New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

We all know do to pressure from hunting clubs, "SOME" DEC biologists and QDM practices in Penn.influencing some of NY's deer management ideas, that we will be into the 3rd year of the "antler restrictions" pilot program in a small portion of southern new york.These antler restrictions havecreated quite a debate locally where I live.
After talking to a NYS DEC officer from albany county, the possibility of state wide antler restrictionshas a strong chance in 08 when the pilot program expires. Has anyone heard of the same? I hope restrictions become a reality for NY's herd.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Yes,I actually heard the same... I know a DEC police officer and he told me the exact same thing the other night. It's funny that you wrote that !! He's stated to me that it will help the herd, but the hunters willn't like it for a few years when they start to see bigger deer(rack). Now,I like the idea, butI like to see deer in the woods when i hunt. Is this going to help or hurt I have no idea... but it's worth a try !!

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Antler restrictions are worth a try. They are not perfect but will enable more 1.5 year old juvinile bucks to reach their second birthday. The same DEC officer said 90% of the bucks harvested in NY don't reach their second birthday! WOW! That's sad.
I support such a measure and already practice 6 point or bigger while everyone else shoots up most of the bucks i pass up on our small farm in Greene county. I think it's time to harvest more does and manage hunters from killing small bucks. It will improve everyone hunting.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I heard the same story as you guys for the state wide antler restrictions.I think its a great idea as long as the does dont get slaughtered issuing too many doe tags.I hunt tioga county and the deer herd is way down from previous years.If it does happen i hope they do it the right way.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Wow! You don't know if it hurt but you still want to try?

For all supporters of mandatory NYS AR:

- Do you know what hygrading is?

-Do you know that over 50% of the 1 1/2 year old bucks in central NY are 6 pt or better?

- Can you tell me how targeting the best of the 1 1/2 bucks will help anything?

- do you know that in many states where AR has been tried the average rack size of older bucks has decreased? (See hygrading).

- Do you know that there are WMU's in NY that have no doe permits and many others are being reduced?

-Can you explain why this was such a great year in NY for record or near record bucks taken OUTSIDE the AR zoneswithout AR?

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

So lets go 4on aside. I would love that. I think the reason they have three per side is to give the cry babies a pacifier.

Maybe because there are so many OUTSIDE of the AR zones that are practicing QDM or AR's on their own.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

30% of the 1 1/2 are 4 pt or better - it will be good to target these how?
See hygrading.

Then why are mandatory AR needed.

By the way - do you want QDM or AR?trophy management?
They are not the same!

Doe permits are being reduced througout much of the state - eliminated in some wmu's. Combine this with mandatory AR/trophy mgmt and you end up with state sponsored trophy hunting - if successful, then land access will become an even bigger hurdle for the average hunter. How many hunters living in Pike County can hunt there anymore. Is this your goal?

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I for one think antler restriction is just another way for New York to try to make an ungodly amount of money from non-resident hunters. Pennsylvania supports AR but the hunters I've talked to say that they have yet to see any improvement in antler size.What they have seen an increase in is the amount of dead deer they walk up on that do not meet the legal number of points.Lets face it, when you are in the woods and you see a deer walking towards you that is not a monster buck it takes discipline not to pull up and shoot. A lot of guys see a deer not knowing what class of deer it is and shoot. Don't get me wrong, if I need the meat I will shoot what ever it takes to put meat on the table, But if I'm horn huntin' I let the littlins walk. Thats my right as a hunter and I don't want any one dictating what I can or cannot shoot!

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

What mite be better is to use rack width, in areas with good genes and food some of the 1 1/2 old deer can have 6pts or better. Maaybe some thing like 12 to 13 in. width. Rich

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Just curious - did you read my posts?

