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A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Listening to a discussion at my local sportsman's club,prompted me to ask this question.[/align]It brought me to remember, years ago. How a representative from both the Pa Fish Comm. & Game Comm. would come[/align]on a quarterly basis to the club. Jim Mehaloc and Don Hyatt.These gentlemen are no longer with us.They would keep us informed[/align]on how things are going within there commission, any up coming changes being proposed and always asking and taking notes on our input. The biggest one the older members remember. When Jim would come down and ask our input on upcoming hunting seasons and bag limits. First there was an open floor discussion. Jim would go on,they want to change this, add that, cut back on this.Explain why, give his views then take our questions. Then we actually had Jim leave the room, took our vote. Called Jim back into the room and presented him a copy of our vote and signed by our club officials. Then Jim would take our vote and if any suggestions back to his supervisor. There is no doubt, the biggest negative you hear, the PGC is not listening to us or don't care about us. I'm new on this forum, but in this short time. I've seen some very intelligent,level headed people present and back there comments. BTB,Doug,bowtruck and others. Can this be done? I also hope to hear from RSB.[/align][/align] Thanks guys[/align]
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
The only thing you will hear from them is with out a license increase they can't afford to listen to us.
 I'm sorry ,I just had to say that.;) I'm sure theres a better reason some where, maybe we could cut the pheasant program to get the cash. Oh wait we already did that.  |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Ifthey would make Xbows legal they will have some extra cash from selling more archery stamps. [:-]
But most hunters are against Xbowsso thatprobably won't happen. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: bawanajim Ifthey would make Xbows legal they will have some extra cash from selling more archery stamps. [:-] But most hunters are against Xbowsso thatprobably won't happen.
DCNR runs the PGC. new OPEN RECORD LAW that went in effect on jan1st has the USP smiling from ear to ear. you can read about new law by GOGGLE it ,PA OPEN RECORD LAW.;) |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Force them to spend 4 months with me on deer stand in gamelands 52 and see the same3 deer . Lets see how rewarding that feels to them.
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: bawanajim The only thing you will hear from them is with out a license increase they can't afford to listen to us. I'm sorry ,I just had to say that.;) I'm sure theres a better reason some where, maybe we could cut the pheasant program to get the cash. Oh wait we already did that.
I HAPPEN TOO KNOW DIFFFERENCE on what it cost of a vehicle. the PGC could save millions if they would only go to smaller vehicle. same with DCNR,rangers with 1 person riding around in suburban vehicles that get 12 miles per gallon with air conditioning on. then, you see 5 DCNR employees go to same meeting area and all drive different vehicle with 1 person in it. then, drive it home maybe 40 miles,thats 80 miles round trip 5 days a week. just think of gas that would be saved. there is 50% difference in cost of tires/repairs from full size truck or suburban to a blazer,blazer gets up to 22 mpg. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: cardeeer Force them to spend 4 months with me on deer stand in gamelands 52 and see the same3 deer . Lets see how rewarding that feels to them. sgl252 is best habitat you will ever see, PGC does a great job there but few deer, squirreals or rabbits few grouse and only stocked pheasants. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
blkpwdr,Good post.The problem is,most sportsmen are not educated enough on the issues to have solid input.Most hunters want more deer but they don't understand how deer impact the habitat.Most hunters expect the PGC to fix the habitat but they don't understand what they do and what it takes to do it.It's easy to sit back and say what needs to be done.It's another thing to know what it takes to actually do it.
