ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

I keep hearing everyone complain about not seeing deer and they keep blaming the Pa game commission... well I see it differently... I blame the hunters.. We as hunters need to stop shooting doe!!! If we keep on the pace we are at the deer population will hit dangerously low numbers and ruin hunting forever in PA... also had a game commissioner tell me this too... A bunch of us started the other year buying the doe tags and not using them... hunt bucks only!! what thrill is it shooting a doe anyways.. let the kids take a crack at them not adults... I drove by a hunting camp the first week of the season and saw 5 does hanging on a meat pole... that takes out 10-15 deer for next season... maryland is heading in the same direction as PA is... I shake my heads at guys who shoot doe and tell them not to complain if they stop seeing deer... I do like the point restriction that PA has and it is starting to work... but if we completely shoot off all the does like guys are there will be no bucks either... please take it into consideration to not shoot does unless your in a very populated are with deer... spread the word also to other hunters... Also take this into consideration... when most of us Pa hunters started hunting there were deer all over... the new generation hunters go out and see NOTHING!! that is no fun .. most kids these days would rather play x-box or other video games instead of sitting in the woods and not seeing anything... we are ruining hunting for PA and forever! Think about it!

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

It is not my desire to toot my own horn, but I am the one who was the first (to my knowledge) to make the statement that anybody who complains about not seeing any deer, and then shoots the only doe/fawn/button buck they see has no right to complain. I was the lone voice preaching this philosophy for several years up to this point. The decision to shoot is the hunter's and his alone. We can all do our part to manage the herd in our own little way.
I am not against taking a deer of any kind for yourself, but just because they hand you all the tags you desire, does not make filling as many as you can the prudent thing to do. There are areas that can sustain that type of harvest and those that can't. An educated hunter can make the distinction and act accordingly.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

The Game Commission is broke, that is why they sold so many licenses.

But buying a license and then not using it is like buying a new car and then driving it into a tree. You aren't going to hurt Ford or Chevrolets feelings if you just destroyed your own car. You paid for it and you can do what ever you want.

Just remember, I saw at least a dozen people shoot deer and then not tag them. I saw at aleast 11 people road hunt a deer out of that group. I saw two people that shot spikes and then said either that they were senior citizens and didn't have to abide by the antler restrictions or that they had children under the age of 12 with them that shot the deer and that it was legal. Only I never saw the kids.

There is a lot of shenanigains going on out there and one little old doe isn't going to make a difference in a state that has 750,000 hunters and Millions of acres of land for them to hunt on.

You are just fooling yourself to think that the hunters are doing all the damage. Farmers are allowed to kill as many as they need to - to keep the crop damage down. One farmer in my area shot over 120 deer in one year- next to the PA gamelands because he felt that they were cutting into his crop production.

This year in the same gamelands I saw two old does at quitting time running across a reclaimed strip job. That was the only deer in 5175 acres I saw and I hunted pretty hard!

Then there are the coyotes, which you cannot step on a rock along the road without stepping on coyote poop.

What are they eating?

Eliminate doe season for 3 years and the deer will come back. Just that the PGC does not want the deer numbers we once had. They want you to go out and hunt for a deer and not just ride around in a car and shoot out the window like your dad did.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Ishoot several doe each year andI feel no guilt what so ever.We protected the does for way too long in many parts of Pa and the habitat is a disaster as a result.We'll never be able to sustain higher numbers of healthy deer in these places until the habitat reovers.The first step in aiding that recovery is to kill doe.

When I was a kid,I had quite a few days afield each yearwhere I didn't see a thing.I never got bored and I never wanted to quit.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

rifleman,there's no deer but a farmer killed 120 deer next to the gamelands?If that farm was 300 acres,which is a big farm,he had 240 deer per square mile.If that's the case,he did the right thing.I didn't see twelve deer harvested all season whileI was in the woods but you saw 12 that weren't tagged and two illegal spikes.Did you turn in any of those 14 offenders?

