Do we really want to hang on to this???
 

The hunting tradition. Generally tradional things are good, but sometimes you have to step back, take a look and know when to start something new.

Hunting in PA. 1 million pumpkin impersonators out in search of the ever elusive buck. Not quite elbow to elbow but usually overlapping gun range. You see horns you shoot, and keep shooting so the next guy don't get it.

If a hit deer comes near you, shoot at it, whether you hit it or not, run over and tag it before the next guy does.

By 9:00 if your cold, jump in the truck and ride around all day. See one, jump out and shoot it, before the next guy does.

If you do manage to see a buck and start shooting at him, shoot as many times as possible, that increases your chances of getting him.

Scouting for buck season. Friday after thanksgiving take a little walk so you know how to get to your stand. Might see a buck rub or 2 then you can get excited. Don't worry about feeding/bedding/staging areas. Pick a trail and hope one comes by at something less than mach 3.

If you see a 3 1/4" spike, shoot him. He'll never be any bigger, and besides, the next guy would get him.

These are just some of the "traditional" mentalities here in PA that the PGC is fighting against to do what is going to benefit both the deer and hunters, but they are too close-minded to realize it.

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Amen! Well said Wimp. I agree completely.

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I sure as heck couldn't have said it any better. Way to go Wimp!

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is this a hunting site or a bash the gun hunter site?

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Do you hunt where I do wimp?

<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Same mentality in NY too Wimp.Its not just PA.

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O GOD! MORE BASHING OF PENNSYLVANIA! COME ON! Your post name says it all. Do we really want to hang on to this, but I am refering to this ignorant comments that make EVERY Pennsylvania hunter look bad. Like normal, this is more fuel for PETA. &quot;GOOD POST&quot; though. (sarcasim in its greatest form)

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

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I would like to think that this is a hunting site where people may express their opinions!
As for my opinion, I think wimp hit the nail on the head. Certainly not all hunters display this behavior, but a large percentage of us do. Anyone who would dispute this fact must hunt in a very remote area that I have never heard of.

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The mentaility Wimp ahs expressessed is the one that will be successful in killing deer hunting in PA. Its the kind of metality which is leading to antler restrictions.(Which in my opinion are complete and utter horse crap!!!!!) Opinion like these not only fuel the anti's but they also fuel Gary Alts machine that seeks to wreck deer hunting in PA.

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LLS, I don't belive Wimp is bashing the gun hunters, he's bashing the &quot;first day&quot; in PA. I agree with him 100%, but you know what, I wouldn't miss it for the world. The issue is not gun hunters it's PA. I spent 4 days last week in Dallas on business, found out a few of the guys at the meeting were hunters, one from west Texas, the other from Arkansas. I had pictures of my archery buck(8 point) saved on my laptop. When they both saw the pictures they said, &quot;not to be rude, but we would never shoot that deer.&quot; Maybe if we respected the resource, the &quot;first day&quot; would be more enjoyable for all. gibster

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Well said Beachhunter.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

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Beachhunter, it is not just an opinion! And anyone who hunts in PA knows it!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Your right wimp. Not all, but a good many of the hunters are exactly what you just described. WE as the hunters have to change the mindset of ourselves and the other's around us. For some this is all they know. This is how they're parents and grandparents hunt, so how would they know any different. Tradition is a wonderful thing, but with new times and more knowledge old tradition have to change and new ones made. My family has the same routine every year. Nothing illegal. But same stands, same time, same camp, and same small bucks every year. Although I love to spend the time with them. I really enjoy spending more time scouting and trying to find the deer than I do hunting them.

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Wimp way to go man well said. YOu only forgot one thing as they shoot at any buck that is running he shoots with out ever knowing where that bullet flys after he or she misses.

It may be like this but I also wouldn't miss it for the world. Nothing like opening day.

brian

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Ya know wimp, I think you forgot the all important camp weekend leadin up to opening day... Arrive at camp friday after thanksgiving with 8.2 cases of beer and 2 boxes of cigars per man. The poker game starts then and no one washes anything till at least next Wednesday. Bust up the local tavern Saturday night and start a brawl there again watchin the Steeler game on Sunday. After the game sight in the old thutty thutty on the spike lickin the salt block behind camp. He'll keep till the morning! Hunt Monday till 7:30 AM and then whine the rest of the week that you gotta hunt a week to see 1 or 2 deer. And somewhere in there you find the time to make a Gary Alt Voodoo Doll to stick some pins in.

AHHHH TRADITION!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - btbowhunter on 01/18/2002 08:15:03

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I can hear the applause. Well said.

