DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Wildlife Management Workshop
Where: Southwest Region: March 14, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. at South Strabane Township Fire Station #2, located at 172 Oak Springs Road, Washington, Washington County. Directions: From I-70, take the Murtland Avenue Exit and go south on Route 19 to the first light. Turn right onto Oak Springs Road, and look for the fire station on the left.


Release #022-09

GAME COMMISSION TO LAUNCH THIRD ROUND OF DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES

HARRISBURG – For the third consecutive year, the Pennsylvania Game Commission is hitting the road to bring deer management open houses to communities throughout the Commonwealth.
Open houses are used by the agency as an interactive public outreach tool that employs multimedia presentations, exhibits and wildlife managers to bring both the nuts-and-bolts and finer details of deer management to hunters, farmers and others whose lives are influenced by deer. The effort emphasizes bringing this powerful communications and educational tool to residents as a means to further the general public’s understanding of deer and deer management. The approach is bolstered by having agency employees on hand to engage participants who attend the open houses.
Open houses provide a means to cover wide-ranging topics through specialized stations set-up in a large hall. Stations are spaced out so participants who have questions and/or comments for station attendants can communicate in a one-on-one exchange without interruptions and with the expectation of getting answers immediately.
“Here’s your chance to interact with a deer biologist, or State Game Land manager, or forester,” explained Game Commission Executive Director Carl G. Roe. “And hopefully, one of the open houses will be close to your home. The goal here is to reach out to Pennsylvanians, both figuratively and literally. We hope that every person who attends an open house can better identify with our deer management program upon leaving.”
Six open houses are currently scheduled to be held in Pennsylvania. They will all have the same presentation: displays manned by agency staff. The displays are:

- Goals that Direct the Deer Program – Outlining the five goals of the deer management program;
- Management Goals are a Product of Public Input – Focuses on the participating stakeholders who were involved in developing the current deer plan goals;
- Where do you hunt? – Helps hunters take a critical look at the characteristics of habitat through visual representation;
- Deer Necessities - Identifies the preferences that guide deer in selecting habitat;
- Habitat Variability – Focuses on how habitat health is rated differently from one Wildlife Management Unit to another;
- Telemetry Study – Sheds light on the dispersal of young male deer;
- Deer Aging – Allows participants to learn how deer are aged through tooth wear; and
- Deer Management DVD - Nonstop presentation of the agency’s recently-produced deer management DVD, free copies of which will be available to open house visitors.
Open houses will be held in six different locations from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. on a Saturday to maximize the opportunity for those interested in attending, and are being held in different locations than the two previous rounds to afford residents in other areas of the state to attend.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Has the attendance improved at these events? There were very few guys at the one I attended. I wasn't at all impressed by the setup, but it did give hunters a chance to have their questions answered by PGC staff, but even Dr. Rosenberry couldn't answer my question regarding the DDs in 2F and 2G.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

I dont know how well attended, this is the first in my County. I will let you know tomorrow evening.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Hop you have a good turn out and if you get a chance see if Dr. Rosenberry has an answer to my question about DDs in 2F and 2G. Thanks.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

We had 30 people show up. We had a Forester, a Deer biologist, a Land Manager, a Regional Biologist, The SW Regional Director, The SW Information and Education Supervisor, and two WCO's on hand to answer questions.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Do they have any plans for one anywhere near Meadville, 1A or1B ?

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Sorry to hear you had such a poor turnout. I guess a lot of guys have heard all they want to hear about the current deer management plan.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

RWJ

Do you have a list or a link to a list of the other open houses?

Never mind. Found it!!!

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=176032

We missed the Northwest one Jim!

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Not quite. As with any event of this nature, no matter the subject, folks who are generally satisfied dont bother much with them. When the majority on any issue is satisfied with the status quo, informational events tend to attract only the diehards on both sides.

Lack of attendance at these things tends to indicate that the casual majority is basically satisfied.

Some guys probably couldn't make it because many taxidermist are finishing up on deer mounts and several hunters had appointments to pick up their deer heads.;)

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

That is a fair job of spinning, but I doubt it has the slightest relation to reality If the PGC agreed with your position they would waste all that manpower and money so 30 people could ask questions.
Now that's funny. The two big PGC supporters didn't even know when the open houses were being held.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

BT ( by the way its funny calling you BT when I called Blue bird BT For so many years ):D I think the Crossbow vote was the last straw in most hunters minds when it comes to the worthless PGC. and given up wasting their time with them.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Or perhaps the money and manpower were expended to help educate those with an interest. Perhaps the money and manpower were expended to dispell the myth about all those angry hunters that the USP claims to represent.

Study after study has shown that people are 7-10 times more likely to attend public meetings when dissatisfied as opposed to attending whan satisfied.

