A Crack in the "Rock?"
01-30-2007, 11:47 AM
#81
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 23
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
ORIGINAL: Crazy Horse RVN
DougE (dce) it's very clear that 40% (or more) of Penn Fed members are not buying into the "Stay the Course" attitude and posture the group has been projecting for these pastseveral years, and continues to profess. Hunters are begining to see through the smoke and mirrors and they don't like what they see.
DougE (dce) it's very clear that 40% (or more) of Penn Fed members are not buying into the "Stay the Course" attitude and posture the group has been projecting for these pastseveral years, and continues to profess. Hunters are begining to see through the smoke and mirrors and they don't like what they see.
01-30-2007, 11:49 AM
#82
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 14
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
ORIGINAL: DougE
Crazyhorse,that article backed up exactly what I stated.Elk are primarily grazers.If you look at most of the trees they browse on,you'd see that many are pioneer species that directly compete with what the deer prefer to browse and eventually die off anyway.The elk don't do near as much damage to the habitat as the deer do and it's a proven fact.Elk do alot more digging in the winter time and often the deer are close behind to clean up the grasses that the elk miss.I know it goes against your warped conspiacey theories but the elk actually benefit the deer during periods of heavy snow.
Crazyhorse,that article backed up exactly what I stated.Elk are primarily grazers.If you look at most of the trees they browse on,you'd see that many are pioneer species that directly compete with what the deer prefer to browse and eventually die off anyway.The elk don't do near as much damage to the habitat as the deer do and it's a proven fact.Elk do alot more digging in the winter time and often the deer are close behind to clean up the grasses that the elk miss.I know it goes against your warped conspiacey theories but the elk actually benefit the deer during periods of heavy snow.
01-30-2007, 12:04 PM
#84
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
First of all,if you live in elk country,it's easy to see.I live on the edge of the Elk range and observe elk all year long.They primarily graze.If you hunt elk,it's easy to see.Have you ever hunted elk out west?You don't hunt them where they browse.You hunt them where they graze.Out west,you will find areas where they peel the bark off of the quaky aspens but that isn't done all year.It's done when the snow is deep and there's nothing else to eat.Furthermore,if you do the research,you'll find that elk are primarily grazers.Most of the year,they graze.When they create elk habitat,they make herbaceous openings because elk like to graze.They don't do browse cutting like they do for deer.Most of the species that elk do graze on are pioneer species which die out on their own once they get so big,like fire cherry.They also browse on striped maple and red maple,which competes directly with oak.Red maple isn't very browse resistant but striped maple is.Striped maple was once considered poor deer browse but they've recently found that in some areas,it's preferred.The problem with it is,it quickly grows out of the reach of deer.Once that happens,the elk can still reach it.
The facts are,deer and elk do not directly compete with each other.Their primary food sources are not the same and in fact Elk can help the deer in periods of deer snow because they have an easier time digging through the snow,leaving areas for the deer to feed.Talk to one of the elk biologists and see what they have to say.The head of the elk program lives just down theroad from me.If he's not busy,I'll see if he can give a more detailed explanation.
The facts are,deer and elk do not directly compete with each other.Their primary food sources are not the same and in fact Elk can help the deer in periods of deer snow because they have an easier time digging through the snow,leaving areas for the deer to feed.Talk to one of the elk biologists and see what they have to say.The head of the elk program lives just down theroad from me.If he's not busy,I'll see if he can give a more detailed explanation.
01-30-2007, 12:34 PM
#86
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
To my knowledge there hasn't been a scientific study donethat correlates how much damage the elk do compared to the deer.However the general consensusamoung the experts in the field is that the elk don't do nearly the damage that the deer do.I'm actually trying not to laugh as I type this but there isn't a whole lot of concern with a few hundred elk rubbing trees just like there isn't a whole loy of concern with a couple hundred thousand bucks rubbing multiple trees each year.I realizea USP member still probably thinks the reason behind HR is for the crazy assumption that deer are pawing trees but that isn't the case.Since you're the one insinuating that elk to more damage,the burden of proof is on you.Let's see the facts.
You need to do a little research.The elk herd around here is not more dense than the elk herd s out west.You're off your rocker completely on that one.Out west the Elk migrateduring the winter and many wintering grounds have many times more elk in one small area than we have in the entire state.
You need to do a little research.The elk herd around here is not more dense than the elk herd s out west.You're off your rocker completely on that one.Out west the Elk migrateduring the winter and many wintering grounds have many times more elk in one small area than we have in the entire state.
01-30-2007, 12:47 PM
#87
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 576
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
to bad you can't help in getting the dataI asked for
Is that the USP way or something? Try and beat everyone else to get work done? Assuming you are USP affliated.
01-30-2007, 12:49 PM
#88
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 23
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
ORIGINAL: LineHog
Pointers and T_in_PA3, to bad you can't help in getting the dataI asked for.
ORIGINAL: Pointers
Now Jim, how do you know he didn't just miss a key stroke?
Now Jim, how do you know he didn't just miss a key stroke?
Here's a quote from RMEF. Unless of course you feel RMEF to be part of the whole PGC conspiracy?
Favorite treats of elk in the East include red maple bark and acorns. They especially like to hang out in grassy openings in the hardwoods, near shady swamps and along streamsides. Without towering mountains like out West, elk in the east don't have to migrate up or downhill when the seasons change.
01-30-2007, 01:15 PM
#90
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,149
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Just recently spot lighted in a field near shawville.Both elk and deer were {grazing}in that field.If elk and deer both browse on oaks and red maples then they are competing for that food.An elk eats alot more browse then a deer.I've seen them browsing young red maples and oaks on plenty of occasions.And the trees were saplings which deer could easily reach.And acorns are also an important diet for the white tailed deer.They {rendell and debernliberal}feel elk will bring money via tourism that's why it's OK.Personally I can't figure out what tourists have against seeing a nice 8 or ten point but I guess eddie knows that answer.
After reading through this thread I have to assume the clubs being discussed are in fact losing members.And I'm sure deer management is a reason.HR has different meanings in different parts of the state.The forests of the DCNR want low numbers and it's going to stay that way.Case closed.Then there's the private landowners who don't want to be void of deer so they either post their land or show dissatisfaction.Then there's the public lands in the southern parts of the state that don't have the NC habitat problems but are seeing overharvests.So it just doesn't come down to the NC or state forest,HR affects other areas and that's also where you are seeing the complaints.It's just not about the NC.So unlike what some think or want to think there are places in PA that need more adjustments and are suffering from overharvests.If the clubs ignored this I'm sure members would get upset.
After reading through this thread I have to assume the clubs being discussed are in fact losing members.And I'm sure deer management is a reason.HR has different meanings in different parts of the state.The forests of the DCNR want low numbers and it's going to stay that way.Case closed.Then there's the private landowners who don't want to be void of deer so they either post their land or show dissatisfaction.Then there's the public lands in the southern parts of the state that don't have the NC habitat problems but are seeing overharvests.So it just doesn't come down to the NC or state forest,HR affects other areas and that's also where you are seeing the complaints.It's just not about the NC.So unlike what some think or want to think there are places in PA that need more adjustments and are suffering from overharvests.If the clubs ignored this I'm sure members would get upset.