RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I don't treat WCO's with disrespect whenever I see one in the field. I answer their questions and that's it. I just don't like being treated like a criminal and quized about what I am doing, what time I came, where I'm from,etc...


I just know that when hunting in West Virginia I was greeted with a handshake and an introduction. That impressed the he77 out of me. That WCO made some small talk and ask what we've been seeing. He didn't even check my license( which was folded up and in my wallet, by the way) Didn't quiz me. He did notice the plates on my truck and ask what part of PA I was from, though.

I even heard the rumor thatJohny Carson made a joke in his monologue about the PGC and their public relations. Not sure how true that is but if it was true, it speaks volumes of how they are viewed.

I heard that rumor at one of those public forums years ago. Back when everyone was attending meetings and relaying experiences with how they were treated.

A few of the speakers were off duty police officers telling how they were treated.

One off duty state police officer told the story of how he and his two buddies were ordered out of their vehicle at gun point. When the officer showed his badge and explained who he was the WCO had a big change in attitude.


That story really caught my attention.

I believe that to be a true story because the cop had no reason to go in a public forum, speak into a microphone in front of a couple hundred people and say that.

There was a lady that was held in a PGC vehicle for several hours while her husband was questioned in the house. She needed to use the restroom and was denied.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

Don't blame you. I hate that too.


Good to know. I hope the PGC would take notice. They aresupposed to be a "service" organization for the most part.

I hope you don't put much credence in those second hand accounts and rumors, I sure don't. Everyone has a different point of view of what actually happened.

ChuckS

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

Does the PGC have these "hoedowns" in all of the otherWMU's ?

Like myself, I'm guessing others would be far more interested in tours in their immediate area.A listing of tours by county or WMUwould be of interest to me; actually, a list of "active enclosures" by county or WMUthat I could visit on my own would be of more value to me personally due to potential scheduling conflicts and the like.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I would say that first impressions last, and bad impressions influence a our view of something for a long time unless countered by a good one. Perhaps the problem is thatthere are some that act like A-holes. And there is NO excuse for it. If they do, they should be fired or reassigned to a position with no public contact.



The comparison to a DUI checkpoint is a bit off.
They only stop you if you areactuallydriving down that street. Not if you are sitting in the front yard, washing your car in the driveway, looking at your buddies car, etc, etc, etc.
You are asked a few questions and unless there is strong suspecion that you ARE violating the law, you are let go on your way. There is no "asking" for yourI.D. if there isn't, and they (PSP, or locals) don't automatically go to checking your license to see if you are driving legally. One time with "How are you this evening" first, then about where you are heading or coming from, were you drinking. If no, if "coming from work, going to work" you may get asked where that is, but otherwise, "Thank you, have a nice day/night" and done.They can not just "run your plate" unless there is some suspision and it is in the course of their duties of enforcement, or check your license just beause they "feel" the need to. (the old "prema facia evidence" of hunting bull of the PGC)

Maybe, or maybe there is a problem. And part of that problem is that the PGC has their own "Khaki Wall" like some police have the "Blue Wall". That they are THE LAW and feel that they should not be questioned and/or can do no wrong.
My own "story" was experience by myself, was not exagerated, and was only 1 of several I could tell. Those happened to my father, brother,somecousins and I have no reason to suspect embellishment or lies from any of them. (except one and I do dismiss his story) Maybe I just live in an area that has a few of those rotten apples, (even one of the cousins is a friend with a retired WCO who will say that more than a few of the oldguys and most of"the new kids" are complete A-holes and should be booted out) But that just means the PGC should be policing their own ranks a bit harder and maybe invest into some better public relations and communication training like what just about any real police force has to.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I would appreciate it if someone could explain how it is that a WCO can stop you for no other reason than to check your hunting license yet it has been determined to be unconstitutional for an officerto stop you for no other reason than to check your driver's license.

I can't think of a better or easierway for the PGC to improve its relationship with the good citizens of PA than to eliminate this common practice. The world didn't fall apart when they stopped the troopers from doing it and it wouldn't fall apart if the PGC stopped either. It shouldn't be hard to understand that it is at least annoying if not offensive to many people to be stopped and questioned by any kind ofofficer when they are doing nothing more suspicious than returning to their vehicle after a mornings hunt. Add to that situationthe wrong kind ofattitude on the part of the wco (not the norm but not uncommon either) and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why many hunters first impression of the PGC is a negative one. Unfortunately and I think largely because of this practice, many WCO's wind up coming across as Barney Fife types rather than serious officers working to apprehend serious criminals.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

The questions about checking hunter licenses are good ones and I will try to provide some incite into the discussion and provide some of the reasons why you might have your license checked even though you didn’t do anything wrong.

First let me explain though that there is a difference between stopping a car on the highway, to see if the person has a valid drives license, then there is in checking a hunter for a hunting license and the courts made that distinction when they ruled that hunting is a highly regulated sport and therefore a simple check of a license is not an unreasonable intrusion. The courts have ruled that it is not a violation of a person’s rights to check their hunting or their fishing license even if no violation was first observed.