The money and manpower expended and the resulting light turnout will also serve to deflate claims of lack of transparency in the USP lawsuit.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Jeff, Call me BTB not BT.... PLEASE!!!;)

Ithink what you're suggesting. is that guys have given up. I just can't buy that one.

As for the crossbow vote, itwas flat out wrong! I say that even though I am actually nuetral on the weapon itself. What was wrong IMHO was voting it in against a 90% public response against and without the usual caution and "easing in" that good common sense dictates.

If crossbows were the subject, I think attendance would have been standing room only.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Two other factors could have contributed to what BBthinks is aa low turnout. Yesterday was the start of many Delayed Harvest project stockings in the Southwest region. Also I was at the Sportsman's Warehouse near Pittsburgh. They are having a going out of business sale. I heard guys mention the meeting at the store. Two of my buddies where planning to attend the meeting until they heard of the sale.[/align]

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

When I did the sportsmans show here in Washington in Feb and the two people that had crossbow concern yesterday all had the same concern. If and when they could use a scope. I have not had one hunter out of the show ( say 400- 500 people) or any out of the thirty yesterday complain about the inclusion.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

I tend to agree with bluebird. A lot of guys have heard all that they want to here. The PA Game Commissions credibility is circling in the toilet. Has nothing to do with satisfaction.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Could it be everyone knows that it's nothing more than a PR ploy ??? Everyone with a lick of sense knows the PGC,including our beloved RSB,could care less about what the hunters in this state feel and want.They would rather have hunters completely out of everything but with the amount of dissatisfaction out there growing,maybe they feel a little lip service and occasional dog n pony show,they can at least claim they're making an attempt.All that being said,i'm planning on attending this one and save my final comments till after.

"I am becoming more and more convinced that wildlife management would be better off if we worked from the general fund and told hunters to take a flying leap with their money." R.S. Bodenhorn - PA Game Commission WCO of Elk County

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

The open houses are not a meeting with the intend of solving a problem or resolving issues . They are nothing but a public relations ploy that hunters can easily recognize and avoid. They realize attending will change nothing since the PGC has clearly demonstrated they have no intention of considering the hunters concerns.
Everything presented at these events is available on the PGC website including asking questions,that the PGC can't or won't answer.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Nobody walked away without the questions they asked being answered. It might not be the answer they want but the did get an answer.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

That really doesn't mean much and here is an example.

Have ARs increased or decreased the average racks size of 2.5+ buck?

PGC -we don't know if rack sizes increased or decreased.

Why is 2F managed at a higher DD that 2G even though regeneration in 2F is poorer than in 2G?

PGC- I don't know but ,I'll check into it.

Why have statewide breeding rates decreased by 5%?

PGC-We don't use statewide breeding rates to manage the herd so it doesn't matter.

All three questions were answered ,but the questioner only learn the PGC could dodge the questions.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

I was there and no questions were dodged.

Check your PM's

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

"Study after study has shown that people are 7-10 times more likely to attend public meetings when dissatisfied as opposed to attending whan satisfied. "

I dont believe that 7-10 theory applies when the meeting is on the same topic as dozens of others in the last several years where people were ignored.Any objective humanbeing can look at this realistically and see that there have been dozens of "meetings" of various types since the inception of our deer program, and many were packed house with UNSATISFIED people whom gave their voice often enough, when they tought it might matter, BEFORE they were proved that it didnt... How many times do you think they would continue to bang their head against the pgc brick wall YEAR after YEAR after YEAR before either just quietly "stewing" or taking other routes such as continually contacting legislators? Besides this "meeting" wasnt a "public inpuit" gathering. I didnt attend nor did tens of thousands of others, and it wasnt because they/we are "satisfied" with pgc program. With many, its just the exact opposite. And for others, of either side of the debate, manywho WANTED to be educated on the topic already are. I dont see much that was to be discussed that one couldnt have found directly from pgc website.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Bluebird, I cannot believe that is the answers that were recieved for those questions. UNREAL. Who was answering may I ask?

Statewide breeding rates dont matter? Ive never heard something so rediculous in my life after having heard for years how important it was for us to address it!

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Darned if we do and darned if we dont. Some dont have internet and some prefer to get the answers to specific questions instead of reading all the info.

Some groups are throwing stones and lawsuits saying there isnt enough info availible and now I am hearing everything you ever wanted to know is on the website.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

""Darned if we do and darned if we dont. Some dont have internet and some prefer to get the answers to specific questions instead of reading all the info. ""

Rwj, just giving my opinion to some of the guys here who were giving their thoughts on why these things have not been better attended.

""Some groups are throwing stones and lawsuits saying there isnt enough info availible and now I am hearing everything you ever wanted to know is on the website.""

