WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

What do you think should be done to fix Pas deer problems if Pgc continues to be unwilling to do so??

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Your open mindedness is like a breath of stale air. There could be some insignificantadjustments to humor some of the malcontents but as we lose hunt able land tohomes and autos a reasonable person understands population adjustments are needed to avoid human-deer conflict's.
Farmers profit margins are paper thin and the other 92% of non hunting Pennsylvanians don't desirethe deer in every basket mentality that some of you seem to have.
If you see the P.G.C. as your enemy,then maybe you are involved in the wrong fore-pleasure activities, maybe you'd be more suitedto golf.:eek:

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

O Send calming letters to the PGC letting them know that the internet legend, Cornelius The Great, will do them no harm.

O Isn't it obvious, put Cornelius in charge!!!!;)[8D]

Just two options that should be added to the poll.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"Your open mindedness is like a breath of stale air"

Oh, Im sorry, I didnt realize i had to be open minded about being hosed for no good reason by the Pennsylvania game commission.

"There could be some insignificant adjustments to humor some of the malcontents but as we lose hunt able land to homes and autos a reasonable person understands population adjustments are needed to avoid human-deer conflict's."

Yes. and that has more than been addressed with ANY reduction we would have implemented and not an excuse for the extremes. There are also cacs that were implemented to address human conflicts and despite most of them suggesting increase or stabilization, the reductions have continued...Many wmuss had been rated as LOW HUMAN CONFLICT...by pgc themselves, PRIOR to reduction, even in a previously high deer populated wmu such as 2A. So that excuse holds no water.

"Farmers profit margins are paper thin and the other 92% of non hunting Pennsylvanians don't desire the deer "

WAAA for the poor farmer, we only cut the damn herd in half for not the tiny minority who actually farm, but those that farm AND want rock bottom deer numbers ! See posts on other threads about farmers posting land because of deer slaughter, ehd deaths etc.. Not all landowners want all the deer dead dispite the fact it makes a handy excuse for you extremist pgc supporters.....and again, the cacs were put into place, supposedly for a reason pal. LOL


They also have redtag, dmap, and farmer shoot em up laws that make it legal for them or others they appoint to shoot deer day and night....Again, no excuse for irresponsible deer management..

"in every basket mentality that some of you seem to have. "

You mean those of us who do not support getting screwed by pgc, lies manipulation, and unnecessarily low deer herd with herd levels as low as the lowest states in the nation and going lower? If thats being a basketcase, sign me up. But Id hardly call 80-90% of our ranks deer in every basket mentalities because they arent asnine enough to support the pgc/audubon fraud deer program. My views on the topic are as "middle of the road" as it gets on these issues. Pgc just isnt a beloved agency at this moment in time by any stretch of the imagination. Just ask Alt about his bullet proof vest! LMAO

BTW, the HUGE majority of hunters AND nonhunters did NOT want and beg for fewer deer.

"If you see the P.G.C. as your enemy,then maybe you are involved in the wrong fore-pleasure activities, maybe you'd be more suited to golf"

I have zero interest in golf, and you have a better chance of quitting hunting than it do.;) But Im sure pgc would benefit us much more as golfers than they do the hunters of this state and thats a fact. No more deer pellets on the greens. Lmao.:D

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

You are right Ben, Those both would be better options than doing nothing other than bending to the will of the gameless commission and their econut agenda.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

When you bring up Dr.Gary Alt you are truly reaching. Why is it you don't hold your fellow hunters whom are actually shooting the deer as responsible as those who are letting them?
And since as long as I've been hunting we have had the one buck rule so for me to see dozens more during the season is pointless.
I manage my land for as many deer as I can and since this is still America the rest of the states land owners have that same privilege.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"When you bring up Dr.Gary Alt you are truly reaching. Why is it you don't hold your fellow hunters whom are actually shooting the deer as responsible as those who are letting them?"

Alt will always be tied to this fiasco considering the large role he played. I see nothing to gain by forgetting our history and how it ties in with where our future is headed. While you do have somewhat of a point in regards to hunters, My fellow hunters arent an organized group. They also arent paid to manage the deer herd. When I start forking over my green to them for a hunting license each year, to pay them for their management, then I'll hold them more responsible than pgc.