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I am in favor of antler restrictions.If you do what you have always done you will get what you have always got.If they want to restrict it to spread to prevent high grading than that'sfine with me.I saw strong evidence this year that antler restrictions allowed a number of 1 1/2 year old bucks to make it 2 1/2.With some patience and self discipline we can have some much better hunting.
This is my opinion,I am not a biologist,just a guy who hunts his butt off every year and I know what our woods and mountains hold.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I hadn,t heard it till now ??
I,ve been letting smaller bucks spikes, 4 points and 6 points walk for years now .
Yes I,ve seen a few on the hanging pole of my neibors .
Kinda s$$$s but its every hunters choice .
I agree on letting then grow for a few years to give them the chance at a desent rack .
As far as making it a law ????
I think the DEC and or Law makers think well have boone and crocket bucks running around in a couple years .
I dont believe it because there are alot of hunters out there that dont like playing by the rules and will never eat all the deer they kill .
If it comes into effect I believe it might discurage future sportsman .

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I'm all for it!! I have let the little ones walk in hopes of seeing a
"larger buck" for years now, and gues what, yep, I have been eating my tags!! Do you know why!! The "other guy" just wants to fill his deer tag with the very first Legal buck he sees, because he is a meat hunter!!
So that small 4pt or spike that Ipassed on, gets blown awayby the guy over the next ridge because he just wants to fill his "Meat" tags!!
So tell me, how are the small bucks going to ever get bigger with that kind of mentality in the woods!! By placing antler restrictions, they now havea better chance of making it!! Again, I'm all for it!!:)

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I'm with you SteveBNy! As far as I'm concerned, the arguments for AR are merely diversions and excuses to simply advance the single minded goal of making it easier to kill a big rack.

"BWAAAAABWAAAAAA... I let that 4 point go and that guy shot it...BWAAAAABWAAAAAA BWAAAAABWAAAAAA... he should have let it go too so I can get a big buck...BWAAAAABWAAAAAA ...please DEC make him stop... sniff sniff ... I want a big bu..u..u..u..uck..."

Meanwhile, amidst the whining, trophy bucks continue to be taken all over New York State!

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Sylvan - what kept you!:D

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Quote:

---

The "other guy" just wants to fill his deer tag with the very first Legal buck he sees, because he is a meat hunter!!
So that small 4pt or spike that Ipassed on, gets blown awayby the guy over the next ridge because he just wants to fill his "Meat" tags!!

---

Darn them,hunting for their own reason and basically hunting for the original reason people hunted.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Sure in the meanwhile trophy bucks get taken in our state, especially in certain locations of the state, but think about how many hunters go out on opening weekend. During the weekend and the rut, those deer have problems.....someone will obviously get a slim chance to wack a big trophy buck, right?

Where I live almost every spike, fork horn, 5's small 6's get wacked the first week. I literally passed up 8 different bucks on opening weekend and then finding out only 2 made it. We have deer cam pics of all the bucks,we scout and bowhunt in the same area, we know what bucks areout there and quality/age structure sucks! Like i stated earlier, 90% of the bucks harvested in our state don't make their second B-Day.

It's sad when we have to count on the current button-bucks to be our bucks for next season. If you need meat, harvest a doe-common sense boys!

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

According to the study done by cnywhitetails for their proposal for 7f,7j,7h, the figure is closer to 70%.

And what dot the hunters get to hunt in the WMU's that have few or no permits? Only the bucks AR determines are trophies?
I know hunters in 7j(high probable) that did not get one this year.

Charlie hit it here.

