"As for recruiting I would suggest getting young hunters started on small game"

Sounds good in theory,if only there was some small game left to hunt.The days of flushing a dozen wild birds with a bird dog of half a dozen bunnies with a good beagle are long gone and never to be seen again.

one of beefs is most crossbow hunters do to scopes think shooting to 50 yds is ok.i hear it all time everywhere i go, I SHOT AT DOE AT 50 YDS BECAUSE SCOPE HAD 50 YD RANGE.

now, the crossbow hunters that WERE recurve /compound hunters know limits of the crossbows to 30 yds .they are ones that are not the problem,its all these NEW 1 day wonder meat hunters that see a deer and just pull up and shoot not knowing limits.

yes, they outnumber the ones i mentioned 5 to 1,for sure.

crossbow is bringing these type of people out of closets to go about their merry way.

Not true sprouls about yrdage. People watch tournaments on tv. They are shooting 3d targets at 60yrds+ with compound bows. You don't think the generation who was watching that show are not sighting in up to 50 yards + because of what they see on tv? You bet they are. Practice make perfect sproul. If someone can hit a target consitent at 50 yrds then all means go for that 50 yrd shot. And most will who have practiced for that distance.

In good habitat you’ll find good small game, It’s just like everything else. Wild birds you got grouse and wood**** (doodles), the last two years I’ve been having pretty good flush rates. While I don’t bunny hunt (but want to get out w/ some beagles this year) I have been seeing more and more bunnies as of late. Squirrels, c’mon you can’t go anywhere w/o seeing many of them. I can’t think of a better way to start a kid out then a fall day hunting treerats. Pheasants well , thanks to Delaney and boys if they get a license increase the amount of pheasant stocking will double. A lot of money that could go towards habitat for native animals AND even wild pheasant habitat will be wasted on ditch chickens, but what do you expect your dealing w/ own agendas and not science w/ this crew. It’s all about the kill.

All I can say is that you either arent a bowhunter or you have very little experience at it. Any one who thinks that it's ethical to shoot an arrow or a crossbow bolt at a 50 yard deer is a fool.

I shot 3Ds on the national level for over 10 years and have no problem shooting targets at 60+ yards but won't take that shot at a living animal.

My advice when I help a new bowhunter get all set up is to find the maximum distance at which they can hit the vitals on a deer EVERY time and cut that distance in half for real world hunting. I think its best if they stick with that rule till they get some experience and a few bowkills under their belt.

As Sproul said, some guys think long distance shots are OK just cause they have a pin for it. Thats why I strongly advocate mandatory bowhunter ed for new bowhunters especially new crossbow hunters.

Ya'll better hold on to your drawers, because this is gonna shock ya's. But BTB has hit the nail squarely on the head this time around.:s12:

"All I can say is that you either arent a bowhunter or you have very little experience at it. Any one who thinks that it's ethical to shoot an arrow or a crossbow bolt at a 50 yard deer is a fool."

I have to agree. By far most guys simply arent consistent enough at that distance, especially under field conditions. And even those who are on targets, imho, STILL shouldnt be taking those shots unless its at an already hit deer. It takes even the faster bows far too long to get the arrow to the target at that distance. A deer can move a heckuva long ways by the time the arrow arrives wether it be reacting to the shot or simply turning slightly or taking another step.

Holy crap batman! Everyone agreeing here? What's this forum coming too? You all made very good points. And if anyone doubts corn's reply about how much a deer can move by the time the arrow reaches the deer. Just watch Primo's
video. They did A special segment on this. Deer drooping out of the path of the arrow only 10 yds. away.

Here you go. Not my video as I wouldn't hunt at a feeder nor would I whistle at a standing deer before I shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogu7Wedemag

That's EXACTLY why I pick a spot and aim low.

i have friend in italy that shoots 100yds with crossbow and about 4inch circle group.he is big game hunter too,shoots all those zebra and other safari critters.he would never take shot over 40 yds max on critter and mostly 30 yds is his max.noise/energy of crossbow /arrow IS NOT VERY GOOD VRS A COMPOUND WITH LONGER ARROWS.

this is why most seasoned archery hunters are staying with compound bows, less noise,more energy in arrow and second shot possible.non seasoned 1 day year hunter is going the crossbow route excluding the disabled.