What most hunters don’t know is that a license check really is a form of investigation and that WCOs don’t check every hunter they see or even the majority of the hunters they see. Generally we are responding to some form of stimuli that keyed us to the fact that we should be checking some licenses in the area.

Some of those stimuli would be a report that so and so hunts in an area, lives in another state but buys and hunts with a resident license. Or, that so and so carries his wife’s license after he gets his deer and tends to hunt in this area or that area. Or, so and so already got his deer and put his tag back on the license with glue. Or, that so and so already killed a deer, didn’t tag it and is back out hunting.

Reports of license type violations will cause us to spend time checking license in an area, but if we don’t know what so and so looks like the only way to find so and so is to check licenses and identification.

Sometimes the stimulus comes in the form of finding a suspect vehicle parked in an area and then looking for the suspects that fit the vehicle. That can range from having information that so and so is out in some type of violation mode. Then we might find the vehicle but not knowing were to actually find so and so until we check his him in the field. Or, we might simply find an out of state vehicle parked in an area but can’t find anyone with a non-resident hunting license so we make everyone produce additional identification until we sort things out. That is why we often ask questions and check identification. The license check is often just an opportunity to ask questions while reading the body language to perhaps get keyed in on someone that needs to be checked even more closely.

Sometimes we find evidence of an illegal act in an area but don’t know who is involved so we start checking every hunter just to see if we can develop a feel for who the suspects might be and match the evidence we already found. That is pretty common when we have baiting, illegal tree stands or have found a freshly killed dead animal hidden some place n the area. We will canvass the entire area, writing down vehicle registrations and checking every hunter we see in an effort to find someone that is a likely suspect. Often in this type of investigation the officer will ask questions about if you have shot at anything, check you firearm (to see if the ammo matches) and often ask things that don’t really make any sense to the hunter but help us determine if the body language matches the answers.
Often we get keyed in on hunters by the hunters them selves. To best explain how that happens I am going to tell you about a few real situations I have experienced over the past couple of years that caused a lot of hunters to end up getting checked and questioned a lot more closely they thought they should. I am sure some of them think I am an A$$ as a result of the questions I asked some of them.

While driving back a dead end road leading to the game lands on a peek day of the deer season I hear a radio transmission that goes something like this:

Hunter one: “Hey, the Game Warden just went back the road.”
Hunter two: “Which way was he going?”
Hunter one: “Back toward the game lands parking lot.”
Hunter two: “Ok guys, we had better split up. Harry you better just stay in the woods until after he comes back out.”
Hunter three: “What the f____ is he doing out here, he should be checking those guys on that hunt club?”
Hunter four: “I don’t know but there isn’t much I can do if he checks my license, this is the only f______ license I have.”
Hunter two: “Just stay in the woods and split up, Jim let us know when he comes back out.”

I lot of hunters got checked over the next couple of hours because we checked every hunter and every parked vehicle we saw until we had this one sorted out. Of course not all of the hunters in the area were involved in what was going on but we didn’t know who was and who wasn’t until we got to the bottom of it. Some of those hunters that hadn’t done anything wrong probably thought they had been checked by an over zealous Game Warden or Deputy that day.

While driving along a forest road during a Saturday in the concurrent deer season we hear the following transmissions:

Hunter one: “I have a doe standing here looking at me, anyone have a tag?”
Hunter two: “We still have a few tags that need filled.”

I stop, shut the vehicle off and listen. Out the road a distance I hear a shot.

Hunter one: “Browns down.”

We start that direction; we stop at every parked vehicle and record the license numbers. We also check a few hunters standing around or sitting in some of the vehicles. We question each of them and record some information about each one because we still don’t know who all might be involved. I am sure some of them thought we just over zealous idiots.

After a while we find several parked trucks and I soon check a hunter walking along the road like he is flanking a deer drive and as soon as I leave him I hear the radio come alive:

Hunter one: “Bodenhorn just checked me.”
Hunter two: “Did he say anything?”
Hunter one: “No, he just checked my license, asked if I have seen anything and if I was part of drive.”
Hunter three: “Someone get a tag over here.”
Hunter two: “Which way is he going?”
Hunter one: “Right toward the watchers.”
Hunter two: “I don’t know how many we have down, but don’t anyone bring anything else out until we make sure he is gone.”

There were a lot of hunters that got checked real close and asked some very interesting questions over the next couple of hours. Some of them weren’t part of this group but it took us a while to sort out which ones were and which ones weren’t. It was hard to tell which hunters were and which ones weren’t part of this group but we had to check everyone we saw for a while so we could hopefully sort it all out later.

