RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Funny, I seem to remember that as being part of what the much maligned Dr Alt promised. It's also whats made the majority of hunters happy with the current management plan.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

But it has nothing to do with the health of the herd as defined by the PGC and that was the issue that was being discussed.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

You mentioned herd health, I pointed out some valid herd health indicators. Why don't we allowthe other members to decide what is relevant.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Bob, I'll take: "all would be relevant", for $200 [8D]

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Bluebird really thinks he is a rock star. Karaoke anyone??:D:D

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Everyone is free to decide for themselves if what you observed is relevant. But larger racks and the bigger body size of the bucks harvested is more a function of the fact that smaller bucks with smaller racks are protected , rather than due to an improvement in herd health.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

All I know is that my hunting is by far and away the best its ever been, and 10 times better than I ever thought possible here in PA. To go from seeing a true big buck, once every few years to seeing a couple of them each season is amazing.

And I’m not talking about in season sightings where bb2 would spin it that I was just getting better as a hunter, I’m talking about riding around the same spotlighting loop for the past 22 years. Back in the day we’d spot 2-3x a week and like I said see maybe 1-2 decent bucks each year and a true big buck once every 2-3 years. Now we see decent 2 yr olds on a regular basis, and there are a few monsters around each year and I get out spotting maybe ¼ of the times I used too.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Hey, have you noticed the ribbons of fat in the belly lately when you gut a deer.
Do you notice that the deer look plump lately?
I always check out other deer at my butcher's place.
There are some real hogs lately, and not just the bucks either.
Relevant?

Will get spun as unhealthy probably, because the PA deer are now overweight and will all need Jenny Craig. [8D]

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Can you explain why the increased weights you have observed haven't translated into higher breeding rates of fawns and higher productivity of adult doe?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Another DILLIGAF post by deaddeer

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Do you think I or anyone else cares what you think ,since apparently all you are concerned about is bigger racks?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

I believe that is no less honorable of a desire than to perpetuate the low quality, but guaranteed result, of a filled buck tag for one day a year hunters.
Life is easy when you have low expectations.
Sounds similar to "trout" season.
Which kind hunter works harder for conservation and the sport in general?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

But that was never the case in PA. The success rate of buck hunters was has been below 20% for many years ,so it is not true that the PGC was perpetuating low quality buck in exchange for guaranteed results.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

So you're saying the success rate hasn't changed all that much, per capita?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Per capita, the success rate has dropped significantly. According to the PGC, the buck harvest rate is the same now , as the 25 year average,whatever that means.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

It's always fun when someone gives you the opportunity to stuff their own words right back down their throat. Thats an opportunity I just cant let go, so:

Could you please provide the link to the post where I have claimed that all I'm concerned with are bigger racks?

I don't think so............

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

A picture speaks louder than words, especially in this case. Thanks.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Oh, ouch! thats gonna leave a mark!

If you ever hope to have any credibility on this site, you might want to avoid posts like that one that expose your jealousy/ inferiority/low self esteem problems:D

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter

Oh, ouch! thats gonna leave a mark!

If you ever hope to have any credibility on this site, you might want to avoid posts like that one that expose your jealousy/ inferiority/low self esteem problems:D

I am rather surprised you would make that post considering your post accusing me of putting words in your mouth is what started this exchange

I don't recall saying anything about being jealous of your bucks. I always enjoy seeing nice bucks and its always good to know some PA hunters have good deer hunting.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

How can that be a significant drop?
Being the same as the 25 year average would mean it is statistically insignificant. The success rate has not statistically changed much, per capita, though.Do you agree?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

The term,"per capita" includes the entire population of the state, not just hunters.

In 2000 we had 1,038,546 licensed hunters with a buck harvest of 203K for a success rate of 19.5%. In 2005 we had 964,158 hunters and harvested 120K buck for a success rate of 12.5%. So, not only did the success rate drop significantly, the unsuccessful hunters also saw a lot fewer bucks or didn't see any bucks . Also, due to HR and the concurrent season they also saw a lot fewer antlerless deer.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

La dee friggin da....WHO CARES!
Ol Jimbob didn't get to shoot his forky this year....WAAAAHHHH the world is going to end.

Maybe having tougher hunting will cause people to actually have to HUNT for deer. Not just stand in the woods and wait for one to walk by.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

It is more likely to get many more hunters to quit hunting ,which has been the trend under the current deer management plan.
Isn't that exactly what the vast majority of bow hunters do every year? Do you have something against bow hunting.BTW, I realize most bow hunters have an added advantage because they don't stand next to a tree , they are in a stand in the tree above the deers normal line of sight.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Can you give us the success rate for bow hunters?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Well, no.
The term per capita is a Latin phrase meaning "per head" or for the more simple minded..."per hunter". When relating to per capita, the term would be applied only to parties of interest to the subject. You would not include golfers in the equation, as an example.

Actually, your figures are skewed. The harvest in 2000 was before concurrent seasons. So anyone out hunting would not stop unless they hunted their allotment of usual days, or they shot a buck.

