WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
06-21-2009, 04:44 AM
#31
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 86
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
One also has to know if the harvest data is the actual reported harvest or the calculated harvest and how the deer densities were determined. If they were calculated based on the reported harvest versus the calculated harvests the densities could be much lower than if they were based on harvest estimates.
One also has to know if the harvest data is the actual reported harvest or the calculated harvest and how the deer densities were determined. If they were calculated based on the reported harvest versus the calculated harvests the densities could be much lower than if they were based on harvest estimates.
I'd love to have the actual reported PGC Deer harvest data for the last 10 years or so; my guess is we will have wait for the upcoming Aduit or file a FOI request in order to get it.
06-21-2009, 04:55 AM
#32
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Carbon County Pa.
Posts: 601
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
In 2007 we only harvested 2.42 buck PSM which is pathetic when compared to the 2001 harvest of 4.51 buck PSM.
In 2007 we only harvested 2.42 buck PSM which is pathetic when compared to the 2001 harvest of 4.51 buck PSM.
.
06-21-2009, 05:12 AM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
Because we can't shoot spikes and forkhorns anymore our buck harvest fell 54 %
06-21-2009, 05:38 AM
#34
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Carbon County Pa.
Posts: 601
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
ARs decreased our buck harvest from 203K in 2001 to 165K in 2002 ,which is a decrease of 17% ,not 54%.If the herd was not being reduced the buck harvest in 2003 would have returned to around 190 K but instead it dropped to 142K,which is a decrease of 30% from 2001.
Because we can't shoot spikes and forkhorns anymore our buck harvest fell 54 %
06-21-2009, 06:26 AM
#35
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 584
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: Screamin Steel
TWO glaring questions form that post, RSB...First, the record high population estimate was 1.6 million and challenged even by DR Rosenberry as being too high an estimate. Harvest trends indicate approximately 50% decline in population since the onset of HR which makes your "research" preposterous. Your "exteremly low" estimate of 1 million animals is likely very high. Try more in the neighborhood of 500-750,000. That gives you DD averages closer to 11-15, placing us squarely at the bottom of that list, which seems to be supported by FLIR studies and harvest reports. Why the intentional deception????
Secondly, you stated that the PGC no longer releases population models to the public. WHY? We justed listed several states in the dialogue of this thread that willingly provide much more information to the public, specifically Virginia which manages roughly the same size state geographically, more comprehensively on a much smaller budget. What is PA hiding. If they released their data you wouldn't have to "research" your own population model (see pull out of your arse.) out of thin air. As for reading those chronicles with an open mind, do you mean the way the commissioners approached the xbow vote overwhelmingly objected by sportsmen, or the open minded way they opted for smaller wmu's and lowering tag allocations that continue to reduce the herd under the guise of "stabilization" mode?
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.
You are correct that no other state, not only in the eastern U.S., but anywhere in the nation has as many hunters as what we have in Pennsylvania. Why isn’t that considered as a positive thing instead of a negative?
But, you keep repeatedly making this claim that all the other states have higher deer densities and based on some research I just did I find that statement to be both FALSE and misleading.
Not all of the surrounding states express a deer population estimate, just like Pennsylvania no longer provides to the public. But I am going to post the deer density estimates for the surrounding states that did release an estimate. Since the states all vary in size and to make it comparable for all of the states I have reduced their deer population estimates to deer per square mile.
Here is the various state deer population estimates in deer per square mile of land mass:
State…………………..deer/sq. mile…………………….deer harvest/sq. mile
Ohio……………………..14.7.…………… ……………….........6.15
Virginia………………….25.3.…………… ……………….........6.41
Michigan………………..30.0.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.79
New York……………….21.2.…………………⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.72
Wisconsin……………….18.4.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........5.10
Maryland………………..25.6.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........9.43
Pennsylvania……………………………….. ................................7.41
Now, if we figured Pennsylvania at an extremely low estimated deer populatoin of only one million deer the number per square mile would be 22.3 deer per square mile. That is a deer population that is very much in line with all of the other states.
Of course the deer are not distributed evenly over the landscape of any state. Some areas have better habitat and thus have more deer. Other areas have no deer because there is no deer habitat. I am sure that fact is true in each of the states.
But, the bottom line is that Pennsylvania deer populations are obviously very much in line with the other states or our deer harvests couldn’t be sustained at the high levels they are.
As for those Deer Chronicles I think everyone should read them with an open mind, maybe they could learn something.
R.S. Bodenhorn
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
"Almost all Eastern states with the exception of NE states are now this liberal with bag limits on deer."
Not ONE other eastern state has even close to 900,000 hunters and deer densities as low as ours along with them.
