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what is considered a bad winter for deer?
and when was the last one we had here? and how long can a deer live without food? does the pgc take this into consideration at all? or just does as dcnr tell them to?
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
i would consider DEATH to be a bad winter ~ ouch!:D
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
yea,that would be. the pgc says reduce deer herd so they have food in case of really bad winters. if we get a winter with 3 feet of snow it is not going to matter about the food source cause it is under the snow anyway. they are not going to get to the food source any way. i don't see how they can factor this into deer numbers that an area can support from a bad winter. its bs.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Wow,some of you are out of touch with reality.Deer need browse during the winter.In fact,they need around 5 lbs a day.Their winterfood sources arenot covered by snow.
yes the PGC takes this into consideration.If the habitat is poor(ie. no browse)less deer can be overwinterd inthat area.therefore,the herd needs reduced more.the worst thing you can doduring the years following bad winters and winter mortality is to add more deer to the habitat.If you're losing deer during winter,it's because you didn't kill enough to begin with. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: DougE Wow,some of you are out of touch with reality.Deer need browse during the winter.In fact,they need around 5 lbs a day.Their winterfood sources arenot covered by snow. yes the PGC takes this into consideration.If the habitat is poor(ie. no browse)less deer can be overwinterd inthat area.therefore,the herd needs reduced more.the worst thing you can doduring the years following bad winters and winter mortality is to add more deer to the habitat.If you're losing deer during winter,it's because you didn't kill enough to begin with. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Deer don't have to die in large numbers but they do die.Look it up in the PGC annual reports.They have the results of the winter mortality in most of them.So in other words,you feel the population should be allowed to expand until they start starving to death?Brilliant
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Bad whether for deer is 3 or 4 ft. of snow for an extended period or a foot of snow with a heavy crust that prevents deer from moving to access the available browse.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
That is true but there has to be available browse,which many areas lack.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
And most areas that lack browse are stands of pole timber where no one should expect to see any browse.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Wrong.Most areas around here are areas that have been devistated by too many deer.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Are you claiming you don't have a significant percentage of pole timber, or are you claiming pole timber should have significant browse available?
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Here we have had our share of bad winters.. Although I can not speak alot of what you folks have for issues in PA. I can say here as well as most places deer yard up to survive the winter months. They will have a network of trails to move around in. They will find food when time is needed. When we have snow that has crusted over with hail or ice the deer willsuffer greatly. The predators such as coyotes and bobcats can get the jump on them. As the deer try to run threw the crusted snow it cuts them on the leggs. While the predators run on top of this stuff making it easier to catch healthy deer and not just the sick ones some choose to believe. As most on here know deer are at it worst time during the winter months and last year was a very hard time for them up here in parts of this state. After all we had record snowfalls on most of the state. But it was a fluffy snow and coyote numbers dropped. They couldn't get around in that either. Alot of deer did make it threw the winter months but didn't have a good fawn production in the spring so this is another area that should be concidered when think how hard the winter months can be.. That's my 2 cents on this subject..
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I'm simply claiming that where there should be sufficient browse,there isn't and that's because the deer ate it.If there isn't browse,we certainly shouldn't be expecting many deer or do you disagree with that?
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I'm simply claiming that where there should be sufficient browse,there isn't and that's because the deer ate it. Should there be as much browse in pole timber as there is in a clear cut? |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
deer are also smart they find food and adapt i have pictures of them in my feed buck
eating cornlage and haylage i think a bad winter would be ice covering ground and trees branches bushes |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: pencil and when was the last one we had here? and how long can a deer live without food? does the pgc take this into consideration at all? or just does as dcnr tell them to? |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I don't believe it is as much food or temp as it is ability to move. Hard crust on deep snow is a killer due to immobilization and subsequent predation. Deer also can go long periods with limited food provided they aren't exhausting their reserves by running and evading predators. I have seen deer stand in the same spot for days during ice events on the hillside across from my office. They simply stand there and conserve energy. If something harasses them they get depleted quickly. Ever hear that you shouldn't bother deer when they are yarding?
