I believe you are doing a fine job Cougardeville. The only debatable statement you make that I can see is that there are indeed cougars present. You are not one to purport false information. Of all the pics of bobcats that were said to be cougars, I have seen you call them as they are, every time.
The map would not come up on my computer, BTW.

small cat...not taller than any of the plants...very small

nice pictures.... we got some here in Connecticut...startin' to become a real problem



-Travis-

DougE.....you also said :You also apparently have no clue what it takes to get a law changed in Pa.

I may not know all what it takes to change a law, but I know a good place to start. These are 25 questions, I and two others wrote to the US Fish and Wild life Agency. These are the questions we asked, the click link will get you to the answers. I think we covered a lot of what is talked about, and many rumors. I am waiting for some of the answers to come from the state of New York and Pennsylvania. The Federal agency was promt and polite in answering our questions.













Questions for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Agency

We have several questions that have never received direct and clear answers. We presented these questions as a list to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Agency.

The answersfrom them are on the next page as scanned images of their letter.











Question 1 -

[ul][*]
What is the mountain lion law in the United States and what are the penalties for violating that law? How does that law affect the residents of New York and Pennsylvania?

[*]
Why are some states permitted to have a hunting season on cougars and other states are not?
[*]
Are cougars, pumas, and mountain lions different names for the same animal?
[/ul]
Question 2 -
How many different subspecies of mountain lions are legally recognized by the United States Federal Government and in what states do these subspecies reside?

Question 3 -
Does any other federal agency have any legal jurisdiction over the regulation of mountain lions other than U.S. Fish and Wildlife?

Question 4 -
Does the Endangered Species Act affect the states of Pennsylvania or New York with regards to the regulations on mountain lions, and if so, in what way?

Question 5 -
Is it legal to ship, sell, transfer, and or trade mountain lions between western states agencies and eastern state agencies such as the New York Department of Environment or the Pennsylvania Game Commission?

Question 6 -
If it is legal to ship, sell, transfer, and or trade mountain lions between western states agencies and eastern state agencies, do these agencies need the permission by way of notification or permit from any federal or state agency or veterinarian? What documentation is required and who keeps those records and for how long?

Question 7 -
Is it legal to release mountain lions that are from the gene pool of cougars from the western or mid-western parts of the United States or any Canadian Province into the states of New York and or Pennsylvania by any federal or New York or Pennsylvania agency on any private, state or federal land within those states?

Question 8 -
Is it legal to release mountain lions that are from the gene pool of cougars from the western or mid-western parts of the United States or any Canadian Province into the states of New York and or Pennsylvania by any profit or nonprofit foundation agency on any private, state or federal land within those states?

Question 9 -
Is it legal for any private individual and or group of individuals acting alone or in concert under the name of any other agency or group to release a mountain lion, regardless of gene pool, so that it can free-roam on private, state, or federal land within the states of New York or Pennsylvania?

Question 10 -
Are pet mountain lions that are released into the wilds of New York or Pennsylvania protected by any federal law, and if so, please identify that law? In other words, is it legal to shoot a pet mountain lion that has been released into the wilds of New York or Pennsylvania? I was informed by the owner of an exotic cat menagerie in central Pennsylvania and the owner of a pet mountain lion for ten years that "a loose pet mountain lion is extremely dangerous". Does the U.S. Fish and Wildlife staff agree or disagree with that statement and why?

Question 11 -
Are mountain lions that are from the gene pools in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, Washington, Oregon, Oregon, Wyoming, Nebraska, and or the Dakotas protected by any federal law when these mountain lions are brought to New York and Pennsylvania and released into the wilds of either state?

Question 12 -
Has the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Agency ever recommended, encouraged, and/or promoted the re-introduction or releasing of mountain lions into the wilds of New York or Pennsylvania? If so, please provide all federal documents that recommend or promote the re-introduction of mountain lions into the wilds of New York or Pennsylvania.

Question 13 -
Does the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Agency have any documentation that any state or federal agency, any private or nonprofit group, or any individual or individuals has ever released or is currently releasing mountain lions into the wilds of New York and Pennsylvania? If so, please send us a copy of that documentation.

Question 14 -
Florida currently has a Similarity of Appearance rule from the Federal Register/ Vol. 56, No 157/ Wednesday, August 14, 1991 / Rules and Regulations 40265-20267. This is the final adoption of the 50 CFR Part 17, RIN 1016-AB42 by the U.S. Department of the Interior, Fish and Wildlife Service for Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Threatened Status under "Similarity of Appearance" Provisions for Felis concolor in Florida. Does the Similarity of appearance rule apply to New York or Pennsylvania? Please explain the "Similarity of Appearance" rule.

Question 15 -
Is there any attempt by any state or federal agency, any private or nonprofit group, or any individual or individuals to adopt a Similarity of Appearance rule for the Eastern Cougar (Felis concolor cougar) in either New York or Pennsylvania? If there is, what process and data must be documented for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife to adopt a Similarity of Appearance rule for New York and or Pennsylvania? Has this process been started? Will there be federal hearings on this issue if it arises and will residents of Pennsylvania and New York be notified and invited to these hearings? Will you place me on the official mailing list for any notification regarding the change of status of the federal mountain lion law in New York and Pennsylvania? Who presides over these hearings? What is the burden of proof to change the existing federal laws and regulations in Pennsylvania and New York?

