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How many hunters is is all right to lose?
In wartime, commanders make calculations as to how many soldiers will be lost to achieve some objective and then decide if the losses will be worth it or not.
Likewise, Pennsylvania's PGC Board of Commissioners decided on a course of action (HR/AR) that cost us hunters.In the last two years we lost about 9% and we will likely lose more until their habitat objectives are reached. I assume that they felt it was worth it. How many hunters do you think it is all right to lose--25%, 50%? I hope some of the PGC posters will also respond to this. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Really 80% could be lost as 20% harvest 80% of the deer but themoney lost would be too much.
10-15% is probably what could be afforded. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Let's not ..can a moderator stop this please.
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
They keep their crap going it will be higher. Do you go swimming in a pool that has no water in it?
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: archer58 Let's not ..can a moderator stop this please. If you don't want to read it don't open. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
This thread is intended tobash the PGC. These USP members cry "no deer" and complain about everything the PGC does.
How about you qiut hunting Mocha, and your USP friends and we'll see if anyone notices. I'm sure the PGC can do w/o the whiners. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
You better check out the real world. Got friend,s that (dont) belong to club,s organizations of any type these are your plain joe hunters and their clubbin the g/c also somethings wrong out there.
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
If your in the money making business as the g/c is 10%-15% is way to much to lose.If they the g/c was in the private sector they be looking for new jobs guarenteed![:@]
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
I don't disagree w/ that. What u need to understand is that habitat improvement/herd stabilization is a long term process. It's going to take a while to fix it. It took decades of overbrowsing by high populations to put our forests in the condition they're in.
Do u think the PGC wants to loose hunters. I don't think so. Yes, that's theirincome for funding wildlife programs. That being said, they need the hunter's support to accomplish their goals.Quit whining and think of some way to help. If you're not part of the solution ,you're part of the problem. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: archer58 I don't disagree w/ that. What u need to understand is that habitat improvement/herd stabilization is a long term process. It's going to take a while to fix it. It took decades of overbrowsing by high populations to put our forests in the condition they're in. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
"Mailman" said; "Really 80% could be lost as 20% harvest 80% of the deer..." If that is the case; and I have my doubts, it's obvious that those in the 20% would be glad to bear the extra burden ofpaying the increased cost. After all they are the 20% who benefit the most and fill their freezers with venison, so they would have no excuse whining about an increased licensing fee.
Sounds fair to me. In fact, if you harvest more than one buck and one doe there should be an escalating fee for additional deer taken. that might help to eleviate the money "shortfall" of the agency as well as improveopportunities for the other 80% to harvest a deer. One should keep in mind that this is supposed to be a SPORT, and was never intended to be a major "Food (meat)Supply" for hunters. Many hunters are "harvesting" several deer each year through multiple available antlerless tags. And if their argument is that they give the meat away, I have to ask if those types of hunters have aphobia for killing? |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Hahaha! This is so laughable.
Pennsylvania's PGC Board of Commissioners decided on a course of action (HR/AR) that cost us hunters. When one ignores all documented demographics and attributes trends to one single policy item (that many "agree" with) it is the flag of desperation waving wildly in the wind of a surplus of -- hot air! |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
This whole thread has been based on the flawed assumption that hunters numbers are declining in PA due to the deer program . The nationwide pattern as documented by the NSSF and others disproves that silly notion.
It has been proven that lack of time to hunt has been overwhelmingly cited as the most common reason throughout all the states for hunters who no longer hunt. Thre overwhelming reason for lack of hunter recruitment has been obstacles and barriers for youth getting started. The PGC's mentored hunt program is a step in the right direction toward fixing that. This thread is gonna go nowhere but into a flame war PGC bashfest. Especially with the posse of uninformed newbies and aliases that have very obviously been created by the few noisy USP types here. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
This whole thread has been based on the flawed assumption that hunters numbers are declining in PA due to the deer program . The nationwide pattern as documented by the NSSF and others disproves that silly notion. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Hunter numbers are dropping and it's do to alot of things,less deer being one of them.Is less deer the reason for the 9% drop?Not likely.
HCC,The deer herd did in fact take a huge dive in Treasue lakeafter the winters of 2003 and 2004 and our pellet count surveys back that up.We had a mild winter last year and a great mast crop which brought recruitment back up.Still,we had 120 hunters in there hunting deer this year and only killed 4 bucks and 33 doe.I have all the facts and data since we first dtated studying the herd in Treasure lake.We'll be having another pelllet count and browse impact survey on april 7.the public is welcome to participate so you can come up and give usyour assessment. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
I wish Wetern Md would impliment QDM:D
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Crazyhorse,I shoot multiple year every year and eat it all except for some jerky,sausage,sticks and bologna that I share with other people,many that are non-hunters.I'll gladly pay more for a lisence and even donate more to unsuccessful hunters like yourself.However,I feelevery hunter should be charged for every extra pheasant they shoot.Why should Ihave to pay for guys like you that are so desperate to kill something and lack the necessary skills to shoot a wild animal that they have to shoot a farm raised bird?Many of these guys can't even find the birds on their own,they need a dog to point them out.Talk about desperation to kill.