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I have mixed feelings on this whole ordeal. I was glad the DEC has approached it slowly withpilot test WMU's first.
I personally have gone through stages ofpassing on smaller bucks, in hopes of seeing more larger bucks. I didn't noticea big difference, but other hunters I know were shooting whatever, and ones I'd passed. So I then gave up the idea. This yr. I was lucky enough to harvest a nice buck during archery season. I wasn't purposely hunting a large buck, but setup where I believed a few nice bucks we had on camera were traveling, and hitting alarge active scrape. It paidoff. Since then I've been reconsidering this whole antler restriction thing, andconsidering goingback to passing smaller bucks. I was also approached by anew adjoining property owner whose planning on the doing the same, and hoping others in the area will follow his footsteps. If I do it, it'd depend on my other hunting partners feelings as well. Its their choice on what they'd like to harvest, so who am I or anyone else to decide that!
They say hunters go through stages throughout their hunting lives. I've harvested so many smaller bucks over the yrs Ireally had the taste for a nice one. Now its in my blood! Buteither way I just enjoy being in the outdoors, and enjoying all the experiences I come across while hunting. Whether I get shots or not if I see deer or have a new experience while hunting I go to bed with a smile on my face!
Now I'm a father, and have sons entering the hunting world. As they get older I'd like them to have the same opportunities I had. Its tough to expect others that haven't yet done what I have in the woods to be restricted in their efforts. I don't find it fair for the hunters that are young, or less experienced in the woods to be restricted to hunting the same larger animals experienced hunters are pursuing. We all know large bucks exist under the present system. Maybe not as many as we'd like, but they are there. They are possible to harvest as I discovered this season.
My main reasons for AR or agood QDM program would be for the health of the herd itself, and not personal large antler dreams. I took some deer mgmt in college. Although that was back in the 80's. I believe basically larger bucks do most of the early breeding. This allows for May & June born fawns, which gives them the extra month to grow & better survive the upcoming winter. If this was in place, perhaps the DEC wouldn't have to depend so much on winter kill numbers from yr to yr. in determining permit quotas for each WMU.I know its not all that simple. But I think the healthiest deer herd possible is what the DEC should/could be trying to accomplish.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

The basic fact remains that no biological benefits to the deer herds will be realized through higher AR or a QDM approach. Back up claims with hard, solid science. No one has done that, and the Region 9 Biologist pointedly stated that no benefits to the herds would be realized, and instances of paoching could very well increase while driving away hunters due to loss of opportunity.

In order to manage the herds using higher AR or QDM, methodologies and metrics for determining herd sizes and establishing harvest goals would all change dramatically, voiding historical data because the info we have archived becomes invalid. In order to show any success at higher AR/ QDM approaches, one must have the detailed information that we quite frankly DO NOT HAVE.

Educating hunters to pass on smaller bucks is what needs to be done. Passing a law will screw the pooch.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Some people don't want to be educated because they are blood hungry just to drop whatever comes along. Many have changed through education and watching hunting television programs where they practice AR/QDM on "teenager" bucks. I have to say watching the Outdoor Channel has effected how I hunt and pass on deer.

Laws restricting the harvest of small juviniles and arresting law breakers is sadly the only alternative to make things like mother nature intended.

Here in Greene county, we couldn't harvest does during rifle. Didn't bother me a bit. I just hunted does and meat with the bow and muzzleloader. One guy that doesn't hunt with a bow was upset because he uses just a rifle so I gave him one of my bow kills. he's actually going for his bowhunters safety coarse next year. A new bowhunter. It worked out good!

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Ok. Now we are getting down to the "meat" of the issue. This year the harvest numbers are on par with last season's, bucks about the same statewide and does slightly higher, which as expected due to the increase in DMP issuance. Changes in the DMAP and DDP programs which were implemented this year will take another year or two to bear fruit.

The most stunning thing about this year's harvest is the number of mature bucks that were reported. We had a far higher number of 130 - 200+ class bucks harvested, especially from WNY and CNY. I would bet the number of mature bucks taken from ENY was up, too. I am interested to see the harvest figures in the two original pilot AR WMUs in Region 3 to see if harvest numbers increased (bucks) significantly. I have been hearing otherwise. The other two WMUs should NOT have been added this year. A pilot program is just that, and the nothing gets determined after one season. We'll see some seriously diminished returns from those two WMUs this year, but what we cannot readily determine is how many hunters actually hunted these areas, vs prior to pilot program introduction.