Since youreplied to me,that holds zero water. Im not involved iwth any "group" or any lawsuit. And yes, I read the agenda for the meeting this one as well as previous. Most if not all of those are addressed on the website. And the only questions that some of us had of any substance, which werent previously answered....STILL go dodged and unanswered.

People are justsick of thisdeer plan and see this as anotherattempt at cramming it down our throats. Pgc should take notice. People have given their opinions. Theyve also basically ignored the brainwash habitattours.... SO why on earth would they waste the time and effort AGAIN on something sure to fail?? Id guess just so they could point to legislators andshow that they keep makiing the effort to "reach out", when all they are really reaching out is an open palm for a fee increase.;)

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

You are taking poetic license with what I said. I did not say everything you ever wanted to know was available on the website. I said everything presented at the open house is available on the website including questions and answers.

The PGC is still refusing to release the data on the effects of ARs. They won't release the DD's for each WMU that they use to determine antlerless allocations and they won't release the breeding rates for each WMU.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

How could you possibly know that when there were many different stations and you couldn't have been at all of them at the same time?

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

All the "unanswered questions" I've seen on this forum have been answered over and over ad nauseum either here, on te PGC website or elsewhere but some members simply won't accept those answers or can't comprehend them.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Only questions I have and dont know the answer to, are a few that have no rational answer. They arent addressable by the usual "canned" responses. Such as WHY does 2A have and has had ever since,10 to 15,000 MORE Tags after 2004, when 45,000 tags decreased the herd approx 7% that year according to annual report? Since when does it take 10 to 15000 more tags to stabilize than it does to reduce a larger herd the year before! (LOL)[8D][8D]

Why was the cac structured not as "majority rule" but as only TWO dissenting votes overrule any majority consensus??? (LOL)

Ive got questions...But I have a pretty good idea of the unspoken answers. = Fewer deerno matter what may be claimed or what majority may wish.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

"some members simply won't accept those answers or can't comprehend them. "

Then perhaps you should have attended the Pgc open house.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

The answers to my first two questions were provided by Dr. R. . As you might have guess the answer to the question on breeding rates came from RSB.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Have they now. Then you should know the answers to these questions. Please answer these three questions.

Have ARs increased or decreased the average racks size of 2.5+ buck?

Why is 2F managed at a higher DD that 2G even though regeneration in 2F is poorer than in 2G?

Why have statewide breeding rates decreased by 5%?

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Double talk and BS are not answers . You can't cite any source that explains why we don't have the data on the effects of ARs or why the PGC doesn't report DDs and breeding rates for each WMU. They obviously have the data ,but are refusing to release it.
.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

I considered it but I have no unanswered questions regarding deer management and have no problem getting answers when I do ask.

Now, I'd love an opportunity to ask 4 BOC members about the crossbow vote;)

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

That is because blind followers don't ask meaningful questions. They think if the ask a PGC guy how they are doing today, that is for the a very hard and difficult question to answer. Most don't know enough about the deer plan to ask more difficult questions like which way is the wind blowing today.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

I see you have been studyingdiligently underyour [&:]bird master there grasshopper. Theanswer is neither. The average rack size across the board has increased because the average age of the harvested buck has increased.

RSB provided a detailed answer to that one. If you missed it, click on the search link above and search for it under author RSB. If after reading RSB's detailed answer, you cant understand it, I'm afraid maybe you need more help than can be given by anyone here but we'll do our best.


I'm surprised you missed this stuff. Once again, click the search button above. RSB also explained that one very well. After he explained it, Bluebird was confused and had mistakenly added some "extra ingredients" when he did his math but I cleared that up for him. It should be easy to find and to follow.


I do thank you, however, forproviding a perfect example supporting this statement that I previously made....

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

Any idiot would know that the average rack size of the buck harvested would increase if you make it illegal to harvest smaller buck. but that tells you nothing about whether the average rack size of all 2.5+ buck increased or decreased ,so you are wrong again.

And I proved he was wrong by providing the actual PGC data showing the distribution of the does sampled.

Blind followers can't see the forest for the trees.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

I could take pages and pages to respond but I'll simply swipe a quote from the greatest president this country had inmy lifetimme, Ronald Reagan

There you go again....

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

As I said before, you aren't smart enough to provide a logical defense for your position so you resort to non-sensical answers to divert attention from you lack of knowledge.

RE: DEER MANAGEMENT OPEN HOUSES
 

You silly little boy. You just dodged the questions. Bluebird is right after all. You don't know what you are talking about. At least you haven't demonstrated it to me.

Perhaps you should stick to things you know about. Like posting cartoons,making sly remarks, and making off-color jokes which aren't all that funny.

By the way, your credibility is circling down the toilet too.