PA Deer Hunters
 

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, but I always here complaints about PA not having any deer. I want to raise this question to you all. How many deer do you all take throughout the seasons? I myself will try to take one, even though I apply for the bonus tag, just to take the tag away.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I'm in a Special Regs county, WMU 5-D so I usually get a couple doe and hopefully a buck. We have alot of deer in our region and our buck to doe ratio is all out of wack, about 10 or 12to 1.[:@]

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

buck and 1 doe tag
i dont bother with the extra/bonus tags

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I usually take 1 to 2 doe out of 2B. Alot of deer in Allegheny County. I hunt also in 2G and 2F but I let the does walk in them area's.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I shoot several each each year(most in 2G)and I'll continue to do so.Decades of deer overpopulation has severly effected the habitat in 2G.In order to turn that around,we must reduce the deer population below the carrying capacity.If I hunted in an area that had excellent or above average habitat and few deer,I'd let the does walk.However,I've yet to see that situation.All the areas in this part of 2G that have few deer,have terrible habitat.Ifeel no guilt shooting a doe in those areas.I won't apply for a 2G tag this year because they severly slashed them and my chances aren't good.I do have three dmap coupons for areas that could use less deer and I plan on getting two more.I'm seeing no shortage of deer in this part of 2G.The herd was way down in 2003- 2004 and last year it started to rebound quickly.This year,I'm seeing almost as many deer as I did several years ago.With the antlerless allocations getting slashed so much,we're getting alot less pressure and this year we'll see even less.The habitat is really starting to respond to lower deer numbers and now it will go back to where it was when we started.I'll get as many tags as I can and kill as many deer asI legally can around here.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Hello gang. I'm in 2f. Forest/Warren Co. I've been hunting for 40 some years and last year I shoot my first doe....my son wanted the meat. Yes I apply every year for the "doe tag " but never take a doe....just to pull the tag, so to speak. The areas in nw Pa have been hunted hard for along time....and the deer population is starting to show a big decline.
The bear population is getting out of hand up here.....unreal. The bear is another reason for the decline of the white tails ....betcha they are getting their share of the new fawns.
BOB

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

There in lies the problem, it's not the PGC shooting the deer and the ones that are complaining are usually the ones filling multiple tags...I'm not complaining however I've still not purchased a doe tag in many years. This year however, I may.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

i will try for one doe tag in 4D. iwill notuse it on SGL's.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

hey guys. i hunt deer in 2D and sometimes behind my camp in 2F. i buy an extra doe tag each year and usually take two deer each year. the buck to doe ratio seems fine to me in 2D and there deff doesnt seem to be a decline in deer. But in 2F, i never saw a single deer. ive never shot a deer up there.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I hunt 2F 2D and 2B. I generally take a doe from each of 2D and 2F and take 2-5 in 2B where they are still way overpopulated. (BTW I'm in a suburban deer program in 2B)

2F is showing some effects from HR but forest regeneration is just starting to recover and there are still plenty of deer up there if you just take the time to find em.

To the guys who buy doe tagsand not hunt with em simply to save a doe: you are actually contributing to bigger doe tag allocations by driving the hunter success rate down. A low hunter success rate in a particular WMU leads to even more tags being issued so that the desired kill is reached.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I'll try to take 5 does between 2D and 2B. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Pretty much always take at least 3.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Thank you all. It seems that all that have respond have a clue as to what I am talking about then. I understand that the city areas are loaded with deer so I have to applaud you all that hunt those areas. Myself get tired of talking to this kind of individual "There are no deer left in this state!" So I asked them if they got any last year. There response, " Yeah, I took my two, my brother took three, and my buddy took three."