"And since as long as I've been hunting we have had the one buck rule so for me to see dozens more during the season is pointless."

I dont shoot the first buck I see so it doesnt really matter to me. The less available to see, are less available for next year to grow another year. And as for only needing to see one, you also might wanna try telling that to those other than we 10-12% who are successful at getting a buck each year.

"I manage my land for as many deer as I can and since this is still America the rest of the states land owners have that same privilege. "

Hunters shouldnt need to spend $200,000 to have reasonable deer numbers to hunt. There are plenty of private landowners that permit hunting and plenty of gamelands and state forests. They are all hit with far too many tags, and sorry, but I dont see hunters inability or unwillingness to spend the loot on land as a good excuse to let pgc off the hook in regards to the environementalist driven statewide deer program.

Btw, just noticed your sig line....Thats even funnier than liar btbs sig line talking about religion! LOL. Pa's big bucks! LMAO. Thats an oxymoron if Id ever heard one! LOLOLOL. Having that on your posts, your gonna get those who actually hunt Pa to thinking you mentally impaired in some way.:(

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

If you think stopping other hunters from shooting doe is the answer,does that mean you support the USP lawsuit?

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

No I don't. And Frankly I find the idea of pissing the limited dollars that they have to work withaway defending an ideology that does not meet your objectives absurd.
Hunters are a very small percentage of this states population and the P.G.C. works for all of this states residents and is also handcuffed by federal regulation that effect all of the wildlife PA has to offer.
A few self centered individuals whining should not be considered the basis for a law suit.
I will say it again,start with grass roots program,educate your neighbors set harvest goals and you will see results. Shouting on the INTERNET achieves nothing.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"Hunters are a very small percentage of this states population"

But MUCH larger in number than those very few that were seeking less deer. SO dont act as if all this was done for the greatest good....This was done to cater to every whim, all the way, no compromise, to environmental nincompoops and timber industy.

"and the P.G.C. works for all of this states residents and is also handcuffed by federal regulation that effect all of the wildlife PA has to offer.
A few self centered individuals whining should not be considered the basis for a law suit."

Hunter rights should be defendable in court no matter what organization they belong to. On behalf of everyone else, there was the license fee increase denial.;)

"I will say it again,start with grass roots program,educate your neighbors set harvest goals and you will see results. Shouting on the INTERNET achieves nothing."

Nope. No replacement for proper management practices more like those implemented in just about every other state. Reasonable deer herd goals. Most dont hunt on their own land and Id say most hunt alot more than one piece of land, so "grassroots efforts" begging the neighbors not to shoot deer is not viable option.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"Shouting on the INTERNET achieves nothing."

Dont bet on it.;)

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

So how is your method of just shouting down your opposition on the INTERNET working for ya?:eek:

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

More effectively than your idea of grassroots efforts, which i and the majority of our states hunter who have absolutely no chance of utilizing is. Might be effective on a localized basis here or there, if you are lucky enough to be a landowner etc... That accounts for a tiny percentage of us overall.

I respect the option you have chosen. Its not realistic for most of us. Thats just the way it is.

And yes, I have seen results in many ways from hunters voicing opinion on the internet + everywhere else combined. As much as can be expected. I know for a fact legislators have taken notice on many occassions as has pgc and others. Ive even had a post of mine awhile back spoken of in an article from a well known writer! LMAO.

It accomplishes nothing at all to put on a show of contentment when thats not reality. Makes about as much sense as having a faulty product and not contacting the company to complain or taking it back to the store for your money back. The system is broken and keeping our mouth shut is the absolute worst thing to do. Pgc is supposed to be doing what is best for us or at least compromising, not just what the econuts want because they hold influential positions within pgc and dcnr.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

My neighbors are farmers that don't hunt and would be happy if we had zero deer. What should I tell them to convince them we should have a lot more deer?

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

There are always a few of those, and also those others, around here, that want more deer to preserve quality of hunting for themselves family or friends just post their land up to avoid the pgc slaughter... You just cant win with this worthless blanket slaughter deer plan.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Is that not their right? If you find rats in your shed you kill them.

