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Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

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Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

Old 02-08-2009, 04:40 PM
  #11  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

You will have many different opinions about this subject amongst different deer biologists. Here is a link on how other biologists feel [/align][/align]http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=124[/align]
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:57 PM
  #12  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

hat makes high grading from antler restrictions in those southern states much more likely then would occur from antler restrictions in the northern states where we don’t harvest our bucks until after they have already pretty much completed their short annual breeding cycle
That is absolutely not true and shows that you don't understand the concept of high grading. The initial effects of high grading has nothing to do with when the buck are harvested or when the doe are bred. High grading simply refers to harvesting the best buck in each age class which results in an average smaller rack size in the succeeding age class. Kroll's research supports that theory as does the results from Miss.
When you compare antler restrictions and breeding potential between northern and southern states you are compares apples to pumpkins right from the star
Are you sure you know the difference between apples and pumpkins?

You are correct about what causes high grading but you are also 100% incorrect about the possibility or potential for high grading here in Pennsylvania.

Since Pennsylvania was previously only protecting bucks with antlers less then three inches, before the change to the current antler restrictions, if there was any chance of high grading in this state it already happened a long, long time ago. Now we protect more of our better bucks then what we have EVER protected before, so if anything we have started the steps of reversing the past more significant potential for high grading by only keeping the really short antlered spikes.

In those southern states they would also be much more likely to see degrading of the genetics then would occur in the northern states where harvest our bucks after the rut instead of before.

R.S. Bodenhorn
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:00 PM
  #13  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

Could you post the report, by the PGC, on antler restrictions in PA?
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:07 PM
  #14  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

Since Pennsylvania was previously only protecting bucks with antlers less then three inches, before the change to the current antler restrictions, if there was any chance of high grading in this state it already happened a long, long time ago. Now we protect more of our better bucks then what we have EVER protected before, so if anything we have started the steps of reversing the past more significant potential for high grading by only keeping the really short antlered spikes.
That simply is not true. The 3" spike rule was designed to protect BB from being harvested as antlered deer, and it was not designed to protect 1.5+ buck. We are now harvesting the best of the buck in each age class while protecting those bucks that are inferior for the rate of antler development. That is the very definition of high grading.

Even with the 3" spike rule there was no protected class of deer, BB and inferior 1.5 buck that didn't have 3" spikes were legal as antlerless deer. Now inferior 1.5 buck and inferior 2.5+ buck are protected from being harvested except by juniors and military.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:41 PM
  #15  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Since Pennsylvania was previously only protecting bucks with antlers less then three inches, before the change to the current antler restrictions, if there was any chance of high grading in this state it already happened a long, long time ago. Now we protect more of our better bucks then what we have EVER protected before, so if anything we have started the steps of reversing the past more significant potential for high grading by only keeping the really short antlered spikes.
That simply is not true. The 3" spike rule was designed to protect BB from being harvested as antlered deer, and it was not designed to protect 1.5+ buck. We are now harvesting the best of the buck in each age class while protecting those bucks that are inferior for the rate of antler development. That is the very definition of high grading.

Even with the 3" spike rule there was no protected class of deer, BB and inferior 1.5 buck that didn't have 3" spikes were legal as antlerless deer. Now inferior 1.5 buck and inferior 2.5+ buck are protected from being harvested except by juniors and military.

You are either just full of bologna or once again intentionally misleading people to advance your misguided agenda.

Button bucks don’t even come close to having three inch antlers and the past antler restrictions had nothing to do with protecting button bucks.

Even if they were legal as antler less deer the vast majority of those 1 ½ year old bucks with antlers shorter then three inches were making it through to the next season to become 2 ½ year old bucks. Those short spike bucks of the past were the 2 ½ year old bucks that wouldn’t make today’s antler restrictions that you keep harping about. Therefore it was more a problem of high grading in the past. Now that we keep more of the larger 1 ½ year old bucks, that would have been harvested before the more restrictive antler restrictions, that old high grading concern has been improved upon instead of being made worse.

R.S. Bodenhorn
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:02 PM
  #16  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

Button bucks don’t even come close to having three inch antlers and the past antler restrictions had nothing to do with protecting button bucks.
Here is a clear example of where your inherent bias prevents from thinking rationally. the 3" spike rule was obviously designed to prevent BB from being harvested as an antlered deer and provided a clear distinction between a legal antlered deer and an antlerless deer.
Now that we keep more of the larger 1 ½ year old bucks, that would have been harvested before the more restrictive antler restrictions, that old high grading concern has been improved upon instead of being made worse.
That is an obviously absurd claim with no basis in fact. If you are claiming the 3" spike rule was more restrictive than the present ARs,we would have carried over more 1.5 buck before ARs than we do now. You really need to take a day or two before responding to my posts so you at least have a chance to avoid looking like a blithering idiot.

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Old 02-08-2009, 06:35 PM
  #17  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Button bucks don’t even come close to having three inch antlers and the past antler restrictions had nothing to do with protecting button bucks.
Here is a clear example of where your inherent bias prevents from thinking rationally. the 3" spike rule was obviously designed to prevent BB from being harvested as an antlered deer and provided a clear distinction between a legal antlered deer and an antlerless deer.
Now that we keep more of the larger 1 ½ year old bucks, that would have been harvested before the more restrictive antler restrictions, that old high grading concern has been improved upon instead of being made worse.
That is an obviously absurd claim with no basis in fact. If you are claiming the 3" spike rule was more restrictive than the present ARs,we would have carried over more 1.5 buck before ARs than we do now. You really need to take a day or two before responding to my posts so you at least have a chance to avoid looking like a blithering idiot.

Actually it is just that you need a class in reading comprehension so you can understand what has been written.