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I remember back in ye olden days when you got your choice of a buck or a doe and the seasons were only two weeks for buck and three days for does i feel that we should go back to that for a couple of seasons just my .02cents

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

If I am lucky a buck and a doe. No more than that at this point despite having one or two more doe tags.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Snipehunter your exactly right. I think that if went back to a system as that, the deer population would return to what hunters and outdoor lovers would all be pleased. Rotate the systems, but keep the antler restrictions.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

For the first time in 20+ years, I am not getting a doe tag. I hunt up in Warren County and the deer population is ridiculously low. I do believe the are over hunted. Too many people filling out bonus tags up here and taking 3-4 deer. Also for the first time since I have started hunting I am not gonna rifle hunt. Just gonna bow hunt and go for the big one that has escaped me all my hunting years. I think we should go back to the 2 week buck and 3 day doe. At least for a couple of years...........

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Aldo, if there aren't any deer there, how are these other guys taking three or four deer a year? Where do they come from?

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

You tell me. I have hunted the same area all my hunting years. I have gone up and down the hill, there just arent the signs like there used to be. Most of those guys are also taking doe. I used to see up to 30 deer the first day of buck. I am lucky now if I see 5. It used to sound like fireworks going off on the first day-not anymore. The deer population up here is getting down. You know as well as I do that alot of guys also take deer illegally. Where I said they are taking 3-4 deer you know that some of those dont have tags for all of them. No I dont know who they are but everybody hears stuff. I am usually the first guy out there for archery season (which means they arent spooked yet) and I am "lucky" to see 5 deer all day. Maybe it is the area I hunt in but you talk to alot of guys up here and compared to 20 years ago it just isnt the same. I know nothing is the same after 20 years but for our wildlife to go down is a major problem. Something needs to be done but nobody will listen. Hopefully they will before it is too late.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Is five deersightings per day a bad day hunting?Pa hunters have been spoiled for way too long because the hunting was easy.You say you've hunted the same hill all your hunting years.There in lies the problem.Food conditions,cover, and pressure all change things.During a 20 year period,you can't expectthe habitat or the hunting conditionsto stay thesame.If you were used to seeing 30 deer per day in one spot,your area most likely had way too many deer for too long and that's most likely the reason they aren't there any more.How would you like the PGC to micromanage you're little piece of ground to satisfy you while at the same time,managing the rest of the state?

I rarely if ever see more than 5 deer a day from my stands in archery season.What would be an exceptable amount to you?

Hunting is exactly that.You need to scout for the best places to hunt because nature doesn't stay static.Try it this year.It will be much more rewarding.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

When I said I see 5 that was for the first day of rifle. I never said I saw 5 deer per day. If I did I wouldnt complain at all. Vegetation is good. There isnt alot of pressure and cover is excellent for them. I do hunt and scout. I dont hunt the same spot. There are days I dont see any deer at all. Lucky if I see one off in the distance. Those 30 deer I saw were on the first day of deer. You guys arent reading what I am putting down. And it is an endless arguement. The original poster asked how many deer do we take per season, not how many we see. I guess I should have said , I shoot my one deer and Im done. Sure I could shoot more. But I choose not too and then you guys come in and "attack" (maybe not a good word) me on my hunting skills. I just said I wasnt gonna rifle hunt anymore and that we should go back to the 2 week buck and 3 day doe. I know we cant make special rules for every hunting spot but maybe county by county? It has been said that there are alot of deer in Allegheny County but alot of hunters in this area say there isnt as many. Should we make special regulations for each county? I dont know if that would work. I dont have an answer. I only suggested that we go back to the old hunting days.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

The old hunting days got us into the position that we're in now.Think about some of the stuff you posted.On one hand you say hunters are killing all the deer but then you saying,pressure and shooting is way down.If that's the case,who's killing all the deer?Way too many hunter are neglecting to realize how easily fawn recruitment is effected when the habitat is poor,especially during bad winters.Northcentral Pa has a habitat problem caused largly bydecades of excessive deer numbers.Until the habitat starts to recover,we need to keep killing the does.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Well....I live in the ANF , and yepp the deer in Warren / Forest Co. are down in comparison to other years. I do alot of scouting because I have thet time do so.....I also put on 150 miles a day of driving the back roads around here......well it don't look to good. Like last year.....tons of apples on the ground.....tons of acorns.....no tracks near them. Even in winter, the trails have no prints. One can walk miles with out seeing a foot print ....even old ones.
Years ago it sounded like a war zone sounding through the valleys on opening morning.....recentl years very quiet for the most part ....with the same amount of hunters parked along the roadsides.
I too am a bow hunter and have been for many years. Oh yes , there are still deer around....but not like it was .
But in the same token , some counties seem to be looking very good and should deliver a good take.
We are all sportsman here and want the best from our hunts, and the best for our enviroment.....I guess we must enjoy what we have, after all ....." it's the hunt , not the kill"........enjoy urselves.
BOB