But the "meat" of the issue is enforcement. Exactly how will enforcement of the new AR happen, and at what cost? We already know the DEC is struggling with mandatory game reporting. Check stations were poorly visited this year by NYS hunters, with possible exception of CWD containment check stations in Oneida County. ANd, we are having a hard enough time enforcing existing laws against poaching and "group hunting", let alone proper tagging/ recycling tags and the like.

So, do you know how the enforcement will happen and how much it will cost? FUrther, does anyone know how much it will cost in dollars, time value and historical data loss (different metrics invalidate historical numbers) to rebuild the reporting and harvest goal-setting procedures?

I'll bet you cannot answer that one, because no answer rightnow exists. Yet, I think we can agree this potential move is not without some significant costs. With the CF suffering, and despite the push to add a .01% surcharge to ALL OUTDOOR EQUIPMENT/ GEAR to bolster the CF, we haven't gotten that money and we are already looking at spending a very large sum of money on this new approach. That spend hampers our ability to buy and conserve lands, improve habitat, improve data reporting, hiring more personnel, etc. Considering the fact that ZERO biological benefit exists to the herds when higher AR or QDM practices are adopted, it seems to be a very expensive proposition, indeed. Not to mention it will be completely ineffective.

Enforcement of existing laws would go a long ways than writing new ones, adding unnecessary costs to the CF, screwing up the reporting foundation, while not hiring the manpower needed to enforce the laws and handle the reporting needs.

Education is the key, as well as enforcement of existing laws. WHat is happening with the AR crowd is pushing for symbolism over substance, nothing more, to feel "better". Trouble is, the "feel better" desire is way too costly and completely unnecessary. This year's harvest of mature bucks proves this 100%.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I understand what you are saying but imagine the trophy animals that would be taken if EVERYONE practiced alittle restraint. The potentials would be much greater and we would see more bucks in the woods. There will always be poaching and lawbreaking from low-lifes but AR are worth a try. If everyone has to play by the "antler Restriction" rules then hunters that illegally take smaller buck probably will be more apt to get arrested. Why, because hunters that are obeying the law will get pi@* and call them in. This very thing happened last year in 3J wmu. It's worth a try and I'm already doing it, why could we all? Hasn't cost me more money, licenses go up every other year. So what if it costs the state more. I love to hunt deer and it's worth it to me.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I'm not a huge proponent of AR in Pa but I'd rather have them than not.I don't see them making a huge differance in the number of big bucks but you definately see a higher percentage of deer making it in to another age class.More importantly,it forces hunters to slow down and be more sure of their target.I don't know what the long term results will be like but the short term results are good enough to see what happens a little longer.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Its worth it to you personally, so I suggest you fund it personally. We have no clear cost analysis and I submit it is far more important in the scope of hunting to secure more public lands and access to hunting lands, and spending money on habitat improvement and quality land management practices than it is to retool a deer management plan that will deliver zero biological benefits to the herd as a whole.

What you do not seem to see or realize is that the Conservation Fund is where the $$ will come from. It is already strapped as it is, and considering the fact that 51% of the CF $$ goes to pay for FRINGE BENEFITS of State Employees, what good will it do for hunting. DOesn't address habitat change. Doesn't address protecting open spaces from developers and greedy Counties wanting more revenues from property taxes.

I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying holds zero water, offers zero benefit to hunting across the board. No, it only appears to satisfy your selfish desire to see a trophy buck behind every tree, closer to your stands.

I apologize for getting on you hard, but, quite frankly the cost of implementing a more restrictive AR is not justifiable considering the end results. If a biological benefit to the deer herds existed, you would have a point. Our number 1 responsibility is to the game animals, the resources, NOT our own personal desires for larger bucks.

