tsoc

Also please spare me the conspiracy theory of the evil biologists! Most "Trophy Hunters" fair just fine without any one needing to make it easier for them.

Steve863

I am not suggesting it's a conspiracy theory, although the facts ARE that QDM was started by biologists in Texas whose main concern was managing for trophy deer. Here is the link to their association. http://www.qdma.com/qdm/history.asp

When they talk about "quality whitetails" they are NOT talking about the quality of the deers fur or teeth. They are talking about the size of a bucks rack. That sounds like an emphasis on "Trophy" to me or anyone else who is being honest about what is really going on here.

tsoc

I am a relatively new (11/2 years) QDMA member.I don't know their particulars inside and out although I know that they continually emphasize,habitat first,animal second hunter last.They would also say that bigger racked bucks are a by product of QDMA not their primary intent.I am not naive nor am I a biologist so I cannot positively attest to those things.
I would say that my interest is sequentially the same Habitat first,animal second,me last.I have hunted in area's where there was a more representative age class of animals across the spectrum and it is so much more of an enjoyable experience to actually hunt under those conditions.
Antler restrictions have been a vast improvement over these last two years.In 2005 I saw 7 bucks in the archery season 3 of them were racked and met the 3 on one side criteria,all three in my estimation were 21/2 years old.I passed on the two of the three that I believe I could have killed.I did see 4 bears in the archery season and shot one of them.2006 I saw 13 bucks,10 of them racked and meeting the criteria of three on a side.I shot a sixteen inch wide eight pointer that I believe to be 21/2.My hunting wasa mixture of private unposted land and public land,same spots were hunted the two years.I am hoping this year to see some 31/2 year old bucks.The antler restrictions from my own personal experience are improving the hunting.I support other methods of accompishing the same thing.I am not looking to short change anyone else.I still strongly feel that everyone's needs can be met and be done in a manner that benefits all aspects.
I have pretty much given up my rifle sesaon in NY to hunt in Idaho.It is not easy to kill big deer out there by any stretch! It is possible though without unemployment,divorce,loss of your business etc.

tsoc

Bare in mind I had 11 0r 12 stands set in as many locations.I have a couple of consistently good locations,that have come from a lot of sweat and shoe leather.

jf5

Many, many pro AR people are concerned with overall herd health.B/D ratiosand agestructureare part of that health. You can't paint them all with the broad brush of greedy trophy hunters.Its simply not true.

QDM and Trophy deer mgt are not the same thing.

Traditional Deer Management
Under traditional deer management, bucks of any age or antler quality may be harvested and antlerless deer harvest is regulated to produce an abundant deer herd and/or to maximize total buck harvest. Under this approach, most bucks harvested are yearlings (1.5 years old), with few bucks surviving beyond their second year.
This management approach is typically the least intensive and sometimes allows herds to increase to levels that can damage the habitat. Depending on herd productivity and the intensity of buck harvest, the sex ratio often becomes heavily skewed in favor of females. In some herds, particularly those where substantial buck harvest occurs before the rut, this imbalance may result in some does not breeding during their first estrous (heat) period, or perhaps delay their first estrus. If does do not conceive during their first estrus, the next breeding opportunity will not occur until 28-30 days later. The doe's fawns will be born one month later for each cycle missed. Later-born fawns have lower survival rates, lower weaning weights, and poorer antler development as yearlings than fawns born at the appropriate time of year.

Quality Deer Management
Quality deer management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and resource managers in a common goal of producing healthy deer herds with balanced adult sex ratios and age structures. This approach typically involves protecting young bucks while harvesting an appropriate number of female deer to maintain herds within existing environmental and social constraints. A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding bestows an ethical obligation on the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional deer management.
Practicing QDM produces many benefits. Typically, the sex ratio becomes more balanced and the number (or proportion) of bucks in the older age classes increases. Often, more mature bucks are available for breeding, resulting in less stress on yearling bucks and an earlier, more-defined rut. In some cases, deer health and body weights improve due to improved habitat conditions, which also benefit many other wildlife species. The lower deer density also helps reduce crop damage and deer/vehicle collisions.
One obvious benefit is the increased presence of mature bucks and the exhilaration of observing their behavior. Many landowners and hunters receive great satisfaction from the increased involvement with their deer herd that QDM offers.
The benefits of QDM do not come without costs. Typically, large tracts of land are required to achieve maximum results. While defining a minimum size is difficult, 600-1,000 acres is a reasonable starting point in most areas. While QDM can be successful on smaller areas, cooperation with hunters on neighboring properties and unique management practices are required.
Participants must take an active role in management and maintain accurate harvest records to assess management progress and fine-tune management strategies. Harvest restrictions and rules, especially for young bucks, must be implemented and enforced. Where high deer populations already exist, initial QDM restrictions generally result in a reduced total buck harvest and an increased doe harvest. As such, QDM often requires a change in hunting practices and a new mindset.