At last you might see my point, not everyone love the deer that we so enjoy hunting. Farmers, foresters and many others do not enjoy deer sightingslike we as hunters do. And since we are such a small percentage of the states population, us demanding more deer at others expense is just being unreasonable.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

THere are many tools available for those who want less deer and are interested in subtraction. (the minority overal).

You keep ignoring the truth which does not support your argument... The tiny minority are who dictate this ridiculous deer management. Not the hunters who are not the minority. Because we arent against the views of the rest of society. A tiny faction of econuts and other stakeholders are against us. Majority of society support us or arent even concerned one way or another...

As I spoke of above, the herd where needed can always be subtracted from. Unfortunately there is no adding going on everywhere else All the private land that dont care or dont want the slaughter or the gamelands.

Its a failed program with a tiny minority dictating rock bottom deer numbers, and blanket slaughter statewide and how on earth anyone wouldnt see that as a problem is beyond me.

And the only thing unreasonable is the way despite LOW HUMAN CONFLICT ratings in many wmus, and that also took into account farmers.... many even since day one with much higher herd levels....Yet..The slaughter continues. Perhaps we should just throw away the cacs and hunter voice as well and just ask farmer Brown (as long as farmer Brown wants less deer not more) Up in Wash. Co. how many even fewer deer still he would like, not on his farm....but statewide!? Unreal![:'(]

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

I listen to you state that you absolutely no problem killing a buck with archery equipment each and every year yet berate biologist for decimating the herd. Are there hunt able deer numbers in your area? There are in mine. Would I like more ? of course. Isthat realistic ? I don't know.
I just find your call to destroy the organization that we have in place to regulate hunting as an invitation for a Pandora's box epidemic for the antis to take hunters and hunting completely out of the picture and turn hunter paid for game lands into parks such at Gettysburg where hired snippers will be paid to kill the deer and dump them into rotting pits.
Please be careful what you wish for.[:@]

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Seeing as how they own the land that feeds them, convincing them to feed a lot more is probably hopeless. Forcing them to feed them by not controlling the numbers is just plain wrong and is exactly the point to letting all stakeholders into the process.

Timber companies are no different. Their crop is the trees and they should not have to sustain deerdensities on their land that would make regeration of their most desired tree crop impossible or too costly.
Hunters like you clamor for more deer claiming that the forest can support em. maybe it can, but that landowner has the right to protect his crop from deer or anyother critter from destroyingit, be it soybeans or or corn or oak trees

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"I listen to you state that you absolutely no problem killing a buck with archery equipment each and every year yet berate biologist for decimating the herd. Are there hunt able deer numbers in your area? There are in mine."

Yes. There are. But that doesnt mean my satisfaction and that of a helluva lot of others hasnt been greatly maleffected. Ive explained how and why in great detail on a helluva lot of posts since Ive been a member here, and by now you should know my position quite well...Not to mention the herd is STILL declining!! LOL. At what point is it Ok by you for the hunters of this state to get pizzed???.

" Would I like more ? of course. Is that realistic ? I don't know. "

Of course it is. Why couldnt it?

"I just find your call to destroy the organization that we have in place to regulate hunting as an invitation for a Pandora's box epidemic for the antis to take hunters and hunting completely out of the picture"

First Jim, I think the antis are a nonissue joke...thats my position anyway. The biggest threat these days does NOT come from Them, and I dont think i need to tell you my opinion on who is.... The sometimes friendly when its convenient, sometimes not... environmentalists...

I also am not making any real call to destroy anyone. My position is flexible. I see many possible solutions. However i think the most viable option to work long term, at least of those I listed would be option 4.

"and turn hunter paid for game lands into parks such at Gettysburg where hired snippers will be paid to kill the deer and dump them into rotting pits.
Please be careful what you wish for"

C'mon now Jim. Thats more than a bit "out there". Thats a pretty far fetch scare tactic scenario. Not gonna happen. And certainly not a realistic reason to stop complaining about current mismanagement!

