RE: kill all deer in PA
 

WOW! I am humbled! Lets hurry and get this guy on the game commission while he's still 25 and still knows everything!

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

CORRECTION on buck dispersal.

My mistake there. Sorry about that, I had the numbers transversed. It is roughly 67 -70% of 1 to 1-1/2 year old bucks that disperse.
About 1/3 of themdisperse in spring and the remainder in fall.

My only excuse is old age and simply not paying attention to what I was typing!!!!!!!!

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Mike, come on let’s get serious! TEXAS! Certainly you either are not informed or you are trying to pull the wool, so to speak.
The Texas trophy bucks that are highly touted in magazines and on TV are mostly the product of private-land, intensely managed, and supplement feeding programs. The TWP (our PGC) is not part of those programs. Private ranch owners have wide latitude on how to manage deer on their own property and taking of does is much more intense than it is here on public land.
For each trophy state or province you compare PA to, I’ll show you a state or province that has extremely liberal doe hunting – more so than PA.
Texas, Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Saskatchewan – I don’t care. They are all “either sex” basic license and they all have few limits on taking does.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Again Mike, on your other post:
I don’t think a comparison to passenger pigeons, elk and beaver is, in any way, rational. Those losses were the effect of “Market Hunting.” That took place well before there were any regulations and before the PGC existed.
Your statement that it is; “poor management strategy” is not the same opinion that each and every “real biologist” holds. Not one!
USP and Slinsky scanned all across North America looking for one single biologist who would say that the PGC was wrong, and they failed at every attempt.
I'm thinking you are making up this stuff Mike.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Gobbler, you quote Gary Alt to discredit him but then you come off with other ridiculous statements to discredit yourself. You claim QDM started in Texas in 1969. Are you saying TWP had an official QDM program in 1969? I know that even well before 1969 Texas was putting out some whopper deer. But that was “private land management” and, as far as I know, not an official state sponsored management program. If, however you show me where the state of Texas officially starter QDM, I will admit to my mistake. See my comments to Mike concerning this also.

Back to that term “void of deer.” Just what are you trying to say there? Shooting mature does, “early.”
What’s the difference – they are still dead whether you shoot them early or late. Unless of course you are thinking we should wait until after they’ve had their fawns in May and June! Is that what you are implying? Heck, that would still be “early” into the following year!
You would have to shoot one heck of a high percentage on mature does in order to see a significant drop in population accounted for, after fawns are born.

On one hand some whine about shooting button bucks as antlerless, on the other hand they whine about shooting mature does. If that is happening consider this:
“HOW” can we continue to kill too many button bucks and too many does – if there is a “void?”
Better yet, how could we consistently shoot too many does, never mind the bb’s, and have a void? If you have that “void” then you have no does, or bb'sto shoot the following year.
We’ve been doing Herd Reduction for six years now and the harvest numbers remain good. How can that be?

I wasn’t paying attention, and screwed up,when I posted the dispersal comments, but of importance is the fact that you state; “young deer disperse.” I hope you will acknowledge that is “IS NOT” the fawn-bearing does that disperse. It is bucks.

You cited several examples of increased road kills. Your very own examples are what prove you wrong!
“If” there are fewer deer and more drivers, dogs running deer, construction altering their travel routes and “if” that is the reason for increased deer/vehicle losses then, consider this:
HOW COULD YOU BE CONTINUING TO KILL MORE OF A LOWER HERD AND THEN --- STILL CONTINUE TO INCREASE THAT KILL?
You can’t continually take more from less and the then, in following years, keep increasing that number of kills.

Those so-called “variables” you mentioned have always existed.
Our driver numbers have increased every year since cars were invented, with the greatest increases following WWII.
Our roadways are always being expanded and repairs being done, again, with the greatest highway expansion during the Eishenhower administration.
Dogs are not a new invention and in years past virtually every farm and many rural homes had dogs and they were not as well restrained as the laws today require them to be.
Deer are not stupid when it comes to dogs. Of course a dog can chase a deer onto a highway but deer immediately know when an area has dogs. If you are positively aware of dogs chasing deer it is your obligation to report it. There are heavy fines, especially so if it is so evident that these result in human-animal conflicts, causing accidents.
Why would deer be “running all times of the day?” Do they run and then come back to be chased again?
You claim deer numbers are “down” in your area but then, conveniently state that a farm near you has “decent numbers of deer.”

You really need to reassess your critique of Alt’s “similar habitat” approach. Your example is ridiculous. Of course, within any area there are going to be micro areas of varying terrain and development density.
Are you suggesting, as you described, we manage for each tiny neighborhood variance?
Incidentally 10-acres is not urban and farm country is not suburban.

Can you imagine three management units? One being 2 miles from you, one being 2 miles the other direction, (in your neighborhood), and one being 25 minutes from you?

How about state forests or SGL’S that are bordered by farmland and small towns? The variances you describe are all across the state in one form or another --- these units are set up based on “majority” typical.