I also have no problems with any state including pa being able to harvest as many deer per person as tags are available going from wmu to wmu. Problem is, many wmus should have lower allocations. It is fine to get say 4 doe tags if you want to hunt 3 or 4 wmus and they are available. Its quite another when you can get 2 three or 4 in ONE wmu here in Pa where the added harvest is far from needed.
"Almost all Eastern states with the exception of NE states are now this liberal with bag limits on deer."
Not ONE other eastern state has even close to 900,000 hunters and deer densities as low as ours along with them.
I also have no problems with any state including pa being able to harvest as many deer per person as tags are available going from wmu to wmu. Problem is, many wmus should have lower allocations. It is fine to get say 4 doe tags if you want to hunt 3 or 4 wmus and they are available. Its quite another when you can get 2 three or 4 in ONE wmu here in Pa where the added harvest is far from needed.
You are correct that no other state, not only in the eastern U.S., but anywhere in the nation has as many hunters as what we have in Pennsylvania. Why isn’t that considered as a positive thing instead of a negative?
But, you keep repeatedly making this claim that all the other states have higher deer densities and based on some research I just did I find that statement to be both FALSE and misleading.
Not all of the surrounding states express a deer population estimate, just like Pennsylvania no longer provides to the public. But I am going to post the deer density estimates for the surrounding states that did release an estimate. Since the states all vary in size and to make it comparable for all of the states I have reduced their deer population estimates to deer per square mile.
Here is the various state deer population estimates in deer per square mile of land mass:
State…………………..deer/sq. mile…………………….deer harvest/sq. mile
Ohio……………………..14.7.…………… ……………….........6.15
Virginia………………….25.3.…………… ……………….........6.41
Michigan………………..30.0.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.79
New York……………….21.2.…………………⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.72
Wisconsin……………….18.4.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........5.10
Maryland………………..25.6.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........9.43
Pennsylvania……………………………….. ................................7.41
Now, if we figured Pennsylvania at an extremely low estimated deer populatoin of only one million deer the number per square mile would be 22.3 deer per square mile. That is a deer population that is very much in line with all of the other states.
Of course the deer are not distributed evenly over the landscape of any state. Some areas have better habitat and thus have more deer. Other areas have no deer because there is no deer habitat. I am sure that fact is true in each of the states.
But, the bottom line is that Pennsylvania deer populations are obviously very much in line with the other states or our deer harvests couldn’t be sustained at the high levels they are.
As for those Deer Chronicles I think everyone should read them with an open mind, maybe they could learn something.
R.S. Bodenhorn
Secondly, you stated that the PGC no longer releases population models to the public. WHY? We justed listed several states in the dialogue of this thread that willingly provide much more information to the public, specifically Virginia which manages roughly the same size state geographically, more comprehensively on a much smaller budget. What is PA hiding. If they released their data you wouldn't have to "research" your own population model (see pull out of your arse.) out of thin air. As for reading those chronicles with an open mind, do you mean the way the commissioners approached the xbow vote overwhelmingly objected by sportsmen, or the open minded way they opted for smaller wmu's and lowering tag allocations that continue to reduce the herd under the guise of "stabilization" mode?
Last year Pennsylvania hunters harvested 7.41 deer per square mile. It is very unlikely that the hunters came close to even harvesting a third of our statewide deer population let alone over half as your estimated herd size of only 11-15 deer per square mile would suggest.
Also the Game Commission has had several hundred tagged antler less deer in the deer population over the past few years, some of which are also wearing radio transmitters so they can be tracked. Hunters are annually harvesting less then 15% of those antler less deer that can be proven to be in existence.
That would indicate that hunters are not coming close to harvesting a third of the deer population and most likely aren’t even harvesting a quarter of the state’s deer population during any year. So, based on the facts an estimate of one million preseason deer in this state is a VERY conservative population estimate.
The Game Commission stopped providing an estimated deer population, to the public, because it was simply an estimate and to many people, just like you, used it to criticize and cast doubt. If people aren’t going to accept the data, and instead just challenge it, there isn’t much use in providing it in the first place, is there.
R.S. Bodenhorn
06-21-2009, 06:53 AM
#36
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 584
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: J Pike
RSB. Can you provide a link that states that OH. only has 14.7 DPSM?
If that is true than PA. has far less than 14.7 DPSM!!
Maybe bluebird can help me out here and run the numbers, OH. had a 2008 pre season deer herd of around 760,000 whitetails.
Also lets stop trying to spin the #'s. The fact of the matter is 450,000 OH. deer hunters harvested only around 70,000 deer less than 900,000 + PA. deer hunters did in 2008, and in case you didnt know the state of OH. is smaller in size than the state of PA.!! If you are trying to claim that PA. has anywhere close to the same DPSM on avg. as OH. your fibbing or just like Gino trying to comment on a subject that you have NO clue about. Pike
RSB. Can you provide a link that states that OH. only has 14.7 DPSM?