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"Hunters like you clamor for more deer claiming that the forest can support em. maybe it can, but that landowner has the right to protect his crop from deer or any other critter from destroying it, be it soybeans or or corn or oak trees "

And they have effective tools to deal with them, as well as having SOME statewide reduction compared to previously would also have addressed to an extent. Taking that into consideration they have NO BUSINESS dicatating how few deer we will have STATEWIDE. None.

BTW, the cacs have all those stakeholders accounted for, and the suggestions have been increase or stabilization for all wmus except sras thus far. Yet the decline statewide continues. Despite goals of supposed stabilization for 4 years. And despite low human conflict ratings where reduction STILL continues. All that over-rides any issue you bring up with farmers foresters or anything else, unless you think they should have the ONLY say.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

You are correct that a very small percentage of the population is doing the work of controlling the herd. But, if we decide we no longer want to do the work of controlling the herd , then the taxpayers will have to pay for the service that we as hunters pay for the privilige of controlling the herd.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Like all wildlife I think deer numbers run in cycles, in some areas I think deer numbers will rebound, in others they will continue to decline.
And like deerI think some hunters will adapt and excel while still others will quit out of sheer frustration. As both have in the past.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

That doesnt mean its good hunters are quitting and becoming a less efficient management tool + funding providers, and it also doesnt mean those who still find success havent had their satisfaction maleffected.

As for those cycles, I dont see it. Here, according to pgc annual report which my observations agree with, the herd has been in basically a steady downhill slide since the late 1990's.

Deer will not be cyclic in Pa. We dont have mass winterkill and the habitat generally doesnt change overnight. If they arent slaughtered, they will be where they have what they need consistently. The main factor right now in most areas is the allocation. The allocation is too high and the herd is too low.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

I hope more hunters do not quit over all this BS. that was shoved down our throats. Im talking everything here. But after this audit and the GC. gets their lic.increase their will be people quitting for sure not because they want to but you folks can figure the rest of the equation out here.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

There will be a mass decline in hunters within a couple of years of the increase that the rubber stamp audit will enable.

Some because of the money and more will be because of more extreme deer management than we even have now, with unstoppable further reduction to the herd and even lower modern day lows, which pgc will be then 100% free to do thanks to no further check and balance in the way of fee increase prevention by legislators.

And more an more of the funding burden will be placed on our shoulders because of all this nonsense, until pgc gets what it wants with general funding and ignoring us even more if that is even physically possible.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

The audit will definetly seal the deal. Its amusing though at this point in time with the economy the way it is and it makes u wonder this. GC. claiming their going broke, DCNR, closing 30+ parks is this a ripe time for a merger or what.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

I have seen no call for or reasoning behind further herd reduction except in SGA and those have no influence on most of us.

Just how much of a license increase will it take to affect your decision to hunt?

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Oh...Im gonna hunt Jim. Dont you worry about that. LOL;) Regardless of the money or the reduction. But thats not speaking for everyone else, and that doesnt mean I have to like either, though I like the reduction a helluva lot less than any price they can stick us with.

"I have seen no call for or reasoning behind further herd reduction except in SGA and those have no influence on most of us."

Then perhaps you'd better take a look at the annual report because we are STILL being reduced in the majority of wmus RIGHT NOW despite claimed goal of stabilization the last 4 years. let alone in the future. With no fewer tags this season, it will once again be more of the same. Econuts, audubon and others including dcnr want fewer deer. They were instrumental in our deer plans inception and the only reason more decline yet hasnt occurred is because of legislators inconveniencing pgc with the need to ok a fee increase, and thats why the drain is running slower ...but not stopped...at the moment..

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Im not sure of all the details 2with, but there are definately hunter unfriendly agendas in play. That isnt even debatable imho.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

How many more deer would you like to see during the season? What number would you find satisfactory?

And how will we know? If the deer kill goes up you say we are reducing the herd, if it goes down you say we've killed them all. Haven't the last two years numbers been quite similar?