You need to re-think what you are saying.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Ok just shut down all deer hunting in PA for 10 years. :D

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

For northpa

I never siad I wasn't seeing deer. I said for those who are not, they "may" have a legit bitch. As for this VOID, someof the so called top biologists said it did happen. They said all the young deer will disperse. The young males further than the females. How long a void, none of them specified! All I know about the deer I hunt is what they eat, their bedding area's and the best spot to place my stand to kill them. That's all I need to know. I just quoted what these men said that study deer for a living. The variables that play into deer collisions. What I should have also said, should they all count towards the number of deer we harvest? And for qaulity deer management as to when it started. Why does it need to be A STATE program to be reconized? I scanned a section from the book History of the Whitetail Deer, by: Leonard LaRue III.
If you have a problem with it, contact him.

CAN QDM WORK DOWN ON THE FARM?
Text and Photos by Leonard LaRue III
Fall 1969 was a pivotal time in my career as an outdoor writer. I traveled north to Quebec's Anticosti Island and south to Texas' famous brush country to hunt whitetails. Although the Anticosti hunt was excellent, it was the Texas trip that truly had a lasting impact on me.
Anticosti offered a beautiful setting and an abundant deer herd. Unfortunately, my expectations about the bucks' antlers exceeded reality. Few hunters who travel to this fabled island are selective about antler size. In addition, the island has an extended season and a liberal two-deer either sex limit, which means the typical hunter harvests two bucks. Consequently, Anticosti is not a haven for trophy whitetails. Though the hunting can be excellent no reputable outfitter will promise that you'll get the chance to hunt a mature racked buck.
Texas, on the other hand, was unlike anything I had seen before. The geography was much different from the heavily forested, picturesque Anticosti, but it was just as beautiful in its own way.
What especially struck me about Texas was the emphasis placed on deer management. I was fortunate to photograph and hunt on two of the state's better ranches, and the size of the whitetails was incredible. The philosophy on both ranches was to produce the highest quality deer herd possible, both in numbers and antler quality.
The Dean of Whitetails
While in Texas, I had the pleasure of spending time with Al Brothers, who many consider the father of quality deer management. During our time together, Brothers explained the benefits of quality habitat, a quality deer herd, and quality antlers. Needless to say, I received quite an education. On the plane trip home, my mind raced with all I had seen and heard.
After returning to New York, Brothers called me to ask what I thought of everything I had seen in Texas. It wasn't the last time I heard from him.
Home and Reality
After spending most of my life in western New York State, the Texas approach to deer management was quite an eye-opener. Although I had dreamed for years of a time when quality-racked bucks would be common in my home region, such thoughts seemed a bit far-fetched. The predominant hunting philosophy in the Northeast has always been to shoot any legal buck. Consequently, eighty to ninety percent of the bucks harvested during New York's annual deer season are just one and a half years old.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Gobbler. BULL!

No biologist would claim such an outrageous thing in the way you typed it.
If you killed every single doe in an area then the young may wander, looking for their mothers.
I’m not going to bother Lenny with such drivel. The last time I bothered him was to provide proof of cougar stats for some idiot who claimed there were cougars all over PA. Posts like this embarrass us enough, I don't need to point them out to him to make it even worse.

You referred to TEXAS. That “is” a state. You didn’t refer to private Texas ranches.
Anybody, anywhere can grow trophy whitetail bucks if they supplemental feed them daily and kill off all the unnecessary does.
It has nothing to do with a state that is bound by law to not provide landowners those abilities unless they are “deer farmers” who purchased the deer and own them and keep them in fenced and controlled circumstances.
No comparison at all!
Road kills “are” included in the figuring of deer mortality, plain and simple.

You may – or may not, notice that L L Rue III in no way suggest protecting does to achieve QDM. He “does” point to killing young bucks as not a good thing.
So, what you have posted is completely in keeping with PA PGC deer management practices.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Gobbler - Leonard LaRue is not a biologist, he's a writer and photographer. His doctorate is an honorary one.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

NorthPa pay attention to what you read. In my first post, I stated that Gary Alt was making claims that he and Pa. are going to be the pioneers of QMD. I said, he missed the boat.
That it started in Texas. Well, many-many others ARE giving credit to Mr. Al Brothers of being the Dean or Pioneer of QMD. Even though it was on a private ranch. Mr. Brothers was the first to practice QMD and he lives in TEXAS. Then others ranches in TEXAS started to practice his QMD. Then other outfitters started in different states. Then STATE programs started. But many gave CREDIT to Al Brothers who lives in TEXAS! as being FIRST! I'm sorry he hails from TEXAS and not Pa. And yes,Road kills “are” included in the figuring of deer mortality, plain and simple. I'm talking about the "TEMPORARY" spikes in roadkills. Like the highway construction. Are they taking into consideration that for two months, there was above normal traffic flow that caused an increase in roadkills or are they just looking at how many period. And someone else in this forum said they heard the VOID on Deer & Deer hunting. I"m not home to watch these shows. But I'm going to find out from someone if this statement was also made on TV. And I looked over my past
post's. When did I ever mention about protecting Does?