Rich Davenport
Recording Secretary Erie County Federation of SPortsmen's Clubs
Member NYSOWA
VP/ Editor WeLoveOutdoors.com
Member - NYS Assembly Taskforce on Hunting and Fishing

(just so you know who you are corresponding with)

Incidentally, I am a bit grouchy today, as I am now contending with the latest regulations proposal changes the DEC is currently pushing concerning VHS. And this is getting messy, and the clock is ticking, so I do apologize if I beat on you too hard.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

DoctariAFC,

Keep up the good work and have a Happy New Year. Glad to know your involved in theseissues.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I've said it before...The way it is now if a 4 point walks under the guy who's not interested in participating in the "let em go so they can grow" philosopphy he has the option of shooting it. If a 4 point walks under the guy who feels that's what it's all about then he has the option of passing. What could be more fair, or more republican (little r)? As more and more hunters adopt and apply AR out of personal choice (and they are) it will become the defacto state law but at the same time keep the diversity of options open for all...I just can't see forcing a one size fits all philosophy down everybody's throat. If my chances at a wall hanger are somewhat reduced because my neighbor shoots a 4 point then fine. If he's happy then I'm happy for him. After all, if he shoots a monster my chances are also reduced somewhat now aren't they? I really don't believe thinking that what somebody else shoots is my loss is a healthy way to look at hunting. I believe individual choice regarding AR is of more value to deer hunting in NYS than having a few more trophies running around. Besides, the big ones are out there and they're all over the state. Making it easier totake one imo only devalues how special it is.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Doctori-Don't worry my feeling aren't hurt. I've been pretty easy on this subject and have refined myself from getting emotional and worked up about this subject.

My whole family and close frieds are employed by law enforcement agencies, BCI,state troopers, local cops, DEC Game warden(retired) myself a simple school teacher but why do we need all these funds to carry out a simple law of "don't shoot deer with 3 points or less"???

Why must we worry about a Conservation fund? I'm all about saving land and providing sportman with hunting public lands but the majority of us hunt private property.....we can care for the deer better than the state collecting more tax dollars from us will.

All the state has to do is declare the law"AR" or what have you, then enforce their law. If any money must be spent because of the NEW AR law then hire additional conservation officers to arrest the guys who disobey it. Because this will definitely be needed...unfortunitely. I don't know why all this money has to be spent for introducing a simple hunting adjustment.

Put the AR law into place then enforce it, shouldn't cost hunters any more except maybe hiring more game wardens. Maybe I'm stupid and don't see your insite on this matter.? The end result will be an older age structure on bucks even if it only means 2.5 year old bucks and a closer buck to doe ratio which is healthier and beneficial to a deer herd.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Obviously a touchy subject at best! I am just tired of hunting my tail off to kill a 2 1/2 year old eight pointer.For the most part the only folks around here 3a and 3c that "consistently" kill big bucks are the people who camp high in the mountains.They wont see many deer but there is a greater liklihoood they will see a buck that has a few years under their belt.Other than the mountain hunters it is all about access (isn't it always)If you have accesss to prime ground you will have more opportunities at older age class bucks.
In the area's I hunt I saw a dramatic difference in the number of 2 1/2 year old bucks i saw during this pastarchery season.Antler restrictions have most definitely made a difference.
There are many challenges with this.I for one don't believe that the DEC can manage precisely enough.The circumstances vary by unit,very often area's within the same unit are vastly different.The farmland of western NY is a whole different situation than the adirondacks or where I am,2 hours north of NYC,more and more residential sprawl,huge anti hunting sentiment,decreasing amounts of land to hunt,no logging on state land which translates to over mature forests,no browse,no cover.The effect is to push deer down in to the 5,10,20 plus acre residential area's thatcan't be hunted typically for a variety of reasons.
I am very fortunate to rifle hunt whitetails unguided every year out in Idaho,where the natural elements of their wilderness and their population density contribute to a much more balanced deer population across the age classes.When I come home after my ten days out there,I "hardly" even feel like hunting at home.It is not easy to kill big deer out there but at least it is possible.
If I spent ten days up high in NY I would kill big deer most every year (at least I believe I would).I think it comes down to what is a reasonable expectation in having an opportunity to kill a better than average buck.As someone who works at it very hard on an all year round basis I don't think my surrounding units are there.
I am not faulting anyone's opinion here,I am just stating my own.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I hunt units 3C and 3J almost exclusively. I absolutely have noticed a difference in the number of mature bucks I have seen. There is no doubt in my mind that the AR's are letting a few morebucks mature. On the other side of the coin I can say that in the last two seasons I have never seen fewer deer in25+ years of hunting these units. I think there is a real lack of participation in the reported harvest. My opinion is that since the DECALS system has been established far fewer harvested deer have gone reported and the DEC believes there are more deer inhabiting these areas than there actually are.