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

"How many more deer would you like to see during the season? What number would you find satisfactory? "

With reasonable deer numbers and stopping the unsupported further reductiion + allowing enough growth to account for some of that which was lost in the last few years of "supposed stabilization" everything else will then work itself out. Of course, I and everyone else will see more deer. Numberwise? Doesnt really matter, I'll see my share.;)

"And how will we know? If the deer kill goes up you say we are reducing the herd, if it goes down you say we've killed them all. Haven't the last two years numbers been quite similar? "

Yes. Both VERY LOW. The first year, according to pgc the weather was supposedly to blame for harvest being so low. That being the case, the buck harvest shoulda increased significantly since the claim was more deer would be available. That didnt happen even thought the weather was great last year, because the herd had been reduced. It was just as low as previously, only no excuse this time. It will be again this year. There will be even fewer deer available overall due to an efficient harvest thanks to having a smaller herd, + the good weather and tons of tags again last season.

My contention of declining deer herd is not MY assessment alone, based on the harvest. Pgc also has a deer herd change index on their annual report which shows herd decline or increase by wmu for the last few years. Most wmus have been a net decrease during last 4 years. Some significantly so. They refer to it as "stabilization" because some of them arent declining as fast as they were previously...LOL. I guess we should be thankful? LOL.[:'(]

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

As but one example from the annual report...

2a....Its a good example and one im most familiar with, though many other wmus could be shown for the example just as accurately...

in 2004 the herd declined 3%. In 2005 it did stay basically stable with 1% gain (thanks to weather i suppose). In 2006 the herd declined 7%. In 2007 it declined another 9%....

Now its not listed yet, but it just about certainly declined again this past season.

How many years of this should be accepted before we complain that we were originally supposed to have the herd size from back in 2004 or 05 when stabilization first became the goal?? Remember, this was after all of our "called for" reduction had already taken place!!

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Cornelius, what I hear out of that statement is that you aren't affected by the problemthat you spend so much time and energy on. Doesn'tquite compute.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Not effected enough to quit. Pgc and ecoflakes wont run me off from doing something that is 100% a big part of my lifestyle. Fix your computer.;)

I see "my share' now. I'd see "my share" with responsible change. "My share" is just a little larger (as would be everyone esles) with responsible changes.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

So you want a 20 % gain to occur? What is the number that it declined to in 07?

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Depends on the wmu ben. If using my example wmu, I think a 15-20% increase on what we have currently to be VERY reasonable considering all involved. Just as important as the increase numberwise , it would mean that the steady continued decrease that has been occurring will have finally ended.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

So what are the number's down to in 2A?

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

Though, this is the best area of the state as far as habitat type. My last computation not adding in any reduction from this past year puts it at less than 24 overwinter dpsm. And decreasing. With the steady decline and no attempt made to fix it, whos to say how low it will go? We have a ridiculously inapproprate high allocation of 55,000! Thats 10 thousand more than we used to reduce the much higher herd years ago! We could have used some reduction we got, since we were at a ridiculous 69 dpsm in 1999. Though the forest here, even with the overly high numbers was not damaged then, according to the earliest regeneration study. I believe you can understand that it doesnt take 45,000 tags to keep a deer herd of less than 25 owdpsm stable when that same number was reducing a herd much higher??? So Id imagine its pretty clear we dont need that many here NOW? Than maybe you can explain to me why we now have...not 45k,....but 55,000 LOL??

This is not big woods with low carry capacity like the north either. Similar habitat types in other states have herd goals of usually in the range of 35 to 40. Though Id be satisfied with less, especially with the ridiculous continued downhill slide stopped.

That says nothing of the wmus wotj areas of 10 dpsm and other ridiculousness either! lol.

RE: WHAT IS BEST FIX FOR THE BROKEN SYSTEM IN PA??
 

I was kind of split between tow options here. Legislators force the changes, and elected commissioners. I've always despised most governmental appointments of siignificance. It opens the door to way too much political back rubbing (see Rendell administation and Obama's latest nominee for supreme court justice.) why is it that we can elect senators and congressman, but Supreme court justices are appointed, albeit confirmed, with no voice of the people? They are ulitmately much more powerful by the nature of their appointment. Sorry to get off on a tangent here. I voted for legislators to force reasonable changes. Not quite ready to see DCNR take the reigns, and likewise don't necess. want the doors bolted, either. Leads to the obvious question of who would regulate hunting and wildlife?