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You spoke the God's honest truth Wimp. It's like that here in NY too. After getting shot in the back with a 12 guage slug on opening day this year, it made me stop and take a really good look at what's going on. I think a lot of the younger guys today see too many outdoor shows on TV, making it look like it's so easy to bag a big one. They get frustrated too easy and tend to shoot it up too much if you ask me. No one seems to want to be patient and put the time in to hunt anymore. I'm not saying it was all that much better in the years before, but it seems like it was, most likely because there were a lot less hunters out there. I have to be honest and say that I think that for every good, safe, ethical and law abiding hunter, there are 10 that can easily be considered slobs. I'm probably going to get blasted on this, but it's time we all woke up to reality. Only we can do something about it. We have to be the teachers and do a better job of teaching.

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Crowpecker
I sure hope they don't outnumber us 10 to 1 but my perspective hasn't been adjusted by a slug! Thank God you weren't more seriously hurt. There are way too many out there that are exactly as we described here. I would also venture to say that that's the type most likely to resist changes to our deer management for their own selfish reasons. Before I start a firestorm.... That was not meant to include the people on this board that really care about the resource but may happen to disagree with myself and others on deer managemnent. The type described above doesn't care about the deer herd more than 1 or 2 days a year. I don't believe that 99% of those reading this fall under that category.

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Thanks for the support guys and gal.
I'm just telling it like it is. I like to shoot deer with a rifle too, but the way rifle season is, I try pretty hard to tag out in archery season.
Rather than people crying about being badmouthed and getting a bad reputaion, try to work to change it. I doubt many of the hunters described above come to these boards, but some do. If we can all just try to slowly turn the tide and help people to see things, then ALL hunters can benefit. Sometimes the truth hurts, and don't look good, but that's when you have change attitudes and actions to make it better.

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I totally agree with Wimp's post. I've seen the same type of hunting on public lands here in Delaware. I hunted Blackbird west of Clayton this shot gun season and had a very small button buck walk by me. I watched him walk to the bean feild. When he exited the woods a hunter fired the little guy took off down the wood line and another hunter fired than another and so on. Finally he fell after having more ammo fired at him then the Alqeda terrorist group. It made me wonder who would be proud to check in such a small deer. Are there actual hunters that take pride in shooting such small deer.

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Now, I must agree with you WIMP. There are hunters out there like what you have described. I don't think that there are as many as your original post sounded like, but we should educate them. I TOTALLY agree with that. I think that EVERY hunter should respect the animals that they pursue and they should pursue them in a LEGAL and ETHICAL fasion.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

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While I agree that Wimps post gives an accurate picture of many hunters in Pa., my problem with this presentation is that it sets up a strawman to represent anyone who doesn't agree with Alt and [blindly?] follow him. To many of you guys, anyone who doesn't buy into whatever the PGC says is one of the beer swilling buffoons pictured above. While these people exist in abundance and may just spend their camp time plunging needles into the groin of an Alt doll, they are their own group and do not represent everyone who thinks Alt's approach is a lot of smoke and mirrors and lacking in the real numbers that his agressive program should already have.

Remember, there are a lot of us who are educated and non conspiratorial who believe PGC figures on anything are suspect (for good scientific reasons) and, accordingly, do not go gaga over every word that flows from the Althouse.

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Well said, Wimp.

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Buck magnet, you are still pretty young right, and I don't know how many places you've hunted but, the more different areas of the state you go to and the more years you spend in the woods, the more of the people I described you will see. Granted they still might be in the minority, but it is a rather large group none the less.

Missedagain,
I am by no means setting this up as a follow Alt or you are one of these guys scenerio. I do feel a lot of anti-Alt guys have these tendencies, but I do realize not all. I myself was quite Anti-Alt and PGC in general. THen I started trying to learn and listen to as much info as I could get on the topic. Take that info and decide for myself what I felt was right. My conclusions are that I have much more support for Alt now. Still not 100% but maybe 75%. I think there are too many guys out there that just absolutely despise the PGC, whether warranted or not, and now that they actually do have a good plan, everyone's pre-existing distrust for them, doesn't allow Alt to implement a better plan of deer management.

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There good wimp and the truth But what is the long term result of change that is proposed,again If you never lived and hunted in other states that went thru the same thing Pa is you will never know or probably not believe me when i tell you.Im not saying these results are all bad ,but get used to them in the future.1/2 the private farms locked up to free hunting,you pay the farmer or a outfitter who rents the farm. Big bucks are on the pay to hunt places ,gamelands still not to great.Cost more to hunt,and forget seeing deer everyday and unless you pay or lease or own your own property prepare to get a buck 1 out of every 5 years.You aint going to fill your freezer with does ,the herd will be cut in half and the doe tags cut.I lived in two states and I witnessed this happen ,and Pa aint no different.

