There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
04-27-2009, 04:37 AM
#1
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
From Sundays Pittsburgh Tribune review:
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It looks like Weaner has come up with a common sense way to gradually implement the crossbow and monitor its'impactthat ought to answer the concerns that many bowhunters have.
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[/align]The debate over crossbows continues in Pennsylvania.
Just when it seems like it's kaput, it comes back to life in startling fashion.
That happened again last week. The crossbow saga — which might soon rival "Star Wars" for episodes — was guaranteed another sequel courtesy of a last-minute action taken at the Pennsylvania Game Commission meeting.
Early Tuesday, commissioners voted to give final approval to a proposal to allow magnifying scopes to be used on crossbows. That passed 6-1.
The action — the latest in a line stretching back more than six months — had the look of being the last hurdle to hunters being allowed to use crossbows statewide in all archery seasons starting this fall.
But then, in the two-day meeting's final action, commissioner Ron Weaner of Adams County proposed a change.
Weaner unveiled a four-point proposal. Most significantly, it would prohibit crossbow users from taking part in the archery bear season and limit them to hunting only the first two weeks of the six-week archery deer season.
Weaner explained his thinking by pointing out that no one knows how many people might use a crossbow to hunt deer and bears this fall, or how many animals they might kill. That calls for some caution, he said, while still giving crossbow users more opportunity than they've ever had.
"I'm trying to move into this a little more gradually rather than throwing open the doors with full inclusion," Weaner said.
Some commissioners are leaning the same way.
"I just want to point out, from my point of view, this idea has pretty strong support on the board," said commissioner Tom Boop of Northumberland County. "It's not just commissioner Weaner."
That could prove significant, given the changing makeup of the commission.
The vote to legalize crossbows for archery seasons statewide passed 4-3 in January. Two of those who voted affirmative, though — Russ Schleiden or Centre County and Roxane Palone of Greene County — are coming off the board. Their terms expired with last week's meeting.
The puts opponents of full inclusion of crossbows in the archery seasons in the majority, at least for now.
One of those is Jay Delaney, a commissioner from Luzerne County. He said Tuesday that crossbows have a place, though he's not sure it's statewide.
Boop agreed, and suggested many hunters do as well. He said most of the 1,000 or so comments he's received on the issue oppose the expansion of crossbow use.
Schleiden — the one who first proposed allowing crossbows in archery season — disputed that, however. Commissioners receive many of the same comments, he said, and it's untrue they were overwhelmingly against crossbows.
"I call it, at best, at worst, a tossup," Schleiden said.
It's not clear whether commissioners might approve Weaner's proposal, or be able to do so in time to impact the 2009-2010 hunting seasons. But he asked staff to determine what would be required to make that happen.
"My intention is that if it could happen in time for this year, I'd like to see it for this year. I'd like to move it forward as rapidly as possible," Weaner said.
"I just wanted to put it out there for people to be aware what we're thinking."
Weaner's proposal
Here are the specifics of Game Commissioner Ron Weaner's four-point proposal regarding when and if crossbows should be legal for hunting. His proposal would:
• Continue the existing crossbow permit program, which allows hunters with a doctor's excuse to use a crossbow in any archery season
• Continue to allow hunters with a muzzleloader license to hunt with a crossbow in the early and late muzzleloader seasons
• Prohibit the use of crossbows in the archery bear season, except for those with a disabled permit
• And limit crossbow use to the first two weeks of the six-week statewide archery season.
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Bob Frye covers the outdoors for the Tribune-Review. He can be reached via e-mail.
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It looks like Weaner has come up with a common sense way to gradually implement the crossbow and monitor its'impactthat ought to answer the concerns that many bowhunters have.
[/align]
[/align]The debate over crossbows continues in Pennsylvania.
Just when it seems like it's kaput, it comes back to life in startling fashion.
That happened again last week. The crossbow saga — which might soon rival "Star Wars" for episodes — was guaranteed another sequel courtesy of a last-minute action taken at the Pennsylvania Game Commission meeting.
Early Tuesday, commissioners voted to give final approval to a proposal to allow magnifying scopes to be used on crossbows. That passed 6-1.