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Show me where I said the pressure was way down? Yeah I said the shooting is down but when you have how many years of being able to get how many deer per year the population is gonna go down. When did they start the bonus tags? In the 80's. SO we are talking 20+ years of being able to get more than one deer. Hmmmmmmmm dont you think the population is gonna go down? There isnt as much shooting now as there used to be. Why? There are alot of different reasons. But alot of the hunters that are out there are shooting more than 1 deer. Hell most of you admitted to it. Did you do that in the 70's? Back then hunters were also more choosey on what they shot. You got one deer so you wanted to make it a good one. Now you can get at least two so some shoot the first thing that comes along. Some shoot yearlings and see that they are too small and just let them lay there. Now dont you think if you were able to only shoot one deer you make make it a big one? Also not once did I say that we should go back to the 2 week, 3 day forever. I said for a couple of years. BTW check your geography, Warren isnt considered North Central Pa. It is in the Northwest........

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

This agruement is starting to take the wrong turn. I didn't want people to start picking on geography/spelling test. I just wanted to see what people thought. Most people so far have agreed with me. Not visisting the whole state, I didn't know about the condition of the habitat of the North Central area. I have hunted in the southwest and south cental PA regions. When I was younger, I used to hunt in Greene County, where on any given day you could see anywhere from 20 to 50 deer a day. Now hunting down there is pretty much a waste of time. The first day last season it used to be like someone said "sounded like a war zone", now the first day seems like any other day of hunting. Maybe they should start using the regions for other then Antler restrictions then.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

You specifically said there wasn't alot of pressure in your area.Despite having bonus tags,the deer population continued to rise throughout the 90's as evidenced by the increased antlered kill.I'm not trying to attack your hunting skills and I believe that you scout.However,why would you scout an area,find little sign and then hunt there anyway?I hear alot of people say that and I just fail to understand that line of reasoning.There's alot of places that I don't hunt in a given year because there's little sign.That doesn't mean that hunters killed all the deer in that areathough.

Hunters were not more choosey back in the 70's and 80's.Most killed the first legal deer they saw in their scope.That's why we killed more than 75% of our 1.5 years olds each year.The PGC now gives hunters two weeks to take their time andbe more selective.A 3 day doe season would ruin that.

There is no doubt that we have less deer today but that was the plan.We killed record numbers of antlerless deerand we had twoback to back winters that severly impacted fawn recruitment.Habitat conditions have played a huge role in our declining deer population.That problem in starting to get better so why take deer management in the other direction?

I shoot several deer every year and I'll continue to do so.I'm not one of the one's complaining about no deer though.I''ve had alot ofopening days where I only saw 5 or 6 deer.I hunted in Susquehanna county this past opening day in an area that was loaded with deer.I was on my buddy's property and they only hunt the perimeter,sitting from morning till dark.He promised I'd see deer all day but I ended up seeing one doe with a fawn.On my home that night,there were deer all over the place so just because I only saw two deer,that doesn't mean there weren't anyway.That was actually the worstfirst day I've ever had and there's 3 to 4 times as many deer out there than there is where I hunt in 2G.Sometimes you see them and some times you don't.I don't expect to see 30+ deer on the first day of deer season and anyone that does is purely selfish.