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
How many members does the USP have?
The answer can sometimes be so obvious.:D |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: DougE Crazyhorse,I shoot multiple year every year and eat it all except for some jerky,sausage,sticks and bologna that I share with other people,many that are non-hunters.I'll gladly pay more for a lisence and even donate more to unsuccessful hunters like yourself.However,I feelevery hunter should be charged for every extra pheasant they shoot.Why should Ihave to pay for guys like you that are so desperate to kill something and lack the necessary skills to shoot a wild animal that they have to shoot a farm raised bird?Many of these guys can't even find the birds on their own,they need a dog to point them out.Talk about desperation to kill. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: Mocha Java In wartime, commanders make calculations as to how many soldiers will be lost to achieve some objective and then decide if the losses will be worth it or not. Likewise, Pennsylvania's PGC Board of Commissioners decided on a course of action (HR/AR) that cost us hunters.In the last two years we lost about 9% and we will likely lose more until their habitat objectives are reached. I assume that they felt it was worth it. How many hunters do you think it is all right to lose--25%, 50%? I hope some of the PGC posters will also respond to this. Here are some stats comparing PA to other states in 1988 and 1998. State 1988 1998 PA 1.17m 1.06m TX 1.19m975K MI 957K926K WI 742K 737K Take whatever you want from this, but to blame the recent decrease in license saleson HR is yet anotherreach. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: DougE Crazyhorse,I shoot multiple year every year and eat it all except for some jerky,sausage,sticks and bologna that I share with other people,many that are non-hunters.I'll gladly pay more for a lisence and even donate more to unsuccessful hunters like yourself.However,I feelevery hunter should be charged for every extra pheasant they shoot.Why should Ihave to pay for guys like you that are so desperate to kill something and lack the necessary skills to shoot a wild animal that they have to shoot a farm raised bird?Many of these guys can't even find the birds on their own,they need a dog to point them out.Talk about desperation to kill. I will tell you that I hunted deer during rifle season on Game lands 12 and 36. I'll also tell you that I and my sons did not fill our 3 antlerless tags. We deliberately allowed 3 doe to survive. This area has few deer. Perhaps you should hunt it. There's at least 3 doe left there that I know of. Just think, you could top offyour freezerand treat your friends to snacks. As far as using a dog to hunt small game, I must admit that my French Britt is really something. Why this year while hunting Grouse he pointed a flock of turkeys. Damn fine point too. As far as my using a dog to help kill game, I have to assume that you use a longbow. I'm sure you don't own one of thosemodern wheeley compound bows with a minimal poundage hold. And god forbid anyone should be unsporting and use a release device. You don't have one of those do you? I'll bet a real hunter such as yourself still uses wooden shaft arrows and a basic 2 bladed broadhead,am I right? And, no sights for a real hunter like you I'll bet. And a real class "A" hunter like you wouldn't hunt from one of those modern, comfy tree stand; he'd be on the ground stalking and living up to the code of "Fair Chase." Right Doug? It's not my fault your not proficient with a shotgun. Eat your heart out Doug.  |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Take whatever you want from this, but to blame the recent decrease in license saleson HR is yet anotherreach.
Did you expect anything different from the Gloom'n Doom brigade? Rather than learning to think for themselves, or looking into things for some factual background on which to base theiropinions, they are perfectly content to be led around by the nose by those who are adept at making mountains outta molehills. Constant and repetitive preaching ofNegativism tends to attract those who are alwaysready to believe the worst and are ready to be exploited by those in the pulpit. Baby boomers make up the single largest demographic of current hunters. Many of us are now 60 years old, according to a recent study, the age at which most hunters start to hang it up. Losing hunters is not something to look forward to, but with fewer hunters being recruited to take our places, it appears to be an irreversible trend. Whenthose of us now in our 50s and 60sgot old enough to hunt, it was allwe looked forward to. No video games to occupyour time; no year-round kids sports like we have now;far fewercustody scuffles between mom and dad, or the dozens of other things competing for time spent afield.Mix in changingsocietalattitudes about firearms and hunting, a loss of nearbyhuntable land and many other factors, while we're hagglin' over loss of hunters and it becomes evident manyissues besides fewer deerare at work here. When you are inclined to blame everything on one agency to begin with, must make it much easier just to ignore all other factors and focus all ofyour attention on that one bogeyman, apparently? |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
I think the whole "license decrease" card being played by the USP and those opposed to the PGC is way off base. Here are some stats comparing PA to other states in 1988 and 1998. State 1988 1998 PA 1.17m 1.06m TX 1.19m975K MI 957K926K WI 742K 737K Take whatever you want from this, but to blame the recent decrease in license saleson HR is yet anotherreach. [/quote] This is exactly the point we're trying to get across. As you can see by these number's , liscense sales were declining even when there were an abundance of deer. HR/AR are not the only cause.no one said it was not. And other states across the country,including TROPHY deer states have had a decrease in sales also. Why is itso hard to admit that theHR is not the entire problem? You would have to be unable to count to see the trend in our country. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Here's another thought for u Bailey and CH.
