Pa, that link you provided is .... well full of BS. The map they show is woefully small when it comes to the current range of grizzlys. They are not rare by any strech of the imagination with in outside of yellowstone and glacier national parks. TheSelwayBitterroot Wilderness has grizzlys and the Bob Marshall Wildernessis packed with bears, and both are open to public hunting.

Did you really think that thru before you wrote it? So everytime some hunts something they are succesful? Lords knows no one ever shoots at something and doesnt hit it or just wounds it. Its been said before and I ll say it again, any animal that is pursued by humans is much more secretive and wary than an animal that is not pursued. Momma gets shot at and learns to fear the sight and smell of man, and then she teachs her cubs that. As for reading up on grizzlys, Ive been out west elk hunting in grizzly country, followed down the mountain by a wolf, and stalked by a mt. lion.

First off Pa,

I certainly did not mean to imply that you were a peta member or anything of that sort. I was just speaking in general.

Second off, this statement is totally incorrect. Grizzlies actually have very sustained and significant populationsthroughout manyparts of the west, like Buckshot said. The Bob Marshall wildernesswould Not be someplace you'd want to be without being "loaded for Bear". Much like some other mountain ranges:the Gravelleys, the Absorkas, the Cabinet mountains, The Bighorns (in N. Wyoming), etc. etc.

http://fwp.mt.gov/FwpPaperApps/hunting/2006DEARegs_pgs114to118.pdf

I have heard of wardens out west who drive around and shoot at bears with rubber bullets and harrass them to instill fear in them continually in the parks where hunting is not allowed. I sh*t you not. I saw it on TV.

Maybe the map i found when i searched is wrong, lord knows everything ont the internet isn't true. But the fact still remains, that hunting bears doesn't make it anymore likely that a bear (which has been shot at) is not going to attack a hiker if it feels her and her cubs are cornered, or it doesn't mean the same bear is anyless likely to eat that hiker if it were starving, regardless of whether or not it has been shot at. What you are describing is the exact definiton of an ecological fallacy. For this to be correct we should have to assume bears, wolves etc. REGULARLY hunt and kill humans, or attack them for no reason.

The ecological fallacy is a widely recognised error in the interpretation of statistical data, whereby inferences about the nature of individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong. This fallacy assumes that all members of a group exhibit characteristics of the group at large. Stereotypes are one form of ecological fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

Sorry Pa,

But you are trying to paint a black and white picture by the exmaples of bear attacks you site, which is not the case.

On occasion wild animals are going to attack no matter what, or how they've been managed(that's why they have that TV show--when animals attack!), . Still, it goes to common sense that animals that areless afraid of man, less "wild" if you will, are more likely to be more comfortable in the same areas as man and that fact alone will create an environment prone to more attacks.

The proclivity of wolves to become more and more agressive within the current "management" of the Feds is just one piece of the pie and one that the newspaper article reflects. A pack of wolves is THE Apex predator--It's just a matter of numbers. With the right numbers there is nothing that can challenge them. THe impact that a pack has on everything around them is easily measurable and many believe that the short-sightedness, and perhaps anti-hunter/western resident rights policies of the FED on this issue is just as measurable.

THe ecological fallacy stuff is probably the same bunch of malarkeythat the "pro" re-introduction crowd is using. I swear, all you have to do is talk to people, to real-hunters/outdoorsman from the west or who have had enough experiencein those areas to get the real scoop. I know a lot of themand lived out there for several years and can tell you that no hunters/ real outdoorsmanI ever met was in favor of the current management situation in regards to wolves.

ROTFLMAO, you have got to be kidding me, no wait I just looked up your profile, talk about a babe in the woods. Riddle me this batman, why has every bear Ive seen in PA run like the wind once they figured out what I was vs. all the bears I saw in yellowstone which stood there and loooked at me as if I owed them money? Domyself and the rest of the experinced woodsman a favor and peel you eyes off whatever book/site you regurgitating this BS from and get out there and experince life instead of reading about it.