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Just curious Cardeer, what states are you talking about?

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Texas,Iowa ,Ill., Kansas are the ones I can be a witness to.Iowa was great ,but it is getting all locked up and the residents are just starting to realize what is happening and there starting to protest,but the money people already greased the politicians,they lost the battle and alot of there free farms to hunt on.

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What I was trying to ask is where did the deer herd get cut in half? Did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?
I can only talk about Illinois from experience and their herd numbers are right where they should be. Yes private land free to hunters is rapidly dissappearing there. The landowners that pay the taxes don't seem to mind the money but some non landowning locals are not happy.

Pennsylvania is kind of unique when it comes to private property. Everywhere else you don't even think about hunting without permission but here in Pa we have all grown up with the mindset that if it aint posted it must be OK to hunt here. I think thats probably going to change here quickly.

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Well said Wimp! I've hunted the ANF for 3 years now...I used to hunt private land in Clarion Co. I try to get back home to Clarion to hunt as often as I can. Too many people, not enough space. I agree 100%.

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Bt ,Texas was the state I seen the biggest doe reduction.But honestly I have seen the doe herd in my area of Pa reduced more the half the last five years. And you know what ,just 2 nights ago I had 11 doe and 7 buck feeding in my back yard,what bad doe to buck ratio? In the public land thats where.

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Some of you seem to have good deer populations in your areas and some don't. Whatever the number of deer in Pa was at the start of the season, the PGC ultimately aims to cut it in half. I am not saying that as some scare tactic. That is what the PGC has openly stated. The last figure I heard was somewhere around 700,000 as a desired pre season herd.

The reasons for antler restrictions is to allow 100,000 plus bucks to carry over to the next year. On the surface that sounds like a mouthwatering idea. One dry year and then monsters everywhere. But remember, Alt and the boys are crying about habitat and that the herd has to be reduced. If you let 100,000 bucks walk, you have to take an extra 100,000 doe to break even. And remember, the aim is to reduce--not break even. So, more than 100,000 extra doe have to be taken next year if the desire is to reduce the herd and shield 100,000 bucks.

I am not sure that an extra 100,000 doe can be killed. I think we hit a wall this year. I do not think that there are anywhere near the number of deer in this state that the PGC says, but that is another issue. I don't know anyone who passed up on a doe this past season, but certainly some did. But another 100,000 plus doe next year? We'll see.

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You know, this is the most destructive post to hunting and hunters I've read here in a long time. You guy's perpetuate the sterotype of hunters that all anti-hunters try to sell to the public. You should be ashamed of yourselves. It just goes to show how much this new trophy hunting mentality is more destructive to hunting than it is constructive. It causes a great division among hunters, and it somehow propells a small elitist group to paint the majority of hunters and hunting traditions with the same brush as the anti-hunters.

Shooting small, perfectly legal bucks, bucks to be proud of (as is any deer) is not hurting hunting. People like BT Bowhunter, wimp, and the others sitting there applauding them, are the real danger to the future of hunting. I have never bashed anyone on this site, or anywhere for that matter, but you guy's are just plain stupid. You don't have a clue. You are selfish and try to push your hunting style and desires on everyone else, and if they don't agree with you, they are somewhat less of a person or hunter. You are more of an enemy to hunting than PETA will ever be. PETA can't divide us, you can, and from the content of this post seem to be trying very hard to do just that.

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I see your point NJ, the only thing is, Pennsylvania has too many diverse areas to hunt and too many diverse hunters. The always conflict with one another. I don't think that anyone is really bashing anyone on here. BT and I had some arguements, but they never got personal. I know that to PETA and people who aren't from Pennsylvania, this looks bad. In my eyes though, this is a VERY enlightening post. It has opened my eyes up a lot.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

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Well NJ just plain stupid old me has a question. When there is a problem in the family do you just ignore it? No you try to solve it from within. This wasn't posted on a PETA forum it was posted among hunters. If you think that the kind of behavior referred to on this thread doesn't exist, well , naw, I'm not gonna insult you personally. I'll just state the facts. It still exists! And the most loudest noises resisting any change seems to come from those type of guys (in my limited experience) There are a lot of caring folks on this board that the posts don't apply to but there are a very few that I suspect were described to a tee. BTW why dont you criticize the guys who complained that a slob stole their deer or the guys complaining about litterbug hunters or the guys complaining the poachers will be out tonight or the guys that found a deer with it's head cut off. That's all ammo for PETA too. You say I'm just plain stupid, well I say it's just plain stupid to wait for PETA to point out our problems to the world instead of spotlighting the ridiculous within our ranks from time to time in the interest of improving things.