The action — the latest in a line stretching back more than six months — had the look of being the last hurdle to hunters being allowed to use crossbows statewide in all archery seasons starting this fall.
But then, in the two-day meeting's final action, commissioner Ron Weaner of Adams County proposed a change.
Weaner unveiled a four-point proposal. Most significantly, it would prohibit crossbow users from taking part in the archery bear season and limit them to hunting only the first two weeks of the six-week archery deer season.
Weaner explained his thinking by pointing out that no one knows how many people might use a crossbow to hunt deer and bears this fall, or how many animals they might kill. That calls for some caution, he said, while still giving crossbow users more opportunity than they've ever had.
"I'm trying to move into this a little more gradually rather than throwing open the doors with full inclusion," Weaner said.
Some commissioners are leaning the same way.
"I just want to point out, from my point of view, this idea has pretty strong support on the board," said commissioner Tom Boop of Northumberland County. "It's not just commissioner Weaner."
That could prove significant, given the changing makeup of the commission.
The vote to legalize crossbows for archery seasons statewide passed 4-3 in January. Two of those who voted affirmative, though — Russ Schleiden or Centre County and Roxane Palone of Greene County — are coming off the board. Their terms expired with last week's meeting.
The puts opponents of full inclusion of crossbows in the archery seasons in the majority, at least for now.
One of those is Jay Delaney, a commissioner from Luzerne County. He said Tuesday that crossbows have a place, though he's not sure it's statewide.
Boop agreed, and suggested many hunters do as well. He said most of the 1,000 or so comments he's received on the issue oppose the expansion of crossbow use.
Schleiden — the one who first proposed allowing crossbows in archery season — disputed that, however. Commissioners receive many of the same comments, he said, and it's untrue they were overwhelmingly against crossbows.
"I call it, at best, at worst, a tossup," Schleiden said.
It's not clear whether commissioners might approve Weaner's proposal, or be able to do so in time to impact the 2009-2010 hunting seasons. But he asked staff to determine what would be required to make that happen.
"My intention is that if it could happen in time for this year, I'd like to see it for this year. I'd like to move it forward as rapidly as possible," Weaner said.
"I just wanted to put it out there for people to be aware what we're thinking."
Weaner's proposal
Here are the specifics of Game Commissioner Ron Weaner's four-point proposal regarding when and if crossbows should be legal for hunting. His proposal would:
• Continue the existing crossbow permit program, which allows hunters with a doctor's excuse to use a crossbow in any archery season
• Continue to allow hunters with a muzzleloader license to hunt with a crossbow in the early and late muzzleloader seasons
• Prohibit the use of crossbows in the archery bear season, except for those with a disabled permit
• And limit crossbow use to the first two weeks of the six-week statewide archery season.
04-27-2009, 05:23 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ohio,mid
Posts: 1,275
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
They can yammer all they want. The cat is out of the bag and the money is being spent on Xbow equipment as we speak. You can't say 'yea' and 6 weeks later say 'nay'. Again, the Board shows it's weakness and willy nilly thought process on hunting issues. This Xbow experience merely reflects what the Board has and is going to be doing in PA. This will probably be seen as a cause for applause by the anti Xbow crowd, but beware my friends, you ain't seen nothing yet. We got bigger fish to fry than this issue oin the state of PA. Xbow is the least of our worries!
04-27-2009, 06:04 AM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
ORIGINAL: Buck Hunter 1
They can yammer all they want. The cat is out of the bag and the money is being spent on Xbow equipment as we speak. You can't say 'yea' and 6 weeks later say 'nay'. Again, the Board shows it's weakness and willy nilly thought process on hunting issues. This Xbow experience merely reflects what the Board has and is going to be doing in PA. This will probably be seen as a cause for applause by the anti Xbow crowd, but beware my friends, you ain't seen nothing yet. We got bigger fish to fry than this issue oin the state of PA. Xbow is the least of our worries!
They can yammer all they want. The cat is out of the bag and the money is being spent on Xbow equipment as we speak. You can't say 'yea' and 6 weeks later say 'nay'. Again, the Board shows it's weakness and willy nilly thought process on hunting issues. This Xbow experience merely reflects what the Board has and is going to be doing in PA. This will probably be seen as a cause for applause by the anti Xbow crowd, but beware my friends, you ain't seen nothing yet. We got bigger fish to fry than this issue oin the state of PA. Xbow is the least of our worries!