Hillybillyhunter, animals are simply not capable of operating outside of instict, they just aren't that evolved (thats what seperates them from us). An animals instict provides all their reasoning for doing anything (including attacking people)all these actionsare oriented at surviving. To create an evironment more "prone" to attack, these animals would have to be hunting us in the first place, which isnt the case otherwise they would be wondering into every elementary school and snatching children because they would certainly make for an easy meal that killing an elk or something they are actually accustomed to eating. What your creating is an environment more prone to predator/human encounter. Although, with the ignorance of most people trying to hand feed bears and approach them to take picture- these morons may be more prone to attack because they are playing on the food insticts, or fight or flight response. Im not saying there isn't A LOT of probelms associated with the current management practices but I REALLy don't want to see them scraped all together.

Buckshot,I really like that we have resorted to insulting my age- thats really speaks on character. Im no 'babe' when it comes to the woods, I have spent 10 seasons hunting deer, turkery, and bear in several states. In addition i have a solid education, a BS degree in Parks and Resource Management and Geographic Information Systems. I get paid alot of money to analyze and study data associated with animal/human impact in resource management cases. I to have encountered bears in the woods of Western Pa, an WV and seen the a reaction similiar to what you are describing although it was in Glacier National Park. The reason these Pa bears ran from you is they are lest accustomed to human interaction, but i assure you if those very same bears felt you a threat to themselves or their young, or perhaps they were starving it would have been a very different reaction. Animals attack out of instict and if you do something to trigger that, your ass is toast no matter if they have been hunted or not. Just because one bear attacks in a certainsituation, it is absolutely and ecological falacy to assume allothers will react the same way.

Oh, and are far as not being an "experienced" woodsman, i suggest you check out my picture gallery as i have taken more animals than most do in a lifetime of hunting.

But regardless, to whatever wise crack you wanna make about my age now, I believe this thread has ran it's course and im done with it. Good luck in the woods this fall.

So what your saying is that animals have no capacity to learn, gheez, next time my dog brings me my remote control, I guess he's just doing that out of instinct.

Before we invented fire and other means of defending ourselves, we were food for everything that could possibly kill us. Bears and large predators eat meat and last time I checked were made out of meat. They can and will eat us.

Really? and how do you think they were able to approach these animals in the first place? The animals have "learned" this behaviour, humans equal food.

Well at least we agree on something youve got BS. lol.

Oh so what your saying is that the bears in the parks have learned that humans are no threat, but the bears in PA have learned that humans are a threat.


ROTFLMAO, You have got to be kidding me. You actually think youve killed more animals than most people do in there life time? Your really do have a totally inflated veiw of yourself dont you. Well that puts a whole new perspecitive on where your coming from.

I would have never said anything about your age, if you hadnt come across as some punk kid. Do yourself a favor, print a copy of this thread, stick it in with your important papers, a place that 15 years from now youll still have it. And then when your in your mid to late 30s take it out and read it, you'll thank me when you do.


Good, my ribs are starting to hurt from laughing so hard. Good luck to you too.

I have to admit that this was an interesting thread, to say the least... as for the wolves...well,we're responsible to the Creator, for EVERY living creature He put here. Should they live in NYC? nope....too many people/not enough area...should they have human interactions? ... yep....we're on this planet together...should the bad ones be put down, if need be?...yep....should they be re-introduced to parts now uninhabited by wolves?...yep,especially since we did it for other species. should there be a season developed for them, in a Varmit class?...yep...and I hope the price of their fur goes up,too! Man must understand that these animals were NOT put here as a fiscal tool for any social sect. Using hunting as a way to control, and thereby managing the cost factor for Law Enforcemment/Restocking,etc,thru the sale of licencesIS acceptable. Whether the wolfpack decimates the turkey/deer population in any given area is the reposnsiblity of the DNR, and they should be held accountable should that happen. Animals and people have co-exsited for centuries...sometimes it ends bad for the human...sometimes bad for the animal....most the time its' a non-event.....but it DOES end. They have a right to exsist wherever they can, and we owe them their "space", as this planet is NOT exclusively for the Humans.

Call me a punk kid all you want, studying things just like this situation are whats puts food on my table, its my job and i am good at it.

In 10 seasons, i have skilled 20+ whitetails, and 6 turkey, i wouldn't call that to shabby for a punk kid.

The BS, a Bachaelor of Science degree.

You have yet to say anything that proves predators are hunting humans, but since your dog can pick up your remote control- lets just assume your right. But hey, once upon a time, old guys just like you believed the world was flat and that turned out well didn't it?

Rem1100, well put.