Trophy Deer Management
QDM often is confused with trophy deer management. While the two approaches share several objectives, they also differ in many ways. Under trophy deer management, fully mature bucks with high-scoring antlers are the primary focus. Whitetail bucks typically attain maximum antler size between 5.5 and 8.5 years of age.
Producing bucks of this age and antler quality requires many ingredients not available to most hunters. Because some adult bucks have home ranges of 2,000 acres or more, large tracts of land, often 5,000 acres or more, are required. Because buck home ranges are not uniform in shape and size, few adult bucks live their entire lives on a single property, even on 5,000 acres.
The ability to control hunting pressure is paramount, especially on promising 2.5-, 3.5- and 4.5-year-old bucks. This requires considerable field-judging skill and self-control. Unless the herd is enclosed and supplementally fed, deer density must be kept low to allow optimum nutrition so bucks can maximize antler potential. This often involves aggressive doe harvests (even higher than under QDM) and intensive habitat management. Therefore, while trophy deer management is a biologically sound approach, it is not feasible in many areas and the associated costs outweigh the benefits for most hunters.

Steve863

I am not considering trophy hunters any greedier than some meat hunters who think they should be able to kill more deer than they really need. Greed & Jealousy DOES come into play too often in hunting, however. That is one reason why hunters in general can't seem to agree on much.

http://www.qdma.com/qdm/default.asp

Above is a link the QDMA's own definition of what QDM is. For the life of me I can't see how their definition can be perceived as anything other than managing deer for the benefit of hunters wanting deer with bigger racks. I am not starting a fight here or pointing fingers at anyone. I only am reading how they are describing it and to me it sounds like this is management for big bucks and NOT necessary for the benefit of an entire herd of deer which SHOULD be the ONLY purpose of a state game agency. Many people who don't necessary like hunting can accept it if hunting is done to put meat on the table and control deer numbers. I am just curious what they would think of legal hunting if they knew that the state agencies were following theories proposed by people who want the herd managed so they could grow trophy bucks? I don't think hunters and hunting would fair too well if the general public got wind of the news that the herds are first and foremost being managed to produce trophy animals for hunters to eventually kill. I am surprised the anti's haven't jumped on this yet. I guess they are too dumb for their own good.

jf5

Well,The differences posted are clearly defined between QDM and trophy mgt, as stated by biologists. QDM is not mgt for trophy bucks. I don't know how to say it any other way, its laid out right there. Andmany state agencies here in the northeast that arenot associated with QDMA or Texas ranches seem to agree: That its better for the deer and its habitat.

I can't change your perceptions.Those are yours.

ButI am not seeing many biologists arguing against QDM with science,only with social issues.

Asfar as anti's. Not part of the equation here. They don't want you to hunt anything. Theywill hardly notice achange in program, andI don't know any hunter that won'teat their 10 point.The perception of mgt for trophy bucks is yours.They will just see it as the same thing they hated all along...hunting.

With the increase in doe harvest required for QDM, I would say it hasplenty to dowith putting meat on the table.Passing 20 doe and shooting a spike is not more about hunting for meat than QDM. Yes I know its not so easy to get a permit as stated, but thats under current mgt practice. That too would have to change.

With fish, we have lengthand creel limitsfor harvest. These ruleschange all the time with theflexing conditions and environments as required to maximize the health of the fisheries. Why not deer??

The thing about NY, itsonly in a few zones. Its a test run. If itdosn't work, it can be changed back. Why denounceit before the results are in??

tsoc

My thoughts mirror jf5's in several area's especially so as it relates to antihunter's.They can spin any management philosophy there is to suit their agenda.It is just as easy to spin killing a disproportionate amount of the naive and wandering 1.5 year old bucks (perhaps easier) than to spin the more wary and elusive older bucks.
I appreciate the sincerety that every one comes to this discussion with.I truly believe we all can have what is important to us,with the implementation of different management practices.

SteveBNy

Bucks don't reach maturity until at least 4 1/2 years.
If your wish was for a more balanced herd by age why would you shoot such an immature animal?
Serious question not meant to be cutting or sarcarstic.
Trying to understand why only a little older is good enough.
I also did not direct my diner gossip quip at you. However the shot about my happy spike shooters could cause me to rethink that. This should not be personal for any of us sincere in our positions.

I was wrong on the 60% - it was aprox26% 4 point + per side,aprox 27 or 28% 3 point per side - rest less then 3 for a total of 53 to 54 % - hard to be exact with there graph.
Study done by CNYWhitetails aprox 1 1/2 ago to support a proposal for 7j, 7h, and 7f for mandatory AR based on width. Compiled from 3 years harvest reports in 7h - reviewed by state biologists
They are no longer on line - pm me your email and I will send a copy - no need for doubt - I try to be very careful in not putting out facts that cannot be backed up.

farm hunter

Steve863 -

Your dead wrong about your assumption about QDMA promoting Trophy racks.

You need to open up your mind a bit - and look at for what it is.
Even the QDMA Definition as proof you posted makes absolutey no mention of managing to increase antler size. You think it so much that you read it....... when its not even there!

The "Healthy Deer" notation - is a general term for a "Healthy Herd" - with good population dynamics and, as was stated by tsoc & Jf5, a good representaions of many age classes.

Personally I don't belong to QDMA. Though I do support many of their veiws and practice similar management as discussed by the organization.

Our hunting parcel is small - and we have several hunters - My goal is to take a 2.5 year old buck or better(regardless of point count) or buck of at least 6 points each year. While this is MY GOAL - I hunt with guys that will take the first buck that walks by, they are OK with that - and because its legal - I am too.I try to lead by example, and over time, our hunting group has become much better at passing up small bucks, and taking does.The quality of the deer we see has improved over the last 10 years. Not too many years ago - if we passed up a buck on opening day - wemight never see another. - Its not that way anymore.

FH