jf5

Yes, but maybe the habitat is not the same as 20-30 years ago??

Carrying capacity changes.

My father used to hunt VT from the late 50's to the very early 80's. From 58-68, he said he would see allot of deer. Some 15-30 a day, sometimes more. Back then, VT hunters would rather kill there mother then shoot a doe, so very limited doewhere taken. In 1969, a hard winter killed offthousands and thousandsof deer statewide. When the herd rebounded slowlyafterwards, the huntersagain would not control the does.All the while, the habitat grew, and had less wintercarrying capacity every year. In 1978, the big blizzard smashed the Northeast, crashing the herd again. While the next 25 years had its ups and downs on the herd.VT never again regained those "golden years". You go to these same covers now and you would be lucky to see 1 deerin severaldays ofhunting.It had nothing at all to do with herd reduction/ doe permits. It was because the habitat could notcarry that many deer through a tough winter anymore. They had the hard winters in 58-68 too, but the capacity of the land was there to carry them at that time.

VT never had a herd reduction ever. In fact, they are still allot of old timers who insist that all doe permits be stopped. In some zones they did just that, and the herd did notincreasemuch at all. If anything, the quality of