In 2005 we had concurrent seasons where a certain percentage of hunters shot the first DEER that came along, and then were not permitted to harvest another that day. A high percentage of hunters do not return after the first day. There would then be a disproportionate number of hunters on subsequent days of the season, because there is more participation on day one than all that follow.
You are comparing the proverbial apples and Oranges in your figures.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

The archer is hunting unpressured whitetails. Deer that move very little during daylight hours. The act of sitting in a tree is not the same as what Ryan referred to in gun season. An archer must pattern the deer and actually BE THERE if and when they come thru. Then he must draw and hold all the energy that will propel the small cutting instrument that must be placed with precision into a vital area. This must be accomplished in close proximity to the animal and the wind must be consiidered when placing stands. There are many disadvantages to archery hunting and the success rates bear this out. The main advantage to archery hunting is not having to deal with JimBob the gun hunter. The deer can be hunted in a natural wild state and not pressured and running stampede through the woods. Usually, in archery season, you are the only hunter to shoot your deer.
I hope this clears up many of your misconceptions about archery hunting Bird..

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Bluebird please don't misconstrue Dr. Demarais' teachings. There comes a point in time when antler restrictions do result in highgrading, but that is under relatively perfect conditions. Pennsylvania and New York are nowhere near those perfect conditions. The buck to doe ratio would have to be 3 to 1 or better, habitat & nutrition conditions pristine and several years of antler restrictions would have to have been in place to be at a highgrading level. Then and only then do you change the methodology of the management plan taking into account actual deer aging, antler mass andwidth and include culling as part of the harvesting plan (as they do in places like Texas).

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

I for one would be more than happy to pay double, triple, whatever for license fees to compensate for every hunter we lose that has your mentality.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Let's take up a collection.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Your post is quite interesting since I have never seen the criteria you posted associated with high grading. Can you provide a link to the sorce of that info?

High grading occurred after just 4 years of ARs in Miss and it occurred across all soil types . When high grading occurred in Miss. the habitat was not pristine. Our B/D ratio in PA before ARs was 1:2 and the herd was at or below the MSY carrying capacity, so I suppose PA met your criteria for high grading.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

In 2000 the archery buck harvest success rate was 13.5% and in 2005 it was 11.8%. So over the same period the rifle buck harvest decreased by 7% the archery success rate only decreased by 1.7%. Now factor in the fact that archers like Livbucks only shoot 10 pts in archery and can still fill their buck tags the concurrent season, which group of hunters do you think has the advantage?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Thanks!

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

That is an interesting theory and that is all that it is. You have no way of knowing how many hunters were affected by harvesting an antlerless deer the first day and I am not sure you are correct that hunters were limited to one deer/day. As i recall in 2005 the deer had to be tagged and removed before another deer could be harvested ,but i could be wrong about that. In any case, we harvest about 80% of our legal buck with or without a concurrent season, so that is not an issue.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Um... lets see. A high powered rifle bulletleaves the weapon at velocities ranging from around 23-2400 to over 3000fps. Most deer rifles are equipped with scopes that magnify the target anywhere from 2 to 12 times. The rifle can kill by shock as well as by hemmorage or pnuemothorax which greatly increases the practical kill zone on a deer. The average deer rifle is easily effective at 150-300 yards even in the hands of relative beginners and shooters who don't practice more than a handful of shots per year.

As for the bow, it propells its' projectile at roughly 175-300 fps. No practical telescopic sights are available, it relies on either hemmorage of pneumothorax to kill a deer so the taget kill zone is about half that of a rifle. It must be drawn and held in the presence of the game and it's effective range is less than 50 yards and realistically should be confined to shots of less than 30 in most cases.

To anyone who has to ask the question you posed, I beleive Bill Engval has your answer.....


HERE'S YOUR SIGN!!!!

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Thats easy...rifle hunters.
They spend considerably less time afield per success than bowhunters.
Many rifle hunters' seasons can be measured in hours.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

While the facts you posted may be true , it still doesn't change the fact that in 2005 the success rate for archery buck hunters was 11.8% and the success rate for rifle hunters was 12.5%
In 2005,269K archers got to hunt for at least 120K legal buck ,while around 900K rifle hunters got to hunt for 90K legal buck. Rifle hunter had two weeks to harvest a buck while archers had at least 12 weeks. So which group had the advantage?

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

An interesting quandary exists also, that bowhunter buck success eliminates hunters from the rifle buck success statistics, but the same is NOT true in the opposite. So you are eliminating all of the bow successes from the rifle hunter tags available. The available Bow tags remain constant with no such elimination. Should a person exert the effort to pursue the time demanding aspect of archery, they should by rights be afforded a separate buck tag.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

Bluebird, the reason Dr. Gary Alt chose the AR plan with extensive deer management permits was because the buck to doe ratio in Pennsylvania was so out of whack. Don't know where you got your number from, but it is incorrect. Do not portend to compare the habitat of Mississippi with northern states. To do so would be ignorant. Mississippi habitat has a much longer growing season and its soil is lush with the vitamins and nutrients that generate much better antler development. Therefore highgrading absolutely comes earlier down there. Not sure if you would consider this a link but Dr. Demarais and I discussed this a few weeks ago in Chattanooga , Tennessee at the QDMA convention.
(perhaps pristeen was a littleextreme as far a terminology but my point was that the habitat in Mississippi is a lot better then Pennsylvania or NY)

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

That stat is mathematically impossible. Check my earlier post, amend your figures and come back.

RE: PA deer Quizz
 

It is easy to make that claim ,but it is not easy to provide the data to support it. No one knows how many hours archers spend /harvest and they don't know how many hours rifle hunters spend /harvest. Does the average archer hunt all day or does he hunt for a couple of hours in the morning or evening? Which hunter covers more ground and exerts more physical effort? the archer that sits in a stand or the rifle hunter that still hunts or conducts drives for others? Archers have the opportunity to hunt the entire PS herd, but rifle hunters get to hunt what is left after archery, the early ML season and the early jr/sr. early season.