The area here has had an increased amount of posted ground by private land owners i nrecent years. The same as most of PA.I'm sure you have heard complaints of "no where to hunt","too many hunters on public land". Limited access has driven many hunters to give it up. I also would have a tendency to believe that that has caused declining liscense sales across the country. When u put more hunters in asmaller area w/ fewer deer(HR for habitat improvement) decline in hunter #'s will occur. Pointers' numbers are an eye opener, aren't they? |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
As an out of stater, I will say this. The PGC program actually has me wanting to come back and hunt PA again. I am not alone either...
Also remember that hunters numers are declinging everywhere...and it has nothing to do with amount of game they are seeing. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Tell me John,what kind of success did you have hunting deer this year?Did you finally break your long,long streak of unsuccessfull seasons or failing to report a harvest.Face it John,you're bitter because you can't kill a deer and because the PGC doesn't stock enough tame birds for you to shoot.That's unbelievable.Thank goodness you have New Jersey and hunting preserves.
I don't shoot a stick bow but I do hunt animals that are actually wild and fairchase.My code of fairchase is actually fairly simple.I don't hunt animals behind a fence and I don't hunt animals that were pen raised on a farm.I have no problems with those that chose to shoot stocked birds but it gets old when they start complaining thatthey don't have enough to shoot.I killed three deerwith a bow,two with a rifle and one with a muzzleloader.I don't depend on a state agency to stock deer for me to shoot. Did you kill a deer this year John?How about a picture to prove it? My freezer is topped off as it is every year and there's still plenty of deer to go around on our public lands.People say there's few deer around here also, but I disagree.I saw more on public land on the last day of the season than I saw anywhere else I hunted this year. I find it ironic that you couldcharacterise someone's "need to kill" when you actually have to kill tame animals.Very ironic indeed. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: BaileyHill Can anyone state that recruitment is on the rise? Nope! Can anyone state that numbers are on the decline and be 100% certain deer numbers are not afactor? Nope Is the PGC doing anything to increase deer numbers where they need to be increase 'cause they let them slip too far/ Nope Though in some WMUs they are in a "holding pattern' How many other states can state that recruitment is on the rise?Maybea handful? Can you be 100% certain that deer numbers are a factor in the decline? Afterall, we had a decline from 1988 to 1998 and the was no HR. As far as deer, didn't allocations in 2G go from 52,000 to 19,000 in 2 years? |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: BaileyHill While I tend to agree with most you posted I for 1 surely cannot dismiss lack of quarry as part of the numbers tumble. In my extended family about 50% ofthem hunt only deer and of that group some have called it quits this pastseason. Not all of them are 55yrs old + a few were under 20..their reason is they're just tired ofseeing so few deer....note I said seeing few,not killing any. No problem for them to hunt a wk straight when they see deer,but boring when seeing so few. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Bailey , You are wrong AGAIN.
The PGC decreased doe tas in 2G a HUGE amount in response to hunter input. DIDN"T THEY??? And as jf5 said ...hunter recruitment is down all over the country. See Pointer's post again. They were declining in the "GOOD OLE DAYS" when deer were abundant. Explain that. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: BaileyHill ORIGINAL: archer58 Bailey , You are wrong AGAIN. The PGC decreased doe tas in 2G a HUGE amount in response to hunter input. DIDN"T THEY??? And as jf5 said ...hunter recruitment is down all over the country. See Pointer's post again. They were declining in the "GOOD OLE DAYS" when deer were abundant. Explain that. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: BaileyHill ORIGINAL: archer58 Bailey , You are wrong AGAIN. The PGC decreased doe tas in 2G a HUGE amount in response to hunter input. DIDN"T THEY??? And as jf5 said ...hunter recruitment is down all over the country. See Pointer's post again. They were declining in the "GOOD OLE DAYS" when deer were abundant. Explain that. I cant help but wonder... wouldn't the PETA gang be clever if they planted members here just to stir the pot and pit one group of hunters against the other. All these recent new members, all these posts intended to start flame wars between hunters ..... |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
It doesn't matter how many hunters the agency loses, they all will still have jobs. There's no incentive for them to care.