It may well prove out that the impact of the crossbow has been overblown but this proposal is, plain and simple, common sense designed to proceed sensibly based on the potential impact of a new weapon on the harvest. It's what should have been done in the first place and anyone on either side who can be objective has to recognize that this is a step toward correcting a potentially big mistake. I'm not saying that the crossbow inclusion is a mistake. Only that the way it was done left no way to back away if the impact threatened an already short bow season (when compared to the bow season of other states). If the impact of the xbow on the harvestproves to be nominal , then they can proceed to expand it's inclusion to the full season.
BTW, I've talked to several bowshops and the wave of crossbow purchases hasnt begun yet. As expected, the potential crossbow newbies will likely be buying their new toy mere weeks or even days before the opener[:@]
04-27-2009, 06:16 AM
#4
Banned
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Posts: 2,978
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
"Weaners proposal is a voice of reason where reason was nonexistent a few short months ago. "
Amen, btb. And we all know the reason for that is because 2 of the biggest problems to ever plague our commission are out the door. Pallone and Schleiden. Now maybeat least some of the tangled mess theyvecreated can be straightened out? They have been on the wrong side of just about every vote. I give a big thumbs up to Boop, as I usually agree with his vote, andso far Weiner is getting a big thumbs up as well.
I think it interesting that a few commissioners said the anti sentiment theyve recieved was overwhelming and Schleiden saying otherwise says alot about Schleiden, as either he or the others are lying because they both cannot be right.And Schleidenhas a very poor track record at the commission for honesty.
"We all know that you are a rabid crossbow fan but the bottom line is that the vast majority of thehunters who had a view on this issuehas been negative. Much of the negative response has centered on the concern about impact on existing bow seasons. "
I agree. For it or against it, one should respect the desire of the majority as long as its a social issue rather than biological. If the majority of hunters really wanted it, Id not like it, but could accept. They dont want legalization. Therefore I am 110% against.
"I'm not saying that the crossbow inclusion is a mistake."
If you believe that the majority did not want legalization, then it was definately a mistake. To ignore the desire of the majority of hunters for no good reason only further degrades an eroded pgc/hunter relationship and causes even lower hunter satisfaction. That most definately should count for something.
Amen, btb. And we all know the reason for that is because 2 of the biggest problems to ever plague our commission are out the door. Pallone and Schleiden. Now maybeat least some of the tangled mess theyvecreated can be straightened out? They have been on the wrong side of just about every vote. I give a big thumbs up to Boop, as I usually agree with his vote, andso far Weiner is getting a big thumbs up as well.
I think it interesting that a few commissioners said the anti sentiment theyve recieved was overwhelming and Schleiden saying otherwise says alot about Schleiden, as either he or the others are lying because they both cannot be right.And Schleidenhas a very poor track record at the commission for honesty.
"We all know that you are a rabid crossbow fan but the bottom line is that the vast majority of thehunters who had a view on this issuehas been negative. Much of the negative response has centered on the concern about impact on existing bow seasons. "
I agree. For it or against it, one should respect the desire of the majority as long as its a social issue rather than biological. If the majority of hunters really wanted it, Id not like it, but could accept. They dont want legalization. Therefore I am 110% against.
"I'm not saying that the crossbow inclusion is a mistake."
If you believe that the majority did not want legalization, then it was definately a mistake. To ignore the desire of the majority of hunters for no good reason only further degrades an eroded pgc/hunter relationship and causes even lower hunter satisfaction. That most definately should count for something.
04-27-2009, 08:22 AM
#5
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 297
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
If crossbows are going to be allowed the first two weeks of archery season and, anyone with an muzzleloader license is allowed to use crossbows during the early muzzleloading season, what days are left that crossbows will not be allowed to be used? Are crossbows allowed to be used to take a buck during the early muzzleloading season?
