P.A. Results in 2F
 

I think the way things are ran in P.A. is destroying our quality of hunting. We had 13 people hunting and a few more groups we have got to know over the years. And it's everyones feeling that the total number of deer seen is at all time lows. In our camp one 8point...3does(1button buck). Total deer seen between 13 people around 30. And alot were seen by all so those numbers could have been maybe 15 different animals. P.A. needs to put the Doe harvest on hold for a few years and let the herd get larger. I know what a few will say ....your camp added to the problem. No argument from me... I didn't harvest a Doe even though I had my chances. But as things go people say to hell with it and shot little deer anyway. I don't see how it can get better without changes. I am really thinking about spending my time and money in V.A. hunting and stopping a 25year tradition in P.A.
Chuck

I agree pa needs to at least go back to the 3 days of doe for a couple of years. the problem is the pgc. is not going to admit they over did it with there antler restriction program by going to a 2 week anything goes.where do they think the big bucks they want to create come from bucks, no your doe population.that is why I also hunt ohio.yes if possible I can shoot 3 doe and 1 buck in my area in ohio but, 2 of those tags have to be used up before the gun season and only 1 week of gun season with a shotgun which has to be plugged for 3 shells only.we had over 1 million hunters in pa every year with alot of people who where able to shoot the buck of their choice.we now have 830,000 hunters a year and dropping with people complaining about not even seeing all these big bucks gary alt said would be running around in pa woods.
you will still get archery hunters who don't hunt gun say they like the new program but, many have private land to hunt on.try hunting on game lands and say the same thing about how great antler restrictions are and how many deer you see.a game warden after the 1st day here in my area 1b stated on tv at a butcher shop for deer that the kill was down but, the deer have become secretive and hunters have got to change their hunting habits.he would not tell me that face to face as I have hunted for 47yrs now and we put on drives and do not push out the deer we use to.lucky to see 2 or 3 together.it is time for all hunters who think our pa herd is down to it's lowest ever to take back our hunting rights and have a choice of which deer we choose to harvest.gary alt tried to make pa a big buck state only for the revenue he thought out of state hunters would bring and it failed.why do you think gary alt is no longer around.

amen to that, i agree with everything you said

Yes, the numbers are lower. I think that HR was compounded by the explosion of bear and coyote and bobcat numbers, and the fawn crop is getting obliterated when they drop in the spring. There is so much bear and yote sign at my camp it is scary. I would not want to be a fawn born in those woods. The hunters have been totally absent for the last 4 years or so, and we don't shoot does at camp, so something is keeping the numbers down and it isn't a human factor at this point. If this is what you see in your areas, lay off the does if you can restrain yourself.

Good post liv,I've witnessed the same thing.

Remember Alt told us that ARs would shorten the breeding window and that would reduce predation? I suppose he forgot about the effects of HR!!!

Yep he never took predators into consideration with HR....no way.But then we knew he's an idiot.

Hunters that have it good now will probably change their tune years from now. I predict that one of two things will happen:

1) Hunting in Pa will no longer exist due to lack of interest and/or pressure from non-hunting groups and increased posting.
2) Their paradise will be lost because other hunters from areas with minimal deer densities will encroach on their areas, causing increased pressure and reduced densities. In addition, more posting will occur.

Just my thoughts.

Item 2 was the cause of my paradise lost in Berks county years ago.

Are there any numbers floating around on the amount of game these predators take in a given year? Where we hunt I did see a bear on opening day, but as far as coyotes never heard or seen one.

I don't know. But today I walked my butt off along a 4 year old clearcut figuring just maybe I might cut some tracks in the snow. I did. I cut the tracks of 3 seperate deer, and each one of them had coyote tracks on top of them.

Make no mistake about it, Gary Alt & Co knew full well that once they got the herd numbers below a certain point, that predators would control the herd. This plan was well orchestrated and they played us like a violin.

So kill some predators perhaps? How many deer hunters see coyotes during deer season and don't shoot? I shoot every single one I see, always. No exceptions.

And the PGC will simply increase the antlerless allocation to make up for the increase in recruitment. The predation by predators has no effect on the PGCs regarding how many deer there should be.

Good point bt. IF we killed every damn yote in the state, the environmentalist nuts would simply do their little fraud assessment, see a few fewer trillium per square yard and where a deer munched a twig on a hobblebush 6 months ago and declare disaster and pgc will allocate 10,000 more tags for the wmu...

Having said that, there's one less coyote in greene county as of last week. A big female. She wont be spitting out anymore fawn killers this spring.

Find the spring dens and kill the bitch and all the pups.

Im getting tempted to sling some steel....maybe next year. Thought about it last year, even boiled & waxed a few dozen #2's, still hangin' in the wood shed. Havent trapped in several years now fur prices down & not really had the time. In the area most in need of getting rid of some yotes, im kinda not wanting the catch the few b'cats the just moved into the area about 5-6 years ago or so. Didnt really wanna bust a leg up on one or for that matter, have to release one, doesnt sound fun. Got a bit of a soft spot for them purdy cats that I see every year a couple times from treestands archery season or during summer while scounting. Like seein' em, even though they really knocked the hell outta the turkey flock on that particular area since they moved in. lol.

You do know that bobs eat deer too?

Yep. but dont think it NEARLY as bad as the yotes. Those yotes are just bigger stronger meaner and are in larger number. Ive seen yote kills and Ive seen yotes work on already dead deer. They are deer eating machines, and I didnt need any "studies" to know that, such as the one from pgc that says yotes arent a problem.

Not only is the cat killin' illegal without drawing a permit, Like i said, have a soft spot. Them things are just to durn purdy to hate 'em. lol.:biggrin: Im not one of the greedy hunters pgc supporters like to speak of that thinks all that should exist is deer and more deer period. The cats just started showing up in this area of Pa pretty recently, and only now are they seen somewhat regularly by us here. Saw 'em years ago a couple'a times but only up in the mountains in what is now unit 2c.

I also have no delusions about saving every deer from predation. Also, if pgc would simply throttle back on the reduction, there'd be plenty to go around where a fawn or two going to feed the critters wouldnt make so much difference.


Just my opinions on the cats & dogs...others may differ.

Congrats and THANK YOU for waxing that 'yote, Cornelius. I heard of two guys hunting near me on opening day that saw one and didn't shoot it. Shame on them. I'll swerve to hit one with ther truck, if the other lane is clear. Haven't gotten really into the predator huntig thing yet, but considering it strongly. Some of my old neighbors up in 4D have taken to it pretty good, and they say its a real blast as well.

I don't understand why they wouldn't shoot one. Coyote pelts would make a fine addition to the trophy room. From what I gather in the digest you don't need a furtakers license either.

Yes...yotes stink. They roll in everything...FECES, carrion, garbage, etc.
You shoot them and stuff them under a log.

Ive skun some that stunk to high heaven. Dont know if its just a coincidence, but its usually males. Few females Id dealt with never seemed to have that problem... Maybe just got lucky..

Anyway, Id skun a couple that stunk so bad it actually made me physically sick afterwards. lol. Hard smell to get off the hands too!

These days I skin em just to take the hide to fur dealer, so it dont go completely to waste. But the one shot last week had a slight case of mange it appeared.....a pretty muffed up coat with most long guard hairs missing making it appear unprime when they should be at the peak currently, and patches of nothing but very short wooly underfur in large patches on back. It just got tossed in a ditch.

They make a pretty nice mount or tanned fur when prime though.

I used to hunt them in Potter and Tioga back in the 90s. Killed quite a few of them. When predator hunting took off so well, I kinda gave it up. I hate skinning them rascals because they do stink to high heavens.