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Doug
That's not his job remember. He can't be bothered with doing the right thing. It's the WCO's job to catch poachers.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Isn't it amazing how the same guys who can't manage to see more than a deer or two all season all seem to have these stories about mass slaughter right under their noses


I challenge you to name the farm, the locationand the adjoining game lands

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Also, if a farmer shoots deer for crop damage he CAN NOT Post his land and must allow hunting to help curb the deer damage. So go talk to him and get permission to hunt his land sounds like a good spot!

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

folks,no ifs ands or buts about it if you see an illegal activity report their arses.Every last one of them.Poachers make me wanna puke.They poach cause they don't know how to hunt.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Hey germain, how was your season ?

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

its good to see we have some on this topic that ARE SPORTSMAN.

as for other 2,well, in time maybe they will WAKE UP to what is happening.

its hard to not get THAT MEAT ,isnt it, douge..

dont despair,YOU ARE NOT ALONE,its like using drugs from what i see!you got to have it!

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

The density up at camp (2F)IS down. Thedensity at home is like two different worlds. If I was looking for meat, there is one placeI would spend my time, and another I wouldn't. But that's just me.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

There are a lot of people out there that just want to kill something. I have 3 doe tags and I don't even carry them with me. When I tell othere guys that there are a lot ofthem that respond by saying 'well if you don't shoot them - someone else will'. Its this mentality that is hard to change.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

The farm is owned by the London family and is located in a area know as Burkett Hollow.

Londons, Burketts and Horners are all neighbors and are all related by marriage. They all own hundreds of acres of land in that area.

The State Gamelands is known as 31, the road is called Harringer / Eterline road. Don't ask about the proper spelling.

The story was confirmed by the Jefferson County Adult Probation Officer - Larry Stratiff - you can call him over at the Jefferson County Courthouse and ask him if you wish.

There is a big difference between baiting - using food to entice a deer onto your property for the purpose of shooting it and hunting in the BIG WOODS.

None of their farms are posted and you are welcome to go there and hunt all you want - as long as you ask for permission.

The second day of rifle season I believe, there was afarmer waiting at the mailbox at the end oftheir lane and there was a doe standing at the mailbox on the other side of the road and there were a couple of does not 1/8 of a mile down the road from that mailbox. But you cannot shoot within 150 yards of any occupied house or building without the permission of the occupants. Which means you cannot hunt around the house.

Take 1575 acres and then figure the other 2000 acres of land around the game lands and divide that by 100 deer, that is only a deer density of about 1 deer per 375 acres - before the slaughter. Now you kill 100 deer and the woods looks pretty empty.

I saw plenty of deer on posted ground other placesright next to the game lands, just that you cannot get permission to hunt on that property, the deer are not dumb.

I believe that the name on one ofthe posted sign's was Brian Smith. There are as many Smiths in the Punxsy area as there are in all of Indiana County.

If they go in there and nobody bothers them, they can come and go as they please and will not go into the game lands unless pressured.

Would you go someplace where there is nothing for you to eat and hunters that will shoot at you if you go there? Neither will they!

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Some of you guys are really amusing.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Sproul,How am I supposed to wake up?I see plenty of deer on the public lands in 2G and very,very few hunters.The habitat is poor in most places and it won't ever recover if the deer herd increases.I don't complain about seeing no deer like most of you.The last two years were the best years I ever had.There were days I didn't see a thing,just like there's always been but the sign is out there and so is the deer.

By the way,I can show you example after example of a shrub layer and other preferred regeneration under a mature canopy.Wide open woodswith a nothing but fens in the understory is indicative of deer damage and poor habitat for almost every creature.