04-27-2009, 09:51 AM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location:
Posts: 282
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
I for one hope they don't change what they already have in place. And I'm sick of hearing all the whining about inclusion. So hunt with you long bow, compound wheelie bow, recurve bow, in-line, flintlock, spear, or whatever floats your boat, but please stop whining about cross-bows. It's sickening and one-sided.
04-27-2009, 10:00 AM
#7
Banned
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RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
Sorry outsider, but we're gonna disagree on this one. Supporting this proposal is no more whining then supporting any other proposal that arises. And ournot wanting inclusion is no more "whining" than your complaining about this proposed change is.
And Id say the proposed change is a compromise which leans VERY heavily toward those for inclusion. Though those against wont be happy with anything less than exclusion, and those for xbows wont be 100% happy unless they get the shortcu....er I mean, inclusion
for the whole season. Considering they werent legal at all previously for everyone in archery, and consideringmost did not want it legalized, they should be happy no matter how long they get.
But im not very optimistic of the outcome. Im betting things stand "as is" anyway.
And Id say the proposed change is a compromise which leans VERY heavily toward those for inclusion. Though those against wont be happy with anything less than exclusion, and those for xbows wont be 100% happy unless they get the shortcu....er I mean, inclusion
for the whole season. Considering they werent legal at all previously for everyone in archery, and consideringmost did not want it legalized, they should be happy no matter how long they get.But im not very optimistic of the outcome. Im betting things stand "as is" anyway.
04-27-2009, 10:37 AM
#8
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
>the potential impact of a new weapon on the harvest. It's what should have been done in the first place
BTB
the x-bow is not a new tool in the deer mangement tool box. They have been included
in 3 WMU's the entire archery season for 5 years. Something like 15% of archery hunters have been able to use one in the other 19 WMU's via a handicap permit as well.
The GC collects harvest information on x-bow deer harvest via report cards.
THe GC has been easing into full x-bow inclusion for a long time.
>It may well prove out that the impact of the crossbow has been overblown
That's where I place my money.
WV Gino
BTB
the x-bow is not a new tool in the deer mangement tool box. They have been included
in 3 WMU's the entire archery season for 5 years. Something like 15% of archery hunters have been able to use one in the other 19 WMU's via a handicap permit as well.
The GC collects harvest information on x-bow deer harvest via report cards.
THe GC has been easing into full x-bow inclusion for a long time.
>It may well prove out that the impact of the crossbow has been overblown
That's where I place my money.
WV Gino
04-27-2009, 10:41 AM
#9
Fork Horn
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location:
Posts: 282
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
One more thing:
If there were 900,000 hunting licenses sold in PA (guesstimate) how manyare for inclusion, how many are against inclusion, how many undecided. Show me actual numbers, don't just say "the majority are against", because the majority of hunters that I talk to are for inclusion. But I know we aren't speaking for all hunters in PA. Show me.
If there were 900,000 hunting licenses sold in PA (guesstimate) how manyare for inclusion, how many are against inclusion, how many undecided. Show me actual numbers, don't just say "the majority are against", because the majority of hunters that I talk to are for inclusion. But I know we aren't speaking for all hunters in PA. Show me.
04-27-2009, 10:44 AM
#10
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
RE: There is hope in PA. Crossbow not quite a done deal!!
> For it or against it, one should respect the desire of the majority as long as its a social issue rather than biological. If the majority of hunters really wanted it, Id not like it, but could accept. They dont want legalization. Therefore I am 110% against.
I very much doubt the majority of archery stamp buyers are against x-bows let alone
the majority of of general license buyers.
I personaly only know of one archery stamp buyer who was upset over x-bow inclusion.
He does not want to see extra guys in the woods when he is hunting. Hehas a UBP sticker on the back of his truck and is also the only archery stamp buyer I know that has been out shopping for an x-bow since the board approved them statewide. Go figure.
WV Gino
I very much doubt the majority of archery stamp buyers are against x-bows let alone
the majority of of general license buyers.
I personaly only know of one archery stamp buyer who was upset over x-bow inclusion.
He does not want to see extra guys in the woods when he is hunting. Hehas a UBP sticker on the back of his truck and is also the only archery stamp buyer I know that has been out shopping for an x-bow since the board approved them statewide. Go figure.
WV Gino