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nj bowhunter, if you would read the opening post on this thread, you would see that it is not strictly about trophy deer hunting. It is however, the cold, hard truth about the first day or two of our rifle season in PA. I may not agree with all that is said here, but no one seems to be pushing their elitist ways down anyones throat. If you, or anyone else wants to shoot a legal, yet not really big buck in this state, that is fine by me. And I would bet that it is fine by bt, and wimp too! What is NOT fine by me, nj bowhunter, is people jumping out of trucks, and firing like idiots, tresspassing when it suits there purpose, or breaking any other game laws whenever they feel the need! If anyone thinks that these practices do not occur on a regular basis in this state, they are the IDIOT! If you don`t want peta, or any other anti-hunting group to use our actions against us, here is a little suggestion for you! Report every violator you see, become active in the war against poachers, and maybe, just maybe all of us hunters in this state, regardless of our weapon of choice, will have things a little better!

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BM
EXACTLY! people can have heated disagreements. Its actually healthy. I know I've learned from them. I've also learned that personal shots don't help and I'm doing my best to prevent taking any at anyone again.

Lets all face it there are a bunch of sincere people who care a great deal about our sport here. It's hard to avoid getting emotional when we disagree. WE may not always agree but just like our USA when attacked by Bin Laden we are all hunters together in the face of the PETAphiles!

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NJ_Bowhntr,
You hit the nail on the head. A trophy mentality has indeed descended on the Pa. hunting community. It is fostered by Alt with his big rack display at his talks and pushed by the Alt/QDM gestapo who wish to ram through major changes and make non believers feel guilty for taking a legal deer.

Some of the antics of the camp hunters are archaic and amusing but that is their business. I think any deer with a bow is a trophy and understand that some feel the same way about deer they infrequently get with a gun. Why must we promote them as some criminal class? You all ought to move to Texas where the game farms are.

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Good Post Wimp! I agree 100% with you too.

Gar

Just Say No to Crossbows!

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I don't have any problem with each hunter having his or her own views, and pursuing this sport in that manner. And I don't deny that the behavior you described exists. However, the title, content and aim of this post is about hunting traditions. The behavior you described is not a hunting tradition anywhere. It's slobish behavior. When you start a post talking about hunting traditions, then go on the label the behavior you did, and follow-up posts add the beer swigging, etc. etc., you had better expect some vicious critism. Those are not hunting traditions. Maybe you should have entitled your post &quot;can we rid ourselves of the slobs&quot;, because that would have set a whole different tone. Yes, differences of opinion are a good thing, and we do need to rid ourselves of the slobs, however, you painted with a pretty broad brush by labeling the behavior you did as &quot;traditions&quot;.

With the title, you associated all the slobish behavior with hunting traditions. Well, people have been jacking deer at night for years too, but it's not a hunting tradition. Your post actually attacked hunting traditions and hunters, not poachers and slobs. Think before you write. And you all have a point. I should have typed &quot;foolish&quot; rather than &quot;stupid&quot;. You may not be stupid people, but your characterization of hunters in this post was foolish. It did come across as though you were lumping all hunters who don't approve of QDM regs in the same class as those who exhibit the behavior you described, ergo earning the 'elists' name in my post.

For the record, I think QDM is a good thing, and passed up over 12 bucks this year from spikes to small 8-pointers. However, I don't think it should be statewide, and I don't think hunters who refuse to practice QDM fall into the same slobish category of classless people in the woods that you assailed in the beginning of this thread. Alt may have some good ideas, but he went about the program backwards. He should have used the available research to divide the state into manageable zones, then designated the necessary area's for herd reduction, and further antler restrictions. I'm sure the division among hunters would have been minimal had he done this.

People who hunt just to see deer, or take a spike, pay the same amount of money that QDM supporters do, and they should be afforded the opportunity to hunt as they wish. With some area's in QDM, and some not, hunters can chose the type of regulations they wish to hunt under.

I stand by what I said; posts like these, and the posters that make them, are more destructive to hunting than PETA. Instead of galvanizing hunters to rid our ranks of the slobs, you lump slobish behavior in with hunting traditions, and cause more division. Maybe, just maybe, your intentions were good, just like Gary Alt, however, just like Alt, you went about it the wrong way.

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See, this post went from a heated discussion by hunters who LOVE their sport and have a HUGE appreciation for the animals to a very good discussion about PETA. We as hunters must ALWAYS stick together. It doesn't matter what you harvest animals with, all that matters is that WE stick together.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)