I've been to alot of informative seminars and habitat tours hosted by the PGC,DCNR,PSU and the US forest service.I've done pellet counts,population analysis studies and browse impact studies along side many of these professionals.These things are all open to the public and they're very informative.Funny thing is,99% of the people that show are guys that just want to learn.Very seldom does a naysayer every show up.It's too bad because eventually you come to realize that these guys really do care and they are trying to do what's best for the future of hunting.Education is the key.Unfortuantely,those most opposed to the PGC really don't care tolearn.All you have to do is listen to some of the off the wall posts on these message boards.One admistartor on another board slams the PGC at every opportunity.He was stated that he didn't care happened to the habitat as long as he saw enough deer running through the open timber to keep him excited.Yep,the PGC should really listen to someone with that mentality.Funny thing is,I heard his family had a pretty good year killing doe this year,something he strongly opposes.Although,his sentiments are scary,many feel the way he does.those are the one's crying the loudest. I've went to enough hearings and meeting about the deer to understand what most hunters want.Most want alot of deer at any cost.I sat through the Legislative hearing two years ago in Dubois,sponsored by Hanna and Surra.We had many sportsman and politicians complaining that they don't see 60 deer a day anymore.I saw sportsmen stand up and say they should sell game lands and take pay cuts before there was a lisence increase.I saw hunters complain that they cut too much timber.I heard hunters complain that they didn't cut enough.I heard hunters complain about DCNR spraying beech brush.I heard the complaints about coyote and mountain lion stocking.This year we have a sportmen's group sueing the PGC.Theirconsultant said we'd be down to 50000 deer by this year.They represented a crazy Amish guy thatformed an elaborate hoach about being attacked by a mountain lions.three years ago at another save the deer meeting,I heard a guy threaten to burn down a taxidermists house because he supported the PGC.This crap all makes me embarrased to call myslef a hunter at times.It's no wonder the PGC doesn't listen all the time. Cardeer,OK you spend 4 moths on SGL 52.B.S as usual. Sproulman,I've owned blazers,half ton pu's and 3/4 ton pu's.My half ton's got better gas mileage than the blazers and the repair costs were no where near as bad.Too bad the PGC doesn't listen to you.You'd be a real savior. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Doug, I've heard the same crazy stuff ,it seems the nuts get all of the press,there really doesn't seem to be any middle ground on either side. But thats what keeps us coming back.;) I too have been to meetings I have volunteered my time and my land for any studies they want to do,so far no takers. When they changed from a dpsm number to a variable with no set goals thats when I really became concerned. I see no stopping point in the doe killings until there just plain aren't hunt able numbers. In my area 1B habitat is perfect we have cars hitting deer but as long as we have both cars and deer thats going to happen.The insurance report was in the last PA news ,I'm sure you've read it. So just when is enough ,really enough? Is there a time figure or a number figure when we have reduced the herd enough? |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: DougE blkpwdr,Good post.The problem is,most sportsmen are not educated enough on the issues to have solid input.Most hunters want more deer but they don't understand how deer impact the habitat. But here is a challenge for you. Explain why 2F is being managed at 22 DPSM and 2G is managed at 12 PS DPSM when the forest health is poorer in 2F than in 2G based on regeneration? What PGC criteria justifies that descrepency? |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
I've been active in the same sportsmens' club for the past 25 years. Other than when WCOs were in short supply (like now), we've always had WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings, putting on programs and generally staying in touch. None have ever shied away from answering questions or dealing with disgruntledhunters.
Yep, there were disgruntledhunters 20 years ago, long before that and long beforeHR begain. Back in the80s, Ted Gotshall(?) from the PGC, used to come out and explain how they arrived at antlerless allocations; estimated deer kills and anything else someone in the audience demanded an explanation for relative to deer. He'd bring worksheets with their figures, explain things for the thickest gourd in the room and once stayed far beyond his alloted time. He told me when he got there, that he had to leave for another county by a certain time that night, for an appearance the next morning. When I pointed out that he was already past his "quitting time", he said I ain't leaving here until everyone in the room understands. ;O) Right now our WCO is on active duty in Iraq(again) with the USMC. While he's been gone, one of our former WCOs now at HQ, has come out several times to speak or listen. Have also had Jerry Feaser out, several wildlifebiologists and others. We also get some attention from our local legislators, with personal appearances and communications. Guess we're just luckier than others, being fairly close to Harrisburg? Perhaps if they weren't on such a short fiscal leash, they could send out more people? On the other hand, few at our club ever accuse them of being handled by DCNR, or all beinga bunch of idiots. And yep, we have"ain't no deer anymore" members, too. Most of them just know how to behave in a civil manner. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
You'd have to ask theBiologists at the PGC.Show me where they said those numbers are any type of long term plan.My guess is that they just decided to stabilize where they happened to be at the present time.
