douge, no use trying to get thru to you..who trapped for 50 years in western clinton, me or you?who was out in woods all time,year roundin clinton county for 50 years,you or me?

who has belonged to sportsmen clubs from time it was small and we got it going here in western clinton county, you or me?

who fed deer ,cut browse,ate dinner ,drank beer,went to campwith wco for years agoin western clinton county,you or me?

who had camp and still do and friends in camps in western clinton county for 50 years??you or me?

who came from a great hunting family, 9 uncles ,all hunters,all went thru depression and deer hunted,turkey, rabbits etc..

dont take this as insult, i would never be a smarty pants, but if you were going to hire a QUALIFIED PERSON FOR JOB,would you use the above in your decision on who most likely QUALIFIED to know what was and now is in woods of clinton county?

or ,would you hire someone who does not live, work,hunt regularly,has friends, knows people, good background from family in that county?

personelly, i would want someone QUALIFIED..that my friend, is ,well, hmmmmmmmmmmmm,i wonder ?

deerfly, i had to think back when the deer started to really go down in CAMERON COUNTY,wykoff/montour rd area..

you are right..i think it started to get bad about 1974..before that in 1960/1970, oh my, deer that was there..you could ride that MONTOUR rd at 8am in morning,deer season, and see 50 deer easy..tracks all over rds..

most of deer were on those pipelines,now, if you see deer on pipeline, its something..

you have crews now,that i know, that drove for deer this year..some got 2 deer for 20 in crew..

in 1970, in CAMERON COUNTY,those 20 guys would get 20 doe..this has taken toll on doe in that county..same in other countys..it was not near as bad until all these doe permits started a few years ago..

those crews up there have been replaced by,TREESITTERS,ROADHUNTERS,both deadly on cleaning out doe..

you have lost buck hunters and replaced with doe/fawn hunters..time will tell, i will be dead, i believe and hunting will not be anything of improvement..

as long as hunters kill FAWNS,as i am seeing and small doe,i cant see hunting be anything to get excited over..

I certainly wouldn't hire a guy that trapped for 50 years,while drinking beer in clinton county who claims coyotes just appeared during the last 8 years.

Deerfly,It's true the herd was kept under 21 dpsm in Cameron county for probably at least 20 years.Had the habitat been healthy to begin with,you'd probably see some good regeneraton.However,when the habitat is already stressed,it takes alot less deer to further impact it.The one area where I hunt was timbered in 2001.This area is almost strait up and down.It's so steep that they hauled the logs off the mountain with a helicopter.It's way too steep to get adequate hunting pressure and a sufficient deer kill.You can really only hunt one small bench below the top and the top of the mountain itself.The overstory on this mountain is mainly chestnut oak,red oak and white oak.Despite having an oak dominated overstory,there is zero oak regeneration to be found and no stump sprouts have survived.The only regeneration occuring is some striped maple,black birch and red maple,which is getting harder to find.The habitat is so poor in the surrounding area that the deer concentrate in this area once all the mast is cleaned up and eat everything in sight.Once the habitat is in poor shape,it's very hard to any improvements unless the deer herd is drastically reduced.

Did you ever hunt in Cameron county?Alot of the land,especially in the southern halfis almost strait up and down and very difficult and costly to timber.

The truth still remains.It takes fewer deer to further impact poor habitat.

That's what I just said.

I'd love for you to take a weekend and come out here.I promise you won't regret it.

I remember hunting Cameron County in my youth. The forest was desolate back then (25+ YEARS AGO) and dead. I dont remember exactly where we hunted but I remember driving back dirt roads, past beaver dams and parking. Then we walked up a logger road up a steep, very steep mountain that was flat on top and very expansive. I NEVER saw a single deer, turkey, squirrel, rabbit or even any birds. The only thing I remember seeing then was a vulture. The place was no-man's land and devoid of life. I was kind of spooked about the whole place, especially when my Dad posted me in a spot and then left me for awhile. The place was depressing to be at.

You know, the mountains of Idaho are pretty darn steep also. Your not going to believe this, but having been there myself to see it I can tell you that they timber those very steep mountains.

I guess Idahoans must be better at timbering than Pennsylvanians.

Doug, would you please tell us why the PGC hasn't implimented the proven methods of selective cutting in any other Game Lands as described in their Grouse Study that has been going on for some 31 years and has proven to be effective in increasing Grouse numbers, rendering a profit from that method of timbering as well as being beneficial to all Game and wildlife?

Dick (gosh, I used that bad word kicd) Boddenhorn (Game Warden) claimed that they (the agency) had implimented this program in other Game Lands, but when I asked if it had been done on acreage such as on Game Lands 176 (some 2800 acres) he didn't have an answer.

Where did I say clearcuts were poor habitat?Clearcuts are great for a while but eventually they turn in to pole timber but you knew that.Large clearcuts can regenerate at higher deer densities but you can only clearcut so much timber so you don't end up with too much pole timber.

I can show you areas that didn't regenerate 5 or 6 years ago when they were cut but now there's phenominal regeneration when they cut inthose same general areas.I can show you several areas that were cut and never regenerated until they erected a fence several years later.

I can also show you regeneration in areas under amature canopy that wasn't there until they fenced it.These areas have a very low deer density and they dodn't regenerate until the put a fence up.DCNR does this to get advanced regeneration started prior to a timber sale.This proves that in poor habitat,even a low deer density will impact the regeneration.That's what happened in Cameron county.

Crazy,I can show you several areas on SGL 93 and SGL 77 where they have implemented habitat improvements for grouse.In some cases,they rotate the cuts every 10 years so they aren't making any money off of the timber.They're simply doing labor to benefit the wildlife but that costs money.In fact in many cases,their isn't any commercially vaulable timber to take out.

On coyotes,going from past experience I think the populations can change pretty quickly.I know in our area of Clearfield they were pretty thick up until that last two years.Now they seem to be thinning out.The rabbit numbers sure took a nose dive.I realize other predators kill rabbits but once the yotes really populated the rabbit numbers took a dive.I know they were here for a number of years but about 8-10 years ago they really took off.