You do your part for your misguided opinions and I'll do mine.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

I honestly think things go in cycles.. Pa is losing more and more hunters every year... why?.. maybe time is an issue, maybe lack of deer?..I also hunt Maryland and I see it going the same way as PA soon.. the only trouble down there is that there are a lot of deer in neighborhoods like New Jersey and they seem to trickle back into the hunting areas every year, but it is getting worse... But there is one property that I hunt that is 300 acers and approx. 100 deer on it and the racks are bigger than any I seein pa all they have is some acorns and two grass fields to feed on... I think its a bunch of crap when people think there should be 1 deer 100 acers... for a healthy habitat. They are clueless. But the main reason I started this post was because of the state game land in Pa, not private land.. the state game lands are suffering. back to the cycles comment I believe once the hunter numbers get low enough the deer herd will make a comeback.. I don't think coyotes are impacting them enough to really make a difference.. or the private land guys would be hurting and they are not. At least the bunch I know and they have coyotes.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Season went pretty well BT.Got permission to hunt a farm down here in 5b and killed a nice buck the third week of archeryseason.I pretty miuch quit because of the hot weather then one rainy evening it cooled off a plan came together.
Son got a decent eight the first day of archery.Other two sons didn't score on buck but one got a fall turkey.We'll give grouse another shot yet.Jumped quite a few this year but most times they weren't sitting tight enough to get a shot.
thanks for asking

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

I think the game commission is doing a great job. They are getting everyone disgusted about hunting. Especially the young kids. They quickly learn that hunting is no fun because they dont see any deer. The older generation is quitting too because they now how good it use to be and they are not seeing the deer they use to. They are mostly lazy and dont do much scouting. THis is great..The Game commission is going to get rid of the hunters that are just weekend warriors. Only the hardcore hunters will remain with few new hunters joining. THats great I will eventually be hunting by myself out their with limitless doe tags and probably buck tags. AND ANOTHER thing i am tired of hearing about bad habitat. WE need to cut these big woods down. Especially in our parks and state forest. Deer are an edge species which means they prefer low habitat which gives them food. What good is an old aged forest good for. I think it is good for woodpeckers and a few other species. We need to cut down these big forest in our state. All the species that are game species love this uprising forest that a clear cut creates. THe best thing would to cut block of woods in cycles to creat a variety of habitat in a microlevel. Clear cutting is the answer to better habitat, its time to release the biomass back into young individuals trees. I dont understand why state forest leave their woods become big woods that produces few game.They could even set up a fund from the timber sales to do just about anything. A great thing would be to buy more land which is available to anybody to use. PA is going to be a state were you must either lease or own your own land===Which suck for the people that dont own or lease anything......

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

God Bless you!


and again

again

Halleluya

Where did you come from?!? I need to go there!


Because that's what the city yups from Jersey want to see when they put on their hikers and pack a basket to drive out for a day of pecker watching. Some are from Philly too.
They don't want to have to wade through that pesky underbrush! They wear hiking shorts for Pete's sake!

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

I am w/ you, cut cut and cut. But what gets me is that they do a very small cut then put up the fences. [:@] I can see doing that where the deer numbers are high but notnow w/ the low numbers on puplic land

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

you aint kidding, my dog is still having problems w/ the grouse.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

PA Gobbler,the reason they have to fence,even at low densities is because in poor habitat,it takes very few deer to ruin any regeneration.Most of the damage is done during the winter when deer rely on browse.Deer need about 5 lbs a day to keep wait on and they're very picky eaters.They eat what's good for them at what's pallatable first.When you have poor habitat and make a cut,deer quickly key in on it.Around here,they actually are drawn to the sound of chainsaws and often start hitting the topswhile the loggers are still cutting.I can show exampleafter example of clearcuts that were ruined by deer,even though hunters claim these areas have no deer.

More logging would be great for the near future but then we'll be in the same situation we're in now.Clearcuts only benefit deer for about 15 yearsForests in the seedling sapling stage can easily support 60+ dpsm but in about 15 years when it turns to pole timber,there's virtually no benefit and the carrying capacity dominished to about 5 dpsm.That's exactly what's happened top alot of areas.Unfortuantely,timber stays in the pole timber stage much longer than the seedling sapling stage.