There can be no doubt because of poor resource management we have lost many small game hunters and recently many deer hunters. For Doug, Bob T. and that archery friend of Doug's I urge you all to spend some time hunting deer near Renovo and Coudersport; Then tell us how good the deer hunting is. Yo Doug, you can still top off your freezer, didn't the Commissioners extend the deer season in the SRA areas. Drive on down and quench your thirst to kill. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: BaileyHill hey BTBow ? for you ...if as you just said "archers aren't killing a proptionate number of deer" ...could they be part of the problem then??????.... If the GC is using hunters as a management tool like they claim,apprently archers aren't pulling their own weight then...you said it not me!!!.....also the GC might be better served then to open more gun seasons in Oct & Nov to aid in pre rut doe harvest seeing how archers aren't pulling their own weight!!!!!!!!!! On the other hand, your antics will probably get this thread locked a wee bit sooner than if you'd not spouted this drivel. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
For Doug, Bob T. and that archery friend of Doug's I urge you all to spend some time hunting deer near Renovo and Coudersport; Then tell us how good the deer hunting is. From the sounds of things, your qualifications as a guide seem to be lacking a bit so I'll continue to find my own spots thank you. Funny though, I seem to have no problem finding plenty of deer in the ANF where guysa lotlike you say things a lot like the things you say. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: Mailman29680 Really 80% could be lost as 20% harvest 80% of the deer but themoney lost would be too much. 10-15% is probably what could be afforded. If 15% is an accurate guess, IMHO we will probably be there this coming year or next. BTW, the US F&W Service just released the 2005 national sales figures. When Pa. lost 5.9% of its hunters, the rest of the country lost only1.4%. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
I was talking about from when AR/HR began, not from then when (with a smaller population) we had almost 1/3 more hunters in Pa. and a small game population second to none. Those days are gone and deer hunting drives license sales in the present.
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RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Mocha, our numbers here in PA aren't dropping any differently that the rest of the country. Since the AR/HR issue is specific to PA and we havent deviated from the nationwide trend, it stands to reason that the deer program isnot having a measurable effect.
We've seen a lot ofreference to hunters not buying licenses due to dissatisfactionwith deer numbers but those references have come from the same small vocal crowd with opinions but no real factual information to back up their claims. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter Mocha, our numbers here in PA aren't dropping any differently that the rest of the country. Hunting License Sales Generate Record Conservation Funding January 31, 2007 NEWTOWN, Conn.—A new report shows 25 states performed better than the national rate in sales of hunting licenses, tags and stamps in 2005. Nationally, license sales -- the main funding mechanism for state conservation agencies -- set a new record, topping $723 million. The 2005 figures, just released by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, show total sales rose 2.8 percent from the previous year, while the number of customers slipped 1.4 percent, from 14.7 million to 14.5 million. The total number of U.S. hunters, including both licensed and non-licensed, is estimated much higher than the 14.5 million acknowledged in the federal report. The National Sporting Goods Association calculates 20.6 million active hunters. The Outdoor Industry Association's latest estimate surpasses 26 million. And in a new survey commissioned by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) and conducted by independent firm Responsive Management, 19 percent of Americans—more than 50 million people—said they've hunted in the past two years. Depending on local laws, non-licensed hunters may include: 1. Young hunters who aren't yet required to buy a license. 2. Hunters at wingshooting and other game preserves. 3. Landowners hunting on their own property. 4. Lessees hunting on land where they reside. 5. Active duty military on leave. 6. Citizens who hunt only on free hunting days. 7. Senior citizens no longer required to buy a license. "Every hunter is an important asset to the firearm and hunting industry, but the number of license buyers is also significant because that's who contributes the most to habitat restoration, wildlife management and other conservation programs. Special excise taxes on guns and ammunition rose to more than $224 million for conservation in 2005, but license sales more than tripled that amount," said Doug Painter, president of NSSF. |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
ORIGINAL: Mocha Java ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter Mocha, our numbers here in PA aren't dropping any differently that the rest of the country. http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/NSSF_Hunter_Trends_Exec_Sum.pdf |
RE: How many hunters is is all right to lose?
Looking closer at that 1.4% lost figure which was 200,000 hunters lost, I can see that Pa.'s 50,000+ figure that year made up 25% of all lost hunters in America.Wow!
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