I have hunted with a compound since i was 12 yrs old and have been shooting one since i got my "toy" bow when i was a toddler. I also have purchased a ten point crossbow 2 yrs ago. What i have found is agreeable with both sides of the issue. YES the xbow is an effective weapon out to 40 yds, however it IS loud and deer DO drop at the sound when the trigger is pulled and i WOULD NOT recommend shooting any farther than 40 yards only after much practice has been done. However the compound is just as leathal at that range and both have their negatives in the stand. Xbows are bulky and can be very hard to maneuver in the tree thus not allowing shots at all angles that i could get my compound to the get an arrow through so it is not always easy....For those that think using a crossbow is an unfair advantage you can think that but until you actually buy one and try to hunt with it i dont think you should say so. I have used one and still do in early and late season and there ARE downsides to it, it is not the cake walk most thing, the worst part about it is getting it in position of shooting lanes and finding clearance points to actually get a shot through in a stand. I however do enjoy my compound and i use that from the pre-rut on.

I do however think the biggest issue face is that like some have mentioned xbows will bring alot of idiots out of the wood work that think they are now archers. They WILL take unethical shots and WILL wound alot of deer. Also the added pressure to the woods will effect the deer activity especially in urban areas where people can go 30 yds behind their house and use an xbow to chase that big buck that comes to eat off their bushes.

I am nnot against the legalization of crossbows at all, im against the legalization of allowing idiots to go into the archery woods, but then again the same idiots are allowed out in late november with a high powered rifle.

[QUOTE][I am nnot against the legalization of crossbows at all, im against the legalization of allowing idiots to go into the archery woods, but then again the same idiots are allowed out in late november with a high powered rifle.
__________________/QUOTE] Stupid is as stupid does! Xbow full inclusion is not a dead issue, just haven't found what the right grease is for the new guys

Get all of your fact straight and your favorite conservation organaztion behind you like Delaney did.

The pheasant stocking wont double.It will 'Go back' to what it was.But I know alot of you guys that have it in for Jay will never agree or understand that,Just slam away.

Any of you grouse wood**** guys add in your comments,good or bad on the Grouse/Wood**** Management plan? Because over 900 people relied to the Pheasant Management Plan.

When the Pgc doesnt give us what we want its easy to blame and slam cause we pay for a license.Dont we also pay dues to our conservation organazations,they can help too and if some left more dollars in the local chapters.I wont name names,but more work could be done for the species that are 'crying' out they are being left behind.Make any sense?.Sure does to me.Take care,Paul...

This is a new generation boys. Faster bows better sites 50+ yrds shots are increasing.
You old farts need to keep up with the times. It was like people saying to never take a shot at a deer over 100yrds with a 30-30. People are dropping deer over 150yrds with a 30-30 quite easy for that matter. Faster arrow speeds,quieter bows 50 yrd shots are comming. Bet they all said nothing over 30 yrds with a recurve to untill the compound came out. I feel very comfortable with taking a 50 yrd shot. I seen Nugent take a 80 yrd shot on a running animal and nailed it. It's a new generation of hunters and equipment.

Nice...... Glad you shared that with us.

Get all of your facts straight and your favorite conservation organization behind you like Delaney did.

Delaney is a big oaf, but I like the kid anyway. :party0005:

He's the first true grassroots commissioner we've had in some time.

Denny you've met Jay so I respect your opinions,good or bad.

Pa Gobbler has not to my knowledge and neither has some of the close people he gets his information from.

I also found it somewhat interesting and distasteful that the topic was about crossbows but somehow Jay got dragged into this and Gobbler had the nerve to talk about 'someone elses' agenda.:violin:

Kinda had to get off his orginal topic to directly take a shot at someone to my knowledge hes never met but would sit down with him and talk issues anytime,anyplace,but its easier to do things this way.

I'm sorry too for getting off topic but I'm sick of seeing the crybabies whine over something they have the power to improve if they just used some different tactics other then personal attacks and character assination when the person they are attacking is very approachable and willing to work with anyone.

That doesnt mean he has all the answers but it also doent mean he deserves to be drug threw and slung mud all over either.Take care,Paul..

Please note you did change the topic! You went from crossbows to pheasants.So what agenda do you want to discuss? Do you want your name drug threw every negative discussion out there?

Wouldnt you like to see some positives?Politics is politics.Now are you trying to say the BOC has control over legislation too?

Pick your battle and we'll discuss it.You know my stance on pheasants.Its the same as the other 90 thousand hunters who want it .As far as crossbows.I'm sorry I dont have a opinion on that.

Maybe you and your flunkies can get the nerve to talk issues face to face with him some day or take a day off and attend a meeting but I forgot those days are to precious to give up cause a grouse may flush someplace and you guys may not be there,but how can that be when theres no good grouse habitat because all the money is put towards pheasants and its a shame RGS wants Super Recruiters and new Chapters and new members but takes every single dime from a banquet.15k should would go along ways to grouse habitat.But I guess since they are having trouble with members and chapters thats what they are totally restructuring their finacinal programs,bout time after nearly 50 yrs in exsistence.But thats rights its the PGC and the Boc and specifically Jay Delenay's fault theres no grouse habitat and no money going towards it too.Keep reminding me of that please.Take care,Paul...