The plan is to cut 1% of the timber each year.That guarantees that we'll always have a certain amount of timber in the early succession stage.Let's say they bumped it up to 5% a year.That would mean all of our forests would be cut over the next 20 year.Things would be great during that time but in about 15 years,most of the timber would be in the pole stage and the carrying capacity would plummet and it would stay that way for a long,long time.

Fencing is bad for everyone,including the deer.Fortunately,now that the deer density is down,they are starting to have timber sales without the need to fence.This is the first year inmany yearsthat Moshannon state forest is having timber sales without having to fence them and it's all because of less deer.It's really important that people realize how bad low deer numbers can still impact poor habitat.The PGC is trying to make sure we get out of that mess and that's important for thefuture of wildlife and hunting.The sooner hunters understand that,the better off we'll all be.Killing does isn't about greed.It's doing what needs to be done.

This situation is very complicated and it is a science.Go out and spenda day with a foester from DCNR and it will boggle your mind what goes into marking,selling and cutting a piece of timber.There's also certain retraints that they are beyond their control that they have to abide by.They don't hate the deer and want them all gone.A certain amount of deer is actually necessary to keep a balance because deer browse many of the species thatare in direct competition with what they're trying to grow.However,the evidence is obvious and indisputable that deer are the number one factor effecting the habitat in not only Pa but many other states as well.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Doug- at first you said at low numbers they have to put up fences then you said this year for Mosh they won't have to because of the low numbers. So is the DCNR doing the wrong thing? What is the PGC stance on this, are they going to use fences on low deer number cut areas?
Starting last spring they started cutting the area I hunt. They made one cut then moved over about 500yrds and did a 2nd cut. I happened to see the guy doing the cutting and talked to him, he told me that they are doing a 3rd cut also when the 2nd cut is done. I asked him about the fence and he said that he is contracted out so he is not sure. This area has a lot of fields very close to the cuts, it does have one very small clover plot- est. 1 acre. They did not touch it this past year and the plot was in bad shape.
I understand that the deer will eat a cut big time, but would it not be a good idea to maybe make some bigger food plots, in this area and maybe make some winter plots also. Maybe this will take off some of the pressure on the cuts. I see this at one of the largest farms in Pa, farm has too many deer but his browse is in pretty good shape also, because of the other food available. I understand that the questions would be how would they pay for that and I would think the money saved on the fence would be a good start. Good idea or bad??
thanks for the input

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

I’m no forester, but am trying to learn all I can.
From an economic view, how does selective cutting compare to clear cutting? It seems in my “local” areas many of the landowners have selective cuts done, this leaves the deer with incredible habitat. Now only 10 years have passed since the 1st cut, but there is still dense brush and browse available, and there are some pretty big trees that they could probably cut in another 5 years or so. Is selective cutting more feasible for small scale operations? You never seem to see that as an option for the state lands. I am just curious.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Pagobbler,Low numbers is a pretty subjective thing and means something different to different people.I consider low deer numbers tobe around 15 dpsm overwinter.That gives you right around 20 dpsm preseasonand most hunters you talk to that hunt at those densities start claiming there's no deer.The district forester for Moshannon state forest said they're owdd is righta round 8-9 dpsm in the areas where they aren't having to fence but that isn't the magic number every where.It also matter where a cut is done.Cut's on ridgetops do alot better because during winter when most of the damage occures,the deer tend to move down into the lower elevations and valleys.I can show you low lying areas that have no regeneration and excellent regeneration on the ridgtops just a short distance away.Deer in the mountainous regions effect regeneration differently than they do in the southern part of the state.In moshannon state forest,the habitat is so poor that deer numbers have to brought to an extremely low level in order to get adequate regeneration.