Hunters need to embrace the idea of helping the habitat instead of expecting instant gratification.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

From what I see Doug it doesn't matter if it's three days or two weeks,plenty of hunters play the brown it's down game.The other year a fawn ran past my son with a few spots on it yet and some A-hole shot it.The new excuse is they have been hunting for almost two weeks so if they see a deer it's going down.Some people just can't pass up a deer no matter how small.
As for fawn recruitment vs herd reduction it's too ironic that the herd crashed after the massive increases of anterless tags and extended seasons.I still believe AR is the culprit for low deer numbers in 99% of the state.Granted there are areas with poor habitat but it's been that way for a long long time yet deer were plentiful.I hunted in Potter in the 70,s and 80,s where you could see 200 yards in some places yet 50 deer a day was a common sight.And we had some bad winters in those years to boot.Why was there so many deer back then with habitat just as poor as today?
I should add that we took some real nice wallhangers back then after we figured out ya gotta go in the thick nasty stuff where a hunter had a 60 yard shot tops.Not only were there more deer back then from our experiences there were more and bigger buck too.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Rich,there may have been more bigger bucks then but the average size of the bucks in each age class has gone way up.There have been boom andbust cycles before in the northwoods.Do you remeber the winter of 1978?Fawn recruitment was certainly effected that year and the following two years harvests showed.I don't remember any winters during the 80's wherethe snow was to deep to walk through for several months.We had two bad snow storms in 1993.One was right before doe season and one was in march but they didn't last all winter.The conditions were brutal up here in 2004.We had several feet of snow with a heavy crust that lasted from the beginning of feb through most of march.If you don't think that had an effect on deer numbers,your simply not being rational.2003 was't quite as bad but is was worse than most previous winters and there was a poor mast crop both years so deer went into those winters in poor shape.Never in the past 20 years did we have to back to back brutal winters with poor mast production like we did those years.Did we kill alot of deer prior to and during those years?Of course we did but we needed to.

The truth is,the habitat is extremely poor through much of this region.It's poor for the deer,other animals and the timber industry which this region relies very heavily on.If anyone wants more deer than the habitat can handle without further damage,they're being selfish.

If the habitat isn't having an effect on deer numbers,why are they coming up with few deer in some of the most remote and underhunted areas of the state?There used to be a huge amount of deer in the Quehanna wild area.FLIR and pellet counts are coming up with very remoteareas that have no deer or 2 dpsm.Who's killing those deer?

I have 2-3 trail cameras out from june until the end of septemberThe next time you're up,come over and look at pictures and the negatives.I got a total of 2 fawns on film during the summer of 2004.Last year we had a mild winter and I got a bunch.This yearmost mature does have twins and a few have triplets.The habitat plays a huge role in fawn recruitment during bad winters when the habitat is as stressed as it is in most parts of 2G.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

The PGc has generated plenty of data showing the average age of our harvested buckshas gone up. data on body size and antler size will change much more gradually.
I've got a hunch that no data would convince some here and there's always someone clever enough to use a calculator and some smoke and mirrors to attempt to cloud the issues and discredit any data they dont like

All you have to do is survey the states taxidermists to see that they aretaking in"more and bigger bucks"

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I haven't seen anything from the PGC to support that either, I'll have to go search the PGCsite. Knowing them it will take a few years to get the stats available. I have heard a few people quote numbers such ataverage # of points and antlers spreads in various taxidermy shops and buck-pools.
Personally I have noticed larger bodied (weight)deer in my area and also in McKean county but that is somewhat subjective. It woul=d only make sense that with fewer deer thus more browse available that the deer would be larger. Isn't that what your seeing in your area?


That would be an incorrect interpretation of that study.

ChuckS

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I've seen no evidence from the PGC to back that up.However,I have spoken with Cliff Cessna,the biggest taxidermist in this area.He'sages and records each deer that he mounts(over 200 a year).I don't have his records handy but the size of the racks have been going up over the past 20 years for deer in each age class.He's also getting in more deer in the older classes.I went to pick up a buck with my buddy last year and he had several in that were between 6-9 years old.I know personal observation is worthless because a person is only seeing things in a relatively small area.However,the number and size of the bucks I'm seeing this year is better than it's ever been.


Idon't discount the possiblilty that we couldeventually see a decrease inantler size due to highgrading.That's up in the air though since most of our doe are bred before the bucks are killed.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Iam watchingfor that possibility too.IMO it would take many many years to see any significant difference. So I am not immediately concerned, but then again I wouldn't want to find out 10-years down the road thathighgrading has impacted the genetics.