When you are in that type of position and you play politics which the BOC should not be doing, they will hear about it. Not just from “flunkies” but from outdoor writers and hunters of this state. I've heard it all now, BOC members not wanting people to disagree that's classic. Must be some ego

:confused0024:

Chirs you havent heard it all.Heres actually some useful information for you.

Theres a total of 8 members on the BOC maybe you didnt know that but I'm sure your good friend Jeff Kellar did and I'll post the names of those members

Gerg Isabella
James Delaney
Ronald weaner
Tom Boop
David Schereffler
David Putnam
Robert Schlerner
Ralph Martone

The way you and Jeff say Jay Delaney this and Jay Delaney that you'd swear by God he is the only one who makes decisions because neither of you EVER EVER use another name excpet this once I did see Weaners name tossed in the fire.

Chris maybe someday you and Jeff can have a 'high profile' volunteer job that takes 50+ hrs on top of your regular job and requires you to appear all across the state and where your placed under a microscope for everything you say and you or he can do better.Like I told Jeff those positions are availabe but I guess he didnt want it while his area had a opening.

Its too bad your so young.Someday you'll learn weither we like it or not or have control over it or not Politics is everywhere my friend.Take care,Paul...

Also dont put words in mouth.I never said the Boc doesnt expect anyone to disagree with them,for crying out loud whos ever going to make a decison a million hunters agree with?.Like I said those positions are 'WIDE' open and those who think they can do better by all means should apply.

Once in the shoes of another man will soon find out how tight the fit is.

Now since the general topic of the thread is 'greed' and you'd like to discuss why theres no money for grouse habitat I'd be happy to discuss why all our banquet money,PLUS money we already had in our RGS chapter account that 'we' did fund rasiers for was all taken from us.I'd be happy to hear your imput and discuss how things are hard to accomplish on local levels with no money,or is that the PGC and BOC's fault too?.Take care,Paul...

Thanks Paul, I already know who the commissioners are. One of them wasn't in yet for the voting for the revised x-bow vote.

Again if any of the members don't want to be held accountable for decisions they make then they need to step down.

Seems like your posts are going off the deep end, I never ever said I wanted to sit on the BOC, one I wouldn't want to and two I'm not qualified to.

Thanks for calling me young buddy I was starting to feel kinda old, it might because i'm outta shape. :s1: but again playing politics should not be in the BOC.

If you want to discuss pheasants and grouse or RGS,PF,NRA, NWTF please start a thread and I will give my thoughts and feelings on them. We might get lucky and have your leader sign on, maybe name himself Mr. PA and he'll make one post and leave :confused:

Chris I'm Glad you knew who they were.I guess since your one of a few just so bent out of shape over the pheasant situation that when anything goes astray in the PGC or BOC Jays name is the only you can use because hes the only one you and a few of your friends would like to attack personally every chance they get,now I uderstand:biggrin:.

My posts arent going off the deep end,Just trying to 'reel' you in a little.Actually its refreshing to see you admit your not qualified,not something alot of people can admit.And as far as playing Politics thats part of the game no wants to play but you what,its out there and alot of people play it weither we want to believe it or not,weither we like or not.How do you think a bow season for bear got passed? Politics.How do you think a xtra Spring turkey tag got on the license? Politics.unfortunately its out there in places it shouldnt be but when it works for those who wnat something its fine and we all plug along,when it doesnt,look out,the sky is falling.

I did call you young.That was just a compliment.Your 15 yrs younger then me so I've seen a few more things then you have so far,some good,some bad.Your likely to see the same in the future.

Now Jay is and was Mr PA. You guys are really something LOL.Some proof would go a long ways you know.

I would start a thread on the Conservation groups but I'm considered the guys that bashes one over the other when in fact I'm just stating facts that some dont like to hear and would rather not like have made public.

When in fact I'm the bad guy who went to one already established group to help another just getting off the ground get paid for a habitat project that their very own biologist never told them about or that they could get paid for it too or the days to show up for the project.

I was also the bad guy who went to the already established conservation groups habitat chairman to cut the guys who showed up to work at the project and cut them a check from one conservations groups funds so they could open 'their' own bank account for 'thier' conservation organazation.I'm one bad son of a..

Nope I'm not gonna go that route.I'm content in knowing what I know and what I've done and what I'll continue to do.I'm sure there will come a time when we discuss this on another webiste tho and your very likey to see my same replies.So send Jeff here if you havent already so he'll have ample time to have some good answers for me and some decent proof that Mr PA is and was Jay....Thats really good stuff there.He wouldnt ever lower himself to that level but think as you wish.Take care,Paul...