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: DougE You'd have to ask theBiologists at the PGC.Show me where they said those numbers are any type of long term plan.My guess is that they just decided to stabilize where they happened to be at the present time. Maybe RSB can fly in to try and save you as you did him. That was a lousy defend I have to say on your part. It showed your true colors also Douge. You are all for the PGC and DCNR and someday would like to be a player for them. So I don't think anyone can trust your answers as being truth. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
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But here is a challenge for you. Explain why 2F is being managed at 22 DPSM and 2G is managed at 12 PS DPSM when the forest health is poorer in 2F than in 2G based on regeneration? What PGC criteria justifies that descrepency? |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
I practically begged and pleaded with our GW's to come into our shop and talk with hunters. No deal- they were afraid of physical violence. Hmmm , they have a point !!!
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
DougE & DennyF, these are the answers I was hoping to hear. Doug, you stated huntersare not educated enough. Denny,you stated just as I did, we've always had WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings, putting on programs and generally staying in touch. Could this bethe solution? Getting more WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings?[/align]
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: blkpowder DougE & DennyF, these are the answers I was hoping to hear. Doug, you stated huntersare not educated enough. Denny,you stated just as I did, we've always had WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings, putting on programs and generally staying in touch. Could this be the solution? Getting more WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings?[/align] |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Might be a good idea if the PGC told the WCO,s to stop bashing hunters on public forums, that could be a good starter. ;)
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
The problem is just as Doug UNINTENTIONALLY pointed out. The people with HIS attitude currently running the gameless commission. To them, the hunters are idiots and know nothing. They expect the hunter to accept extremes and no room for compromise when there is PLENTY on many issues. I'll said 1000 times that PA is at the very bottom in the nation as far as current hunter satisfaction. There are states where the satisfaction has been found to be extremely high. There is absolutely no excuse for us to be the polar opposite, and idiot pgc supporters and pgc themselvescan blame the stupid greedy hunters of Pa all they like, thats not gonna solve one thing. In fact, the passing their own blame onto the hunters only adds to the disgust.
Unfortunately for pgc, more hunters are smarter than they give credit for. Smart enough to know the deal for what it is. Of course Pgc and its clown crew know this, but its much more advantageous for them to attempt to totally discredit any opposition. Wanna fix it? Not gonna happen until the ecoextremists get out of wildlife management in our agency. Idiot extremists tried taking over the direction of management from hunters years ago (EVEN SHORTLY AFTER DEER WERE REINTRODUCED!!!!) saying deer were decimating the state and doom was emanent and the ecosystem on deaths doorway. Those well known heros of the "antideer conservationists" today, the bozo arse-clowns like Latham etc. got THROWN OUT by the hunters who were in the majority at the time and many decades later, the DOOM never came about. Well guess what fellas. The clowns are back, and not only that, they are in CONTROL. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
I will have to see about the new PR blitz about the new and improved PAGC before i would even attempt to reconcile w/ them. I remember being excited when a game protector showed up in the field. He always treated my Dad and us kids w/ respect and had a good tip for us. I never minded showing my license to them. Not anymore, I stay in the woods on my property and away from roads. They have turned sportsman off by police tatctics and general attitude toward the people that provide a pay check to them. You think your clubs and screaming and hollering mean a thing to someone NOTelected into a position?? C'mon??These guys are a direct handful of picked reperesentatives who have played ball w/ the elected glitterati! This police state attacks they have used and are using is terrible and i beleive irreversible for the general hunting public guys that get out a couple times a year. When you can't get treated decently by the Game Police, you just quit exposing yourself to the harassment.
I do not have as yet have a major deer problem in 2D. We are proacticve in maintaining herds on our grounds. I do not depend on the PAGC to help us work our deer. Protect our deer. We have instituted our own QDM. We have posted 1,000's of acres and it keeps expanding everytime the PAGC shows up and harasses a land owner or his family. We cannot leagally keep them out, but they know for sure they are not welcome, ever! We quit bitching and took care of ourselves, educated ourselves and are keeping all types of the wildlife healthy in our grounds. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Wanna fix it? Smaller wmus. Put deer where they can be via the allocation. Cut slightly more on the gamelands. Speak WELL of the hunters who SHOULD BE pgcs ally. Quit solely catering to everyone else but hunters. Take open to anyone polls on issues of at least some significance. Give herd estimates like all other "Normal" states, then wouldnt appear so much to the average joes that pgc has so much to hide by notgiving it.Have COMPLETE transparency.