Question 16 -
Mr. Vern Ross, Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission has stated in July 2005 that there is no penalty for shooting a mountain lion in Pennsylvania when it is in defense of that person and or his property. I was informed by one of Pennsylvania's foresters in the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources that the head of law enforcement at the Pennsylvania Game Commission says if someone shoots a mountain lion, his office will assist U.S. Fish and Wildlife officers in prosecuting that individual and they will be fined $4000. Is that true?

Question 17 - My local Pennsylvania Game Commission Wildlife Conservation Officer has informed me that there are no mountain lions in Pennsylvania, but if I shoot a mountain lion, I better have claw marks on me. If I wait until a cougar is attacking me, I will be dead. The Wyoming Fish and Game Department has a mini-course on the Internet on mountain lions for hikers, hunters, and fishermen and women. They tell an individual to observe a mountain lion's behavior at 200 yards, and then 100 yards, but they state that if a mountain lion appears to be sneaking around you or pins its ears at a distance of 50 yards or less you should shoot if you have a gun. Vern Ross has stated there is no penalty if a person shoots a mountain lion in Pennsylvania in self-defense. No one is willing to define specifically what self-defense is and what it means. What is the definition used by U.S. Fish and Wildlife officers to determine when and under what circumstances a person can shoot a mountain lion in self-dense of themselves, their family, or their animals?

Question 18 -
Is anyone at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife agency aware if any state or federal agency in New York or Pennsylvania has ever tracked or is currently tracking mountain lions with electronic tracking devices such as using GPS, satellite, and/or air surveillance in either state? Please provide any internal and external documents that are in the possession of any U.S. Fish and Wildlife Agency office that are related to electronic tracking of mountain lions in New York or Pennsylvania.

Question 19 -
Our research now has discovered more than 175 sightings of cougars in Pennsylvania alone and some of these encounters were very close encounters in both states. We have not found one resident who encountered a mountain lion on their property, in a municipality, walking on a public rural road that understood the proper safety evasive procedures one should take to avoid an attack. We are not aware of any Pennsylvania, New York or federal agency that has educated the public on how to remain safe if you encounter a mountain lion in the wilds or otherwise. Why is no one providing or promoting a mountain lion safety program? What precautions does your agency recommend for a person that encounters a mountain lion regardless if it is an escaped pet or otherwise? Please be specific. Does New York or Pennsylvania have trained personnel to deal with problem cougars? Is anyone trained to identify, track, capture live, or hunt with or without dogs to kill a nuisance mountain lion? Why do agencies advertise in these states to capture problem cats at a cost of $2,000 - $3,000 per day plus expenses?

Question 20 -
Does the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department maintain a DNA database on the Eastern Cougar? Does any agency or research office anywhere in the United States maintain such a database? If hair or scat (How is it determined in the case of scat if the cat is a bobcat or a mountain lion? ) from a mountain lion was discovered, can the U.S. Fish and Wildlife make a positive determination if that mountain lion is an Eastern Cougar or belongs to one of the other sub-species of mountain lions in the United States? If so, how is that positive determination made and is such evidence valid for legal evidence if a case has to go to court? What agencies or research specialists maintain mountain lion DNA databases? If they exist, does U.S. Fish and Wildlife cooperate with these DNA research centers and is such DNA analysis valid as evidence for applying federal law? If members of our research team find mountain lion hair or scat evidence, who is capable of analyzing this evidence for proof of match to one of the mountain lion sub-species? If we discover such evidence, can this evidence be sent to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Office for analysis? If so, please specify the person and place and cost. If you recommend an agency other than the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department, please identify the person, place, and estimated cost and turn-around time.

Question 21 -
If a mountain lion is discovered hit along the road by a vehicle in New York or Pennsylvania, who should that incident be reported to? Is it mandatory that a road-killed cougar be reported to authorities? If a person discovers a road-killed mountain lion in either state, is it legal for that person to keep the carcass?

Question 23 - Are Native Americans, protected by the Treaty of 1890, permitted to legally kill and possess a mountain lion or pick-up and keep a road-killed mountain lion in either state?

Question 22 -
If a mountain lion is shot in New York or Pennsylvania who should that incident be reported to? Is there a federal fine and, if so, how is it determined? Can someone who shoots a cougar in either state face a federal incarceration penalty? Is the DNA of the mountain lion a factor in determining fines?

Question 23 -
Does the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Office want photographic/video evidence of mountain lions in New York or Pennsylvania? If the answer is affirmative, how will the visual evidence be analyzed for valid identification? Is that done by an individual or a team?

Question 24 -
Please provide all evidence obtained by all U.S. Fish and Wildlife offices that mountain lions are or were in the states of New York and Pennsylvania regardless of whether such mountain lions are from western states or raised on ranches on Native American reservations anywhere in North America. Please provide all photos, video, or any scientific DNA evidence that such animals are or were living in either state regardless of whether they were released intentionally or unintentionally or otherwise. Have any mountain lions ever been killed in New York or Pennsylvania for any reason whatsoever? If so, please provide evidence obtained and the nature of the kill.