ChuckS

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

It's a much harder thing to quantify than it appears. Just counting points, weighing, and aging the deer won't give you the information you need. Too much variation within the state, even within the WMU (like food quality / avaiability) to get a good evaluation in just a year or two with limited sampling (reporting).

ChuckS

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Actually it does. Besides their AR were different than ours. Their AR was essentially our old spike rules.

ChuckS

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Ithink there's a distinct possibility that high grading could occur and it does concern me.However,just the fact that guys can't unload the clips on their 7600's as soon as they see bone is reason enough to keep AR's.

I was out spotting last friday night and saw a total of 37 bucks.Out of those 37 bucks,only 2 were not legal and several of them were nothing short of spectacular.None of these deer were on public land but allexcept 7 were on unposted land that sees heavy hunting pressure.I saw a bachelor herd of 16 bucks and all of them were legal and at least 4 were in the 18-20 inch range.Thisspot is open to anyone and it's even dmap'd.This is the first year I've seen anything like that.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I still think it's about herd reduction.I know plenty of private land open to hunting which also has very low numbers.Most of this land is farm country yet very few deer.these areas and public land in the NC have one thing in common.Unlimited numbers of hunters.As for the Q-wild area that was heavily hunted in the past when herd reduction started.
I remember 78 Doug.The thing is in those days the herd fluctuated but never like we have now.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

I am in 3B and am fortunate to have about 120 acres of private property that is also landlocked by another 300+ acres of property that sees very little pressure, and no doe hunting. The guys that do hunt around our patch will shoot 8 point or larger bucks and don't shoot does. They don't mind that we do. We have an overabundance of does on the property, there are 7-8 different family groups of them and probably roughly 15-20 does on the property that I am familiar with this year. Last year I passed a lot of deer including does hoping for a nice buck to come in, and only one doe was taken last year by my father. This year we hope to take 3-4 does between my dad, myself, and my one good buddy that I allow on the property.

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Wow...that's about 26dpsm of just does. What is the habitat like? Is it able to support that high of population?

ChuckS

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Not my quote. I noticed you mixed and matched a few in your last 3 posts. Must have been a long day.:D Like I said I have [not] seen that data.

Average age of bucks harvested:
My calculations show an increase of 1.8 months from 2000 to 2004.
Either way: 6%(1month) or 11%(1.8mo) is significant for a deer. I wish I could increase my life expectancy that much!

ChuckS

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Lots of agriculture but our patch is in the middle of a 1000 acre or sobig piece of woods that is landlocked by crop fields. No I don't think this many deer is healthy........that is why we want to start killing some off. I wish we could get the neighbors to buy into taking some does too....

RE: PA Deer Hunters
 

Deerfly,I'm sure several of those bucks were 1.5 years old.Last years mild winter and excellent mast crop assured that the deer came out of winter very healthy and sporting larger racks.Yes,I was able to see the brow tines on every buck.It's not hard when you have good glass and the deer are less than 50 yards away.I'm not telling you how many bucks hunters are harvesting in 2G.I'm simply telling you what I witnessed.Those bucks were all feeding in agriculture fields and they'll most most likely disperse more in the fall.I would also go as far as saying that we have more adult bucks around here than we do adult doe.I have no way to prove that other than by observation but I've been getting about 3 bucks on film for every doe and I'm seeing way more bucks at nightime thanI am does.I have no idea what the actual b/d ratio is but it isn't 1/2.i've had far more opportunities to kill bucks in archery season over the past three years than I've had opportunities at does.

The harvest rates will vary all accross every management unit.There are areas they get alot of pressure and areas that get very little pressure,even on public land.It's obvious by the low deer numbers in these remote areas that hunters are not controlling the herd there.I'm not claiming no deer were harvested in these remote areas butthey recieve very little pressure.

I'm also not saying that hunters didn't drastically reduce the herd.They did but the habitat has also been playing a role.