These things would ALL help, ALL would help with pr, Nearly everyone would want to see these provisions (except maybe ecoextremists)NONE are unreasonable and there is NO reason that they cannot be done, and these things SHOULD be common sense. No extremes like the complete anti-deer idiots. And still middle ground not asking for 1.6+ million deer. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Althoughi don't hunt PA anymore i find these PA posts interesting.
DougE, I liked your first post. As usual you know what you are talking about. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Some good points buckhunter one. Only things I might add are that there are many wcos who are good guys that treat people with respect and arent cowboys. though there are enough of those for sure. Also not all wcos play armchair biologist and preach to hunters how stupid they are on the internet.
Congrats on your situation. Sounds like a great deal you have going with all that hunting ground. Unfortunately that will never be the case with the majority of the states sportsmen. The state is in some desparate need of solutions. But the only one pgc cares and whines about constantly is more money. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: Big John I practically begged and pleaded with our GW's to come into our shop and talk with hunters. No deal- they were afraid of physical violence. Hmmm , they have a point !!! |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: blkpowder DougE & DennyF, these are the answers I was hoping to hear. Doug, you stated huntersare not educated enough. Denny,you stated just as I did, we've always had WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings, putting on programs and generally staying in touch. Could this bethe solution? Getting more WCOs and other PGC staff out for regular meetings? [/align] |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: Buck Hunter 1 I will have to see about the new PR blitz about the new and improved PAGC before i would even attempt to reconcile w/ them. I remember being excited when a game protector showed up in the field. He always treated my Dad and us kids w/ respect and had a good tip for us. I never minded showing my license to them. Not anymore, I stay in the woods on my property and away from roads. They have turned sportsman off by police tatctics and general attitude toward the people that provide a pay check to them. You think your clubs and screaming and hollering mean a thing to someone NOTelected into a position?? C'mon??These guys are a direct handful of picked reperesentatives who have played ball w/ the elected glitterati! This police state attacks they have used and are using is terrible and i beleive irreversible for the general hunting public guys that get out a couple times a year. When you can't get treated decently by the Game Police, you just quit exposing yourself to the harassment. I do not have as yet have a major deer problem in 2D. We are proacticve in maintaining herds on our grounds. I do not depend on the PAGC to help us work our deer. Protect our deer. We have instituted our own QDM. We have posted 1,000's of acres and it keeps expanding everytime the PAGC shows up and harasses a land owner or his family. We cannot leagally keep them out, but they know for sure they are not welcome, ever! We quit bitching and took care of ourselves, educated ourselves and are keeping all types of the wildlife healthy in our grounds. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
WCOR.W.J I honestly don't know why we haven't a rep come in for quit awhile. But I will ask the club officials. I would Like them to get more proactive again. May I ask how or who to ask for?[/align]
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
R.W.J, I forgot to mention I am from the SW.
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
call 724-239-9523 and tell the dispatcher where the club is located and you would like a program. The WCO will call back and se up a date. What County are you in?
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Call your regional office and ask for a program at your sportsmans club. Its that easy and the WCO will get back to you and set a date. I visit any and all clubs that invite me. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
i am lucky i have not seen a wco in 3c in years infact i dont even know who the wco is around here
anymore downside is poaching but for me a better relationship with pgc if they would atleast explain why how for how long they have to do things and atleast listen to the hunters |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Call your regional office and ask for a program at your sportsmans club. Its that easy and the WCO will get back to you and set a date. I visit any and all clubs that invite me. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
R.W.J, The club is only about 15 miles from the office.
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: blkpowder R.W.J, The club is only about 15 miles from the office. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
Yeah I just might need it? But I hope not!
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: blkpowder Yeah I just might need it? But I hope not! |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
The WCO is not there representing himself he is representing the Commission. However there are many types of programs availible. The best types are open fourm, let the Sportsmen ask what they want on any subject and If I dont know the answer I take thier name and number and call them back after I research it. |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
R.W.J I didn't mean it that way either! That was towards the newer membership of our club.