Question 25 -
Has anyone in New York or Pennsylvania ever been charged or prosecuted for the killing of a mountain lion. If so, please provide copies of all such cases including dates, names of persons involved, penalties, and agencies and persons involved in the prosecution

Livbucks........Thanks, I checked the link to the map, it is now working??
Keep in mind I only posted in two counties.....I stopped for several resons I will continue soon.

Cougardaville

bobcat..........ive seen a couple while hunting pa.....

Cougardaville,the problem I have with you and your website is that you're trying to claim there's this huge population of mountain lions accross the northeast without any proof what so ever.You say they're being sighted in huge numbers.What proof is there that anyone has sighted any?It's all specuation from people that have never seen one before and they have no idea what they see.I'm sure a high percentage of these people truly believe they saw a mountain lion but most if not all are mistaken identities.What do you have to say about all the black panther sightings?Has there ever been record of a black mountain lion,anywhere in the United States.

I have no doubt that an illegal pet or two could be released from time to time.It happens with many species of exotic animals but how many of those human imprinted creatures last long in the wild or actually reproduce?I can buy that and it also wouldn't surprise me if some eco-wacko tried to release some on occassion to bring the wilds to a more natural state.However,it's hard enough for expert biologists torear animals in captivity and then re-gain a wild breeding population.Unfortunately the vast,vast majority claims of mountain lion sightings are nothing more than mistaken identity.Look at all the bobcat pictures on this site where experienced hunters argue that it's really a mountain lion.Before you make wild and ridiculous claims about this huge mountain lion population,have some concrete,indisputable proof to back up your claims.Otherwise,you're just stirring the potand spreading irresponsible rumors.Look at the guy on here that claimed to have dragged one off the road.After dragging it off the road,he claimed to have simply called the PGC headquarters and gave directions to where it was at.Afterall,he didn't realize it was a big find.You have to be kidding me.That seems like some solid evidence that you should post.Don't forget to add in the WCO's response about him covering up the incident.

DougE....this thread was about a picture, we gave our opinions to what it was. Then you wanted to take me to trail and jury about the research I do. I tried to be polite answer some questions and show you some of the words I actually do say, including I do "not" think it is fair to the animal that is being RELEASED, or escaped. You still have a problem with what any one says...me or the road kill sighter......
I don't think I can say any more to you at this time except this....
Proof, I hear ya all the way, and everyone wants that.
You see what happens to pictures on forums and what people say, they are called liars and fools. Who needs that?
Let me ask you this. Do you think I and others would do this everyday, if we have not seen something very "REAL" to make us continue?
Do you think when the proof is presented it will be done with a picture on a forums page saying "Hey check this out?"......I don't think so, you know how valuable that information is. Stay tuned, calm down....it's coming.

Cougardaville

I have spent a large part of my youth at my family farm in Hannacroix, NY. I have seen cougars on several occationswhile hunting and trapping from about 1968 to 1980. All of the folks living around that area have also seen large cats and during a January '06, 80th birthday for my grandmother I had some further discussions with some old hunting matesthat duringthat last season they had also seenan cougar.

I have seen cats in NH on 2 occasions and a muddy paw print that was certainly no bobcat.Just Sat while looking fora blood trail some scat was on a ledge of rocks that looked much like cougar - size, shapewith hairand bones - looklike coyote fur to me- and whateats coyotes?

Several of he hunting mates I have in NH have also spotted cats andthe fish cops here have logged sightings also in western and west central NH.

Just because we don't see then roaming the corn fields is because they are cats and like bobcats, fischer cats, etc, these things are stealth and do alot of movement at night. Go to any remote wilderness areawhere they are rocks, cliffs, etc and youcan see the signs.

Lets see - moutain lions are western, cougars eastern and pumas mid-west?They are all bigs catsthat will attach and eat anything theywant.

That's all I want to see is proof.If we had a huge population,that certainly wouldn't be hard to find.Again.I'm not discounting the possibility about an escapedor released pet.That hardly constitutes a huge population in my opinion.Doing research on this subject is interesting and noble on your part.I think it would be a great discovery to be part of finding a breeding population.Callingwhat we have or insinuatingthat we have a huge population is irresponsible.I hear about mountain lion sightings on a regular basis around hear.Two years agoour local WCO even investigated a case of a teenager claiming one knocked him off his bike just down the road from my house.It turned out to be pure nonsense but people still panicked in the meantime.I was at a meeting with our local WCO last thurday night.We had some good laughs talking about themountain lion encounters people keep having around here.It seems that we have have them right in the city limits and in people's yards all the time.Funny thing is,everytime someone snaps a picture it turns out to be a house cat or bobcat.Every single time the person taking the opicture thinks it's ground breaking evidence that mountain lions exist.I have close personal friends that swear they saw them.I don't doubt their sincerity but Ibelieve they saw something else.The fact is,if we had more than the occassional released pet running around,we'd have solid evidence of their presence.