Sometimes, just the body language a hunter presents keys us in that we need to check closer, but knowing which ones comes with Officer experience. Getting that experience is something else that sometimes leads to hunters getting checked and asked questions. When I am training a new deputy or have a Student WCO on field assignment with me I have them checking each hunter we encounter, checking their license, asking questions and then getting additional identification when they feel it is needed. This is all a training exercise that once we get back in the vehicle I will critique them on how they did, what they observed that were key to honesty or deception. We also discuss the officer’s demeanor as well as their pre-contact assessment and tactical positioning relative to any potential threat.

I guess the bottom line is that usually when a hunter has his license checked there is a lot more going on behind the scenes that they don’t know about and in all probability we aren’t going to advertise what we are working on because that information could totally jeopardize our investigation.

If we are not working something with an intense reason to keep moving to locate the right hunter we tend to be more social too. Just because the WCO doesn’t spend time standing and chatting might well mean they are pretty involved in just collecting some information to rule you out as a suspect and then wanting to move along so they can hopefully get to the right suspects before they are out of the area.

We are not your enemy, we just want to help protect your resources so the honest hunters can find enjoy a more successful season. Sometimes that means you will have an encounter with the Game Warden checking your license. Remember though that you are the one that will pretty much be setting the tone on how well that field check encounter goes.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I think that you are missing the point: no one is claiming that these checksare not useful to you; rather they arepointing outthat they are intrusive and violate what many of us think are our constitutional right to be free of unreasonable searches and to be detained even for a brief period of time. We are not criminals,we are not servileand we resent being treated as suspects!
We know that this is still considered legal in Pa., but it doesn't make for good hunter/WCO relationships. You should not be surprised that it is not just poachers who are p.o.'d at the PGC.
I still would like to knowwhat percent of the people that you stop and check turn out to actually be violating something?

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

"RSB", that was a really good explanation of why Game wardens stop and check our licenses. The problem is, I DON'T BUY IT!

I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped with my 2 sons (when they were very young) and have been checked. NEVER ONCE have we been cited for any infraction.
When I ask (and I always ask) why were we stopped and checked and why they were interfering (for no just cause)with our huntI have ALWAYS been told that "It's my job", or "It's my duty to check you."

NEVER has a Game Warden said that he had been alerted of some offense being committed in the immediate area we were in.

I clearly remember when Ver Ross (then Exec. Director) ordered all law enforcement to attend some sort of class on how to deal with the hunting public because the agency was recieving so many complaints. Perhaps you missed that directive?

If you stop someone for a license check you should begiving them a valid reason for the stop and check, not simply "It's my job." I resent being stopped unnecessarily and I make it known to the Game Wardens.
I believe it's your duty to explain yourself!

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

R.S.B.,

As Mocha Java said you have indeed missed the point. The question was "howis itthat a WCO can stop you for no other reason than to check your hunting license yet it has been determined to be unconstitutional for an officerto stop you for no other reason than to check your driver's license." You responded by simplystating that its different and the courts uphold it. We understand that its legal to do it, the question is what makes the legal difference? You indicated that somehow it's because hunting is a highly regulated sport. Certainly driving is much more regulated and controlled than hunting is. It also has much more impact on the safety of the general public so if that is truly your answerI doubt many are going to say... "wow that makes sense, now I understand". I certainly won't.

You also said that"Generally we are responding to some form of stimuli that keyed us to the fact that we should be checking some licenses in the area".and you went onwithlengthly examples of checking licenses when there is reasonable suspicion.Again youmissed the point. Nobody is talking about checking and questioning people when there is cause, it should have been clear that the question is about checks "for no other reason than to check your hunting license" and I doubt there are many that will buy the idea that that doesn't happen very often. It's a common practice and everybody is well aware of it.

One last thing... You said "Remember though that you are the one that will pretty much be setting the tone on how well that field check encounter goes". I think the officer has by far the biggest influence onthe tone of the encouter and it is troubling to me that, as an officer,you seem to only recognize the citizens responsibility. Good relations have got to be 2 way!

Again, IMO the pr benefit the PGCwould realizesimply byeliminating the practice of checking and questioning people for no other reason (emphasis on for no other reason) than to check would far out weigh whatever law enfocement advantage is gained from the practice.

Good luck R.S.B. and I appreciate that you have taken the time to respond.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I was Spring gobbler hunting one time and had an encounter. I was on a ridgetop calling, and could see to the bottomwhere there isan old railroad bed. I notice a human form coming up the railroad and when I called, he turned and started up through the woods in my direction. He didn't come all the way up but stood down there looking up the hill to try to see me. He stayed there for a long time. When it got about quitting time I walked down the hill directly to him. I realized he is a deputy WCO. He does the ID thing and checks me. He was friendly but I thought it was strange how he more or less stalked me while I was calling. He wasn't overzealous in his demeanor but he could have impacted my hunt. It was first day and there were not many leaves on the trees yet. Any bird in that valley could see him coming up the railroad and would have disappeared. I guess I call bad because he could tell I was no turkey.