If that is true than PA. has far less than 14.7 DPSM!!
Maybe bluebird can help me out here and run the numbers, OH. had a 2008 pre season deer herd of around 760,000 whitetails.
Also lets stop trying to spin the #'s. The fact of the matter is 450,000 OH. deer hunters harvested only around 70,000 deer less than 900,000 + PA. deer hunters did in 2008, and in case you didnt know the state of OH. is smaller in size than the state of PA.!! If you are trying to claim that PA. has anywhere close to the same DPSM on avg. as OH. your fibbing or just like Gino trying to comment on a subject that you have NO clue about. Pike
I got it from this link from the Ohio DNR Division of Wildlife.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub087.pdf
And this newspaper article which also explains how Ohio is actively trying to reduce their deer population to even lower numbers of deer.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/insight/stories/2007/04/01/deer_in_ohio.ART_ART_04-01-07_B1_6S67V6J.html
And, this newspaper article concerning last year’s deer population estimate and harvest numbers.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/12/09/deerhunt.ART_ART_12-09-08_B1_19C66LC.html?sid=101
The comparatively low deer population in Ohio, as compared to Pennsylvania, is undoubtedly due to the fact that Ohio has more industrial and city areas that are covered with pavement then what occurs in Pennsylvania.
Ohio probably has a higher deer population per square mile of DEER HABITAT then Pennsylvania, but only because they have better soils that grow better food being combined with the fact that they have always harvested a higher percentage of their deer each year to protect the deer food supply. Of course all of the farm crops in Ohio undoubtedly helps keep there deer numbers higher, in the areas that have deer, too.
Pennsylvania has far more land mass that supports deer then what Ohio has, though much of the Pennsylvania deer range is steep mountainous land with rocky outcroppings where no deer food grows so naturally fewer deer can be supported per square mile as compared to the rich and lush farm land soils of Ohio.
R.S. Bodenhorn
06-21-2009, 07:44 AM
#38
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
That would indicate that hunters are not coming close to harvesting a third of the deer population and most likely aren’t even harvesting a quarter of the state’s deer population during any year. So, based on the facts an estimate of one million preseason deer in this state is a VERY conservative population estimate
06-21-2009, 08:14 AM
#39
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
>ARs decreased our buck harvest from 203K in 2001 to 165K in 2002
Beenthere, I realize your memory is fading fast.
AR were changed in PA in 2002 but they were also changed again in 2003 and have reamined that way thru this upcoming season.
SRA's did not have AR in 2002, starting 2003 they did. The 4 point area was 30% smaller in 2002 than it was 2003-present.
A county like Greene was under the 3 point rule where you got automatic credit for a brow tine. The 2002 harvest only dropped 140 deer from 2001. Starting in 2003 Greene fell under the 4 point rule and a brow tine had to really exist. The 2003 buck harvest was little more than half of what it was in 2002. That did not mean there suddenly was half as many deer in Greene County. The new AR's were the reason.
2001 - 4196
2002 - 3956
2003 - 2200
BT the buck harvest was 203k in 2001 and 141k in 2003 which was the first year that AR's were the same as last years AR's.
141k(2003) vs. 125k(2008), but keep in mind there were fewer hunters afield last year as compared to 2003.
Here is your math assignment for today. what was the buck hunter success value for 2003 and what was it for 2008?
part b.) how much of a difference was there between the two values?
WV Gino
Beenthere, I realize your memory is fading fast.
AR were changed in PA in 2002 but they were also changed again in 2003 and have reamined that way thru this upcoming season.
SRA's did not have AR in 2002, starting 2003 they did. The 4 point area was 30% smaller in 2002 than it was 2003-present.
A county like Greene was under the 3 point rule where you got automatic credit for a brow tine. The 2002 harvest only dropped 140 deer from 2001. Starting in 2003 Greene fell under the 4 point rule and a brow tine had to really exist. The 2003 buck harvest was little more than half of what it was in 2002. That did not mean there suddenly was half as many deer in Greene County. The new AR's were the reason.
2001 - 4196
2002 - 3956
2003 - 2200
BT the buck harvest was 203k in 2001 and 141k in 2003 which was the first year that AR's were the same as last years AR's.
141k(2003) vs. 125k(2008), but keep in mind there were fewer hunters afield last year as compared to 2003.
Here is your math assignment for today. what was the buck hunter success value for 2003 and what was it for 2008?
part b.) how much of a difference was there between the two values?
WV Gino
06-21-2009, 08:31 AM
#40
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
Here is your math assignment for today. what was the buck hunter success value for 2003 and what was it for 2008?
part b.) how much of a difference was there between the two values?
part b.) how much of a difference was there between the two values?