Food plots are another story.First of all,it's extremely expensive to build and maintain food plots in many state game lands.(over 3k per acre in mnay areas)In alot of cases,these lands were purchased cheaply because the ground was worthless for farming.On top of that,deer need bowse to make it through winters.Food plotsdo absolutely no good when there's a heavy snow cover.Deer need browse and it has to be high quality.If you look at what's growing in many places,it's worthless.Beech,striped and birch are not what deer need.As the habitat declines,you see more of these species and less of the preferred species.In turn what happens is these species out compete the preferred species and you're left with poor habitat with an extremely low carrying capacity.In short,you have to look at what browse is actually on that farm.Just because something is growing,doesn't mean it's beneficial.

rybohunter,I'm not a forester and forestry is an actual science.My advise would be top get with an actual forester and have them show you exactly what they do and why they do it.This is very complicated and different areas and different forest compostions respond differently to different forestrytreatments.Go on a few habitat tours and you'll gain alot of insight.

Alot of people mistake a select cut for a shelterwood cut.In areas where oak regeneration is preferred,they often come in and do a shelter wood cut before they do a larger scale cut.Oak seedling need light so they come in and just thin the area to get some advanced regeneration occuring.This is important because if they just came in and clearcut the area,other non-preferred species would quickly dominate theoak and drown them out.

This is all very complicatedand much of it is over my head.However,the guys in charge of managing the game and the habitat really do know what they're doing.Many of us don't likewhat has to be done to get there but it has to be done.Go out and see for yourself what they're doing and why they're doing it.You'll gain a much better understanding of the relationship deer play with the habitat and you'll become a much better hunter in the process.I guarantee it.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

A selective cut usually cuts the hardwoods.. Usually your oaks, cherry,maple, hickory, beach,walnut etc. They pick only these trees mostly. YOu are then left with a forest of green maple, pine trees, aspen, birch, witch hazel, hemlocks, and etc. These trees take over the forest because you open up the canopy and they quickly try to take up as much space as they can. IT is survival of the fittest. These trees dont produce mass crops like most of the hardwoods which makes it less than desirable habitat. The young saplings from the hardwoods will quickly die or grow slow since the lack of light. THe ideal thing is clearcutting. IT gives everything a fair shot. THe ideal of a good clear cutt is to rotate the cut every 15 years so you have a balance in your ecosystem. IF i had land though i would cut everything that wasnt a good mass producing tree. But that waymakes you no money.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

DOUGE sounds good i hunted black moshannon when i went to school, i seen few deer.n i found it hard to believe their was even 9 deer per square mile their. you can see forever and i never seen any deer, few. MAybe it was just the area that i hunted, but i quickly learned to find a different area to hunt.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Thanks for the help guys. I am going to try to make it to one of those tours this year. I always seem to have something going on when they schedule them. [&:]

The places I hunt were selective cut for cherry. That was the predominant tree. They didn't take many, if any oaks. I think they may have been too small still. The predominant species now are mostly tulip poplars, with some mixed in maple, ash, and oaks. And still a few cherries that were too small to cut. I'm figuring this was all done for money, not habitat improvement.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Mike,Good post.I agree with what you said but it all really depends on what the forest composition is.Approximately 40% of Pa is northern hardwoods which includes most of the trees you mentioned execept the oak.Oak is not part of northern hardwoods forest and it shouldn't be counted on to regnenerate in these areas.About 40% of Pa is make up of oak/hickory forests.In an oak hickory forest,the best method to ensure regeneration of oaks is to first go in and do a shelterwood cut to get some advanced oak regeneration going.This really is a science and it isn't as simple as going in and cutting everything in sight like so many think.

I was actually referring to Moshannon state forest not Black moshannon.I think it's actually the same district but the parts of Moshannon state forest I'm talking about are close to Parker dam.Your assessment about Black moshannon is right on the money.I can't even understand why people would expect areas like that to have alot of deer.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

This might explain an area that i have talked about before where an ice storm a few years back knocked a lot of trees down and in this area, i have seen the most oak regeneration that ive ever seen in my life. Thanks Doug for all the info, it helps a lot. [/align]

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

So Doug let me guess when you hunt near cuts, you leave the grunt call at home and bring the chainsaw call w/ ya lol just kiddin man[/align]

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

It beats hunting an area where they come to the sound of pebbles rattling in a can.:D

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

OK don't give Primos and MAD calls any ideas. Next thing we know we'll be debating Grunt Tube VS Chainsaw call