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

Tis you who needs to pay attention.

I never heard Alt say, at his seminars or on the video, that he PA and him would be pioneers of QDM.
That simply is not true.
For a fact, he often clarified; “this is “not a trophy program, but rather a program to bring a natural balance to the deer herd and to allow the habitat to recover toward achieving a healthier herd.”
You need to knock off the imagination and distortion of what actually is fact and quit making things up.

You obviously are a youngster and I understand the desire to appear to be knowledgeable, but modifying facts just ain’t a good way to accomplish that.
If you have no problem with the killing of does, then what is your gripe?

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

MeatHunter2
"Great" login name. I know Lenny is not a biologist. But has worked close with many of them for his writings. And he is one of the best photographers.

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

NorthPA
My points on my first post that stared all this bull between you and I are:
1.How hunters are bashing other fellow hunters when they talk about seeing few or no deer in their area's. And I said that some of the gripes are legit.
2. With a new article I read,written by a proclaimed top biologist in deer management, stated: in recent research he experienced a "TEPORARY" void of deer in an area when harvesting mature doe early. This is what I read, "FACT."
Not modifying facts. I posted this on behalf of the person who stated of not seeing deer.
3 Again, many are giving Al Brothers of TEXAS, being the pioneer of QDM "FACT."
4 My buddies and I went to see Alt once, he made the comment WE can be the pioneers on how deer should be managed, "FACT"
5 Yes roadkills should be counted into how we harvest deer. But should these non-normal variables that I mentioned also count, My opinion.
6 Management Units are to big!, my opinion
I hoped I cleared this up for you NorthPA

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

You Pa guys complaining abouthow many deer you can kill would flat out puke[:'(]if you looked at how many deer we can legally kill in Md. I know of 36, but you could actually kill 42 if you hunted allegany and garret counties with that?? Also if you happened to go to pg county its unlimited does!! Now thats quality deer management!! Haha[&:]

RE: kill all deer in PA
 

I don’t care about Texas QDM. That point was over-discussed.
I don’t care about what a so-called top biologist said, because I doubt that is what was really said, in the context you put it in.
Now you’ve change what you heard Alt said to “manage deer.”
Those variables you mentioned, “ARE” taken into the count.

I hope I cleared this up.
I’m going hunting.

How has this management worked out looking back??

WesternMdHardwoods
 

Pay attention to the guy from maryland. I hunted there for about 15 years, maybe longer. When Maryland went to the liberal deer slaughter, the hunting where I went was done in 3 years. In the beginning the herd did need thinning. I used to hunt Indian Springs and there were always plenty of deer killed there. The last time I hunted there was on a first day of rifle. Around noon time I heard 2 fast shots. That was it the whole day. The Doe tags used to be a lottery. I still hunt in West Virginia, and they have gone the same way. The WMA I hunt went from no doe tags to lots of doe tags. It slowed the buck kill down like crazy.
In PA I have seen areas go dead. Places you could always count on seeing doe have no sign of them and I am not talking 100 yards or less off a road. It is getting better. Nobody wants to hunt the mountains anymore, so it is taking the pressure off some of the deer. I did a slow hunt across one of the mountains here the last day of rifle and did not see a single hunter and did have a deer get up and sneak off on me. I don't know what it was, but I would not doubt that there were more that did the same and I did not catch them.

The thing that pisses me off is the way the Game Commission talks down to hunters as if we are retarded children. Over the years they have told plenty of lies and they simply deny it.
That aside, there are still plenty of deer in PA, they are just not accessible to most hunters.

I rnt tardid.

Is NorthPa's PC screwed up or is it mine?

YOU KNOW WHAT PISSED ME OFF THIS WEEKEND ABOUT SOME OF THE DEER HUNTERS IN PA??? IT'S THE SLOBS THAT STOLE MY TRAILCAM FROM ONE OF MY HUNTING SPOTS!! I wonder if that Hunter cares about QDM????

Hatchet Jack

I sometimes drive down to Bucks County to hunt. It does not surprise me. I wouldn't let dirty underwear out of sight in that County.

You no what? Someone did steal some dirty underwear from my line!!! LOL!! Your Spot on. I work the the DCO Warden in Bucks co and the stories he tells me about some of the CLOWNS out there is UNREAL!!!!!!

Hatchet Jack

One problem with your theory Mr. Plummer, Indian Springs has not and never had the liberal deer bag limits that are in place in all the counties east of Washington County.

You are misinformed. I was still hunting there when the new kill limits started. Indian Springs was included. When I first started hunting there the doe tags were a lottery and the hunting license was still displayed on your back. If I remember correctly, Washington County was split about in the middle. I never hunted the western area but you are right about less deer tags over there.