex ratios. I believe Gary Alt once made a similar statement, which made him look all the more foolish when the herd data proved it was never close to that outta whack in PA!
I don't see how anyone can mistake TL for a QDM operation.It's about herd reductions,nothing more,nothing less.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:02 PM
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SS. Did you see my link about TL on QDMA.com?
GTF tried to prop this guy up and use his quotes until I questioned her about the exact same things??
Seems the Deer management program at TL. is in serious trouble with out Doug and that Dilweed at the helm. He doens't have a clue about anything that has to do with hunting or the Whitetail deer! Pike
http://forums.qdma.com/showthread.php?t=28340

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Old 03-08-2010, 11:54 PM
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Thanks, Jeff. It WAS actually your link that led me there in the first place. Got your PM's Doug. Crazy stuff for sure!
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:42 AM
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He's actually a nice guy but I have no idea where any of that stuff came from.I was part of that program from day one and we never even discussed the B/D ratio or the need to balance it.I can also say with complete confidence that our harvests have not exceeded recruitment so there would be no tightening of the breeding window.The deer in there probably are healthier the last two years because the timber is being cut at a very fast rate.Seneca resource corp owns the timer rites on about 3500 acres and TL gets them back in 2013.They've been cutting like crazy the past two years and it will continue for the next three years.They own everything larger than 14 inches at the stump so you can imagine what the place wil look like.They've already taken most of the mast producing trees off of the undeveloped areas.There's no regeneration but there's a huge temporary food source in the form of tops littering the place.They have more food than they can eat right now but it won't last.
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Old 03-09-2010, 06:57 AM
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Wonder why they let them get away with taking all the mast trees and not select cutting it leaving some good mature mast producing trees behind. In a decade that place'll be nothing but pole timber by the sounds. Maybe your new charirman thinks they're gonna put in food plots to increase the CC as part of his QDM plan! LOL

Last edited by Screamin Steel; 03-09-2010 at 07:00 AM.
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