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

A chainsaw call would sound neat.:eek:

I watched a show on tv where the deer were waiting in the woods for the loggers to leave.When they fired up the chainsaws the deer knew that meant dinner so they started moving in and waited right inside the woods till the coast was clear.I think it was Michigan.
I might try that next year.Hope I don't get shot.:D

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

my dad used to own a camp right down the road from this farm. a couple of years ago i hunted this game lands. i counted 45 cars on my drive in one sat. there were deer and shots flying everywhere. by the end of the two week season i was a nervous wreck. it was the worst hunting season i ever had, i didn't enjoy my time in the woods at all, and i have never been back ther since. i'm glad i'm out of the area after hearing this.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

yes, you are right..

being i am out in woods more than most are,like 4 days all year i see and hear things that most dont..

i agree with you on the SGL hunting..
this land has best habitat in world, they do great job at it..
i stop and talk to land managers there all time..
years ago you would hear/see shooting like you described here.

it was NUTS..
i found deer that were not tagged many times because they shot so many by SAME hunter or crew..
it was MEAT hunting.

now, you can go there,you wont see deer.
best HABITAT in world..
same with squirrreals/grouse/rabbits, very few but best HABITAT in world..........

I WONDER WHY?

we hear some on here say,SPROUL IF YOU HAVE GREAT HABITAT YOU WILL HAVE LOTS OF FAWN RECURITEMENT..
1 is even a WCO ...........
he is RIGHT but is DEAD WRONG..........

you will never have anything to hunt if hunters kill fawns and overharvest doe like i am seeing in WMU 2G...

SGL land here in pa is a GREAT example...

here is favorite saying now.........

ITS BROWN ITS DOWN WITH A KIDS TAG..........
IF I DONT SHOOT FAWN ,SOMEONE ELSE WILL.......
I NEED DEER JERKY...........
DEER WILL STRAVE IF I DONT SHOOT ALL OF THEM........

not too many times do i hear this from us hunters,I LET FAWN OR DOE GO SO WE HAVE DEER FOR US AND KIDS FUTURE HUNTING.......
OH, I ONLY BOUGHT DOE TAG TO FEEL GOOD, I DONT USE IT..
SOME are telling truth on that but over HALF ,say that but use tag.................
I DID NOT SHOOT THAT SPIKE BUCK FOR MY KID ,thats great but most shoot the spike if kids are along.......

sadly,some always find way to get around SYSTEM..

without STRICT RULES and WCO checking US, i dont mind have WCO shake me down..
this is going to continue...

this year here in clinton county is first year i saw NO WCO ,none on patrol...
everyone knows this and you can bet lots of violations were commited,i guess you could call it NO FEAR!!!!!!!!!

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

good points sproulman... I can't stand how some hunters think... i was hunting western MD this year and I was buck hunting only... I was sitting near a creek and heard a shot from the other side soon after 3 does came running across the creek and one had its guts hanging out... I left them run by me and figured someone would cross the creek soon to track it.. no one ever came so i walked down the way they went and saw it laying there bedded down so I finished it off... I heard more shots later that day in the same area whether it was the same guy or not.. i'm not sure but you know as well as I do he probably was shooting at more if he saw them... there are just a lot of unethical hunters that don't give a rip and they will ultimately ruin it for the true hunters and sportsman. And back to PA game commission with how they are running our public hunting lands is not only hurting PA but it is hurting the states surrounding us. I know the hunters I talk to in Maryland are sick and tired of PA guys coming down.. because there deer population is starting to suffer and the woods are loaded with guys. I can't really talk because i travel to hunt maryland for bow hunting only.

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

i have a farmer friend that told me he was only allowed to kill 1 deer every 28 days year round, but had to give the PGC the hide before they got the next tag to use within the next28 days....did they change something within the last 2 years.................bob

....

RE: ATTENTION PA HUNTERS
 

Farmers can kill as many as they want.The PGC doesn't give them tags to kill for crop damage.