Between that and obviously not knowing much about antler development of button bucks (those six month old males) and what the old three inch antler restrictions really protected. What those old restrictions protected were the short antlered 1½ year old bucks. Those 1 ½ year old bucks then became the small racked 2 ½ year old bucks that you talk so poorly of. That was the very example of high grading that you now claim you don’t want to see.

When we made antler restrictions more restrictive, and that is what happened with the current restrictions, we made a huge leap in correcting that old high grading problem.

If you can’t understand that then this entire topic is obviously way to far over your head for you to even be in the same universe as those making wise deer management decisions.

R.S. Bodenhorn
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:07 PM
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

That is what we have allways been told BB. The 3 inch rule was not about AR.
It was about Buttons. Ifthat is BS RSB, Then why was one allowed to shoot that 3 inch or smaller buck as a doe? You are so full of crap and have no clue. People can see you make things up now. It had nothing to do about AR and just a determination for what was considered a buck or doe. You don't know as much as you think you do.
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:10 AM
  #19  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

ORIGINAL: R.S.B.

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

hat makes high grading from antler restrictions in those southern states much more likely then would occur from antler restrictions in the northern states where we don’t harvest our bucks until after they have already pretty much completed their short annual breeding cycle
That is absolutely not true and shows that you don't understand the concept of high grading. The initial effects of high grading has nothing to do with when the buck are harvested or when the doe are bred. High grading simply refers to harvesting the best buck in each age class which results in an average smaller rack size in the succeeding age class. Kroll's research supports that theory as does the results from Miss.
When you compare antler restrictions and breeding potential between northern and southern states you are compares apples to pumpkins right from the star
Are you sure you know the difference between apples and pumpkins?

You are correct about what causes high grading but you are also 100% incorrect about the possibility or potential for high grading here in Pennsylvania.

Since Pennsylvania was previously only protecting bucks with antlers less then three inches, before the change to the current antler restrictions, if there was any chance of high grading in this state it already happened a long, long time ago. Now we protect more of our better bucks then what we have EVER protected before, so if anything we have started the steps of reversing the past more significant potential for high grading by only keeping the really short antlered spikes.

In those southern states they would also be much more likely to see degrading of the genetics then would occur in the northern states where harvest our bucks after the rut instead of before.

R.S. Bodenhorn
RSB, that is a blatant crock of crap, and you know it. Claiming our old three inch spike rule could have caused high grading is nonsense. That rule was designed for two purposes only. To protect BUTTON BUCKS with small but visible spikes, and hunters flinging lead and ground checking does, with the odds of perhaps finding a button protruding above the hairline. High grading among the spikes. Gimme a break.

There is one other very important point that makes all of the difference in the world between southern and northern states and there buck management objectives.

In the northern states we have a narrow breeding and fawn birth period as required by nature due to the timing of spring and winter conditions.
Therefore our deer are bred before our hunting seasons remove the bucks.
In the southern states the deer have a much longer breeding period with most of their does not being bred until after their buck hunting seasons.

That makes high grading from antler restrictions in those southern states much more likely then would occur from antler restrictions in the northern states where we don’t harvest our bucks until after they have already pretty much completed their short annual breeding cycle.

When you compare antler restrictions and breeding potential between northern and southern states you are compares apples to pumpkins right from the start.
Before or after breeding is irrelevant. The best yearlings get ONE chance to breed before they are legal to be harvested. A sub legal, inferior buck will have atleast two seasons to pass on his genes...the first season he was protected, the second season, breeding before gun season takes place, and then possibly even a third season depending on if his spindly spikes have matured enough to make him legal as a 2.5 year old. Even an old fool like you can see how protecting inferior buck for rate of development allows them to pass on 2 or 3 times the amount of genes as the superiorbucks that are legal for harvest as a yearling.Texas' restrictions are a superior method. Period. Allowing those spikes to be harvested and adapting a spread based restriction could only improve the quality of our bucks. Did you even read the link? And why dd you specifically dodge one glaring question in particular...Why did TX buck harvest return to normal after the first year of AR's while our's has still never returned to pre AR numbers, even five years later? Any fool can see that theirs is clearly a superior method, with superior results. Not to mention that they made clear reference to the possibility of high grading and took specific measures to reduce or eliminate its effect, while PA is still in denial.
Button bucks don’t even come close to having three inch antlers and the past antler restrictions had nothing to do with protecting button bucks.
You would think that a career WCO would have seen a few deer in his day. I have a skull at home that I have had for a number of years. It is obviously the skull plate of a six month old button buck...The deer was killed as an antlerless deer, in rich farm country in 5A. The deer weighed approx 85 lbs, and his buttons are two inches long. While I have rarely seen buttons of that length, they do exist, and the old three inch rule would have protected this deer from harvest as a legal buck, not during doe season. Because bucks shorter than three inches were legal for harvest as antlerless deer, your claim of the old system causing high grading is a crock of crap as well. While it certainly allowed for a very high percentage yearling buck harves, there was NO possibility of high grading as NO measure of buck was protected, permitting a diverse buck harvest, based on hunter choice. If the PGC wasn't so closed minded, or actually gave a crap about hunter satisaction, they would see that there are ways to increase the age structure of our bucks, while reducing high grading. Imagine...our bucks could actually BE getting bigger within their respective age classes....not just older, and possibly smaller. Oh yeah....when are they going to release some definitive antler data comparing pre AR antler size to current antler data? Cricket, cricket, cricket.......
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:59 AM
  #20  
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Default RE: Antler Restrictions (What they found in TX)

and i thought the 3 inch rule was more for a line over 3 buck under 3 doe seems rsb old ar thing was crap
because you could shoot it either way must be over my head
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