I have no problem with the DEC implementing the statewide antler restriction. Bring it on.

s6

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

tsoc,
I can relate to what you said about hunting your tail off just to possibly get a chance to harvest a 2.5 year old eighgt point. It's realy sad. Like I usually tell my wife..."I'm going to take my gun for a walk."

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

If the DEC places restrictions on buck/rack sizes, who's going to police this policy?
Although I live in NJ, I hunt NY quite often. I've only seen DEC near Roscoe conducting roadside deer checks. Most of the land hunted from what I can see goes unpatrolled.
Will this be done on an honor system? Does everyone really call in and register their kills?
I have witnessed many deer being shot, skinned and quartered before they even reached the vehiclethe guys were driving. They take the deer to the cabin/lodge, do the cleanup and quartering and stuff it in the cooler for the ride home.
I can't imagine how this would work in such a large state with such a diversity of roads and open areas.
I'll be curious to see how you gents from NY continue this forum and where it ends up after you receive more info from the feds.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

It's much easier to police and enforce antler restrictions on a statewide basis. When only a few DMU's have restrictions in place hunters can literally shoot an illegal buck in a restricted DMU, tag it andillegaly fill out the tag for a DMU that has no restriction. I'm certain this happens frequently in the 3C and 3J areas. In one particular are along the western border of 3c where I hunt the restriction applies to one side of the road and not the other! You figureout what's gonna happen if a guy shoots a buck with less than 3 legal points on one side, and he's on the eastside of that roadway! With a statewide restriction in place if you have in possesion abuck that is illegal , well then it's.......just that.

s6

s6

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Mandatory statewide even though areas vary widely throughout the state and most don't see the need for trophy management?
Mandatory statewide even-though this was the best year ever for big bucks in many areas?
I asked early - do all you trophy management advocates know what high grading is?
I also asked several other questions of the trophy managers - points ignored all or in part by them.
I guess if you present points no one can counter, they must have merit.
Threw education and example, more ARE choosing to pass on smaller bucks voluntarily!
Want bigger bucks- let the small one go and let others make the same decision.
Big bucks should be something special to be earned if that's what you want your hunting to be - not something behind every tree(exaggeration) because hunting has been defined by a few.

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

SteveBNy,

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. You made points that perhaps nobody cares to argue. I DO know what high grading is. Perhaps your looking for a pat on the back?

s6

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

No pat - just want to know why you wish to have theherd be subjected to the risk because you need to have TV show bucks to hunt.
I keep hearing AR is for a healthier herd - I want to have someone as wise as yourself who understands high grading show me how it would healthy or good.

Yes everyone has a right to their opinon.
I have many and many of them have been changed over the years when someone has pointed out their flaws and I realized facts would not support them - sign of an open mind, I like to think.
Show me flaws in mine and back yours with facts and I am more then willing to listen.


Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

I personally do not believe in ARs . I would not kill 1 1/2 yo spike or fork now,but my 1st deer was a spike.I would not want to deny a novice hunter that joy. Thats what hunting is about - take the deer that make your heart pound & eat it! The DEC should not be in the trophy biz.Besides there are alot of cowhorn 4 yr olds out there - should they not be harvested?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

NYRACKADDICT- EXACTLY!!

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

ok, what is high grading?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Looks like a majority favors the idea...atleast on this thread. Then of course always a few naysayers. Looks like a Pa thread;)