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RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: DougE blkpwdr,Good post.The problem is,most sportsmen are not educated enough on the issues to have solid input.Most hunters want more deer but they don't understand how deer impact the habitat.Most hunters expect the PGC to fix the habitat but they don't understand what they do and what it takes to do it.It's easy to sit back and say what needs to be done.It's another thing to know what it takes to actually do it. I've been to alot of informative seminars and habitat tours hosted by the PGC,DCNR,PSU and the US forest service.I've done pellet counts,population analysis studies and browse impact studies along side many of these professionals.These things are all open to the public and they're very informative.Funny thing is,99% of the people that show are guys that just want to learn.Very seldom does a naysayer every show up.It's too bad because eventually you come to realize that these guys really do care and they are trying to do what's best for the future of hunting.Education is the key.Unfortuantely,those most opposed to the PGC really don't care tolearn.All you have to do is listen to some of the off the wall posts on these message boards.One admistartor on another board slams the PGC at every opportunity.He was stated that he didn't care happened to the habitat as long as he saw enough deer running through the open timber to keep him excited.Yep,the PGC should really listen to someone with that mentality.Funny thing is,I heard his family had a pretty good year killing doe this year,something he strongly opposes.Although,his sentiments are scary,many feel the way he does.those are the one's crying the loudest. I've went to enough hearings and meeting about the deer to understand what most hunters want.Most want alot of deer at any cost.I sat through the Legislative hearing two years ago in Dubois,sponsored by Hanna and Surra.We had many sportsman and politicians complaining that they don't see 60 deer a day anymore.I saw sportsmen stand up and say they should sell game lands and take pay cuts before there was a lisence increase.I saw hunters complain that they cut too much timber.I heard hunters complain that they didn't cut enough.I heard hunters complain about DCNR spraying beech brush.I heard the complaints about coyote and mountain lion stocking.This year we have a sportmen's group sueing the PGC.Theirconsultant said we'd be down to 50000 deer by this year.They represented a crazy Amish guy thatformed an elaborate hoach about being attacked by a mountain lions.three years ago at another save the deer meeting,I heard a guy threaten to burn down a taxidermists house because he supported the PGC.This crap all makes me embarrased to call myslef a hunter at times.It's no wonder the PGC doesn't listen all the time. Cardeer,OK you spend 4 moths on SGL 52.B.S as usual. Sproulman,I've owned blazers,half ton pu's and 3/4 ton pu's.My half ton's got better gas mileage than the blazers and the repair costs were no where near as bad.Too bad the PGC doesn't listen to you.You'd be a real savior. he is same one that fills his freezer, like you ,ole buddy and always sees deer.he was former DCNR employee too:) only problem is, he was after a big job with elk group and he did not get it.........:D so, he walked the talk.;) now, i did a 2 year study on vehicles, yes DOUGE, sproul backs up his facts.study was done on full size vehicles vrs smaller size. we checked repairs,tires, insp,gas,costs new on and on. this was done and called a QUALITY CONTROL COMMITTEE, almost sounds like a group you belong too in forest ;) we showed and demonstrated info we had . we showed millions of dollars in saving to company on buying and using smaller fuel vehicles company wide. we had info you would not believe. we did FIELD checks, like you and interviews with over 40 vendors/repair facilitiesand over 73 operators of vehicles. this took us 2 years and we went to philadelphia to present it. DOUGE, we even had insurance figures comparison, never know, maybe you were in comments on insurance :D so, respectfully, again youy are WRONG on vehicle saving .;) |
RE: A better relationship with our PGC? How?
ORIGINAL: lost horn Might be a good idea if the PGC told the WCO,s to stop bashing hunters on public forums, that could be a good starter. ;) but here, i think RSB and RWJ have been decent and we would lose a lot if they did not come on here. we have to have them give their side , right or wrong. i get called a KNOTHEAD by RSB a few times, but it dont bother me because they do have info i can learn from as much as bluebirds and others info. this is best forum in u.s.a. i even had JIM SHOCKEY tell me that, thats something. at least we all hear BOTH sides here and no one is sucking up to PGC/DCNR like over on HPA forum. |
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