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
You could have provided some useful information , but like RSB you chose to alienate another PA hunter. The simple fact is that the herd should not be managed based on the extremes in our winter weather. No one could predict the ice storm that decimated the population in several NC counties in the late 70's.. Those deer didn't die due to lack of browse , they died because they couldn't get to the browse. The same is true when there is 3 or 4 ft. of snow cover. It is not that there isn't enough food for the deer, it is that the deer can not access that food.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I agree Greg. Conditions that make it hard, dangerous or deadlyfor them to move around are the most devastating. When the deer cant get to food or escape predators, it's pretty much over in short order.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: DougE Wow,some of you are out of touch with reality.Deer need browse during the winter.In fact,they need around 5 lbs a day.Their winterfood sources arenot covered by snow. yes the PGC takes this into consideration.If the habitat is poor(ie. no browse)less deer can be overwinterd inthat area.therefore,the herd needs reduced more.the worst thing you can doduring the years following bad winters and winter mortality is to add more deer to the habitat.If you're losing deer during winter,it's because you didn't kill enough to begin with. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter I agree Greg. Conditions that make it hard, dangerous or deadlyfor them to move around are the most devastating. When the deer cant get to food or escape predators, it's pretty much over in short order. only threat to a deer isHARD ICE with no snow on it. that only happened 1 time in early 70s in CLINTON COUNTY.;) |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: Phil from Maine Here we have had our share of bad winters.. Although I can not speak alot of what you folks have for issues in PA. I can say here as well as most places deer yard up to survive the winter months. They will have a network of trails to move around in. They will find food when time is needed. When we have snow that has crusted over with hail or ice the deer willsuffer greatly. The predators such as coyotes and bobcats can get the jump on them. As the deer try to run threw the crusted snow it cuts them on the leggs. While the predators run on top of this stuff making it easier to catch healthy deer and not just the sick ones some choose to believe. As most on here know deer are at it worst time during the winter months and last year was a very hard time for them up here in parts of this state. After all we had record snowfalls on most of the state. But it was a fluffy snow and coyote numbers dropped. They couldn't get around in that either. Alot of deer did make it threw the winter months but didn't have a good fawn production in the spring so this is another area that should be concidered when think how hard the winter months can be.. That's my 2 cents on this subject.. this is why with winter this year in WMU2G,PGC should close the doe hunting next year do to coyote kills .;) |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 You could have provided some useful information , but like RSB you chose to alienate another PA hunter. The simple fact is that the herd should not be managed based on the extremes in our winter weather. No one could predict the ice storm that decimated the population in several NC counties in the late 70's.. Those deer didn't die due to lack of browse , they died because they couldn't get to the browse. The same is true when there is 3 or 4 ft. of snow cover. It is not that there isn't enough food for the deer, it is that the deer can not access that food. we killed over 78 deer in ice storm of around 1977 in about a 15 mile area,all had BROKEN BACKS. they slid down the steep sidehills . for 47 years i never saw deer starve. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
instead of decreasing the herd one would think you would increase the herd to have more of a survival rate during harsh winters. it is not the food it is the movement and ability to get to the food and not as much as not enough food.
So the harsh winters and not enough browse is bogus for a reason of the deer slaughter. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I've seen quite a few deer starve Sproul.I even have a picture of one on my desk right now.My buddy found it dead last year near his house.In 2005,I found over a dozen that starved to death in less than a 1/2 mile.That same spring,while doing a deer density analysis with PSU,we found 5 winter-killed deer in a 76 acre patch.Deer do starve in Pa and the fact that you never saw one proves nothing.You haven'tseen a deer all hunting season but they're obviously out there.
On top of deer starving,which isn'ta huge factor in most years,fawn recruitment also goes way down.Once a doe loses 20-25% of her body weight,the chance of her fawms surviving is very slim. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Like I said,hunters are clueless.Why would you want to add more deer tohabityat that can't maintain a healthy herd?People wonder why the PGC won't listen to hunters.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
A bad winter for the deer this year was the two week snow cover in our area.Made for real easy kills and they hammered the deer.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: DougE I've seen quite a few deer starve Sproul.I even have a picture of one on my desk right now.My buddy found it dead last year near his house.In 2005,I found over a dozen that starved to death in less than a 1/2 mile.That same spring,while doing a deer density analysis with PSU,we found 5 winter-killed deer in a 76 acre patch.Deer do starve in Pa and the fact that you never saw one proves nothing.You haven'tseen a deer all hunting season but they're obviously out there. On top of deer starving,which isn'ta huge factor in most years,fawn recruitment also goes way down.Once a doe loses 20-25% of her body weight,the chance of her fawms surviving is very slim. next time, get PICTURE of all these STARVED DEER for us. i bet it will be as elusive as getting a COUGAR print which i am still waiting for.;) |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: germain A bad winter for the deer this year was the two week snow cover in our area.Made for real easy kills and they hammered the deer. we had snow but our deer kill was down in clinton DO TO LACK OF DOE. i heard as of yesterday about 26 bucks killed for 3 months in western clinton county. many camps never saw deer, 1 camp had 4 bucks from oct to end of deer gun season. they usually have around 8 or 9 bucks for 16 hunters for 3 months of hunting . they saw about 11 doe for 3 months.they hunt in good area too, HYNER ,PA.STEEP, VAST, RUGGED ,REMOTE MOUNTAINS,that use to kill me when goose would say that when he wanted everyone to think there are deer, well, i heard gooses camp only got 1 deer .:) |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Sproul - we're going to have to get together one of these days when I go up to our family's camp along Hyner Run.
We're close to the Hyner-Abes Fork split. You know the area - where the DCNR is handing out DMAP coupons to kill all the doe??. My friend and I each got one and they are setting on my reloading bench waiting for the season to end sowe can report 'no kill'. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: bronko22000 Sproul - we're going to have to get together one of these days when I go up to our family's camp along Hyner Run. We're close to the Hyner-Abes Fork split. You know the area - where the DCNR is handing out DMAP coupons to kill all the doe??. My friend and I each got one and they are setting on my reloading bench waiting for the season to end sowe can report 'no kill'. i had friends that chased a buck, big one near your area 2 years ago, they chased that buck to rt44 pike,there someone driving up road shot it. that buck went a long way to escape them. i heard A LOT of shooting in robinson run areafirst week, i figured it must have been DMAP tags being used,most likely the scrimshaw gang or PRIVATE land owners there. did you know that some are using those DMAP tags on privateland OUTSIDE the DMAP areas. some always find a way around law.[:@] but that was only shooting i heard around that area,it seemed to be very spotty . there is camp along the river road at bridge in hyner. they have their roster on door, i know them, they hunt hard and only bucks in hyner area, they got 4 bucks and saw 11 doe for 3 months of hunting. a friend of mine is raising deer under hyner bridge, he has 10 doe and 1 buck there, he is having terrible time keeping them alive, hunters see BACKROASTS all time.:) |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I would say the last bad winter in our area was 1996, our winters haven't been anything to really reduce the deer population. Last year's Blue Tongue Disease put a hurting on them. I know we lost 5 in just our hollow to it and our buddy found 35 dead ones on his and lost 3 cows.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: WestVirginiaBrent I would say the last bad winter in our area was 1996, our winters haven't been anything to really reduce the deer population. Last year's Blue Tongue Disease put a hurting on them. I know we lost 5 in just our hollow to it and our buddy found 35 dead ones on his and lost 3 cows. you need to get ahold of game commission and get season CLOSED over there if doe are dying.:) |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Sproul,I have a picture.Shoot me your address and I'll send one to you.
We did get a hold of the game commission to take care of the problem.They gave us 600 dmap coupons to fix the problem. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: DougE Like I said,hunters are clueless.Why would you want to add more deer to habityat that can't maintain a healthy herd?People wonder why the PGC won't listen to hunters. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
I agree bb...At least that is what "the science" we hear about so much says.;)
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: WestVirginiaBrent I would say the last bad winter in our area was 1996, our winters haven't been anything to really reduce the deer population. Last year's Blue Tongue Disease put a hurting on them. I know we lost 5 in just our hollow to it and our buddy found 35 dead ones on his and lost 3 cows. you need to get ahold of game commission and get season CLOSED over there if doe are dying.:) I'm going to start putting the Pennsylvania deer epidemic situation into the Global Warming catagory..........lol. :D |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
They wont have a hard winter if the hunters would put back in to the system what they take from. Open your pockets and put 1 200 lb digital feeder for every10 acres. Use corn mixed with deer pellets at a rate of7 lbs per feeder per day. Thats what most people I hunt with do all year , bad or good weather.
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RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
ORIGINAL: cardeeer They wont have a hard winter if the hunters would put back in to the system what they take from. Open your pockets and put 1 200 lb digital feeder for every10 acres. Use corn mixed with deer pellets at a rate of7 lbs per feeder per day. Thats what most people I hunt with do all year , bad or good weather. |
RE: what is considered a bad winter for deer?
Yes there are pros and cons. Many outffiter operations do it all over North America from Texas to Canada do it. Your from WV you know all the feeders that are all over the place. I honestly have not seen all the deer gather at just one feeder all the time. But Yes it is a concern. But then again they are just as dead if they starve to death. I am going threw 1000 lbs a month since october.I will slow it down once the vegetation comes back, Then plant sweet corn, some grains,turnips, clover and etc. OH and I put 30 pounds of liquid molasses out for the first time this year. They went crazy container licked spotless. All gone in three weeks. They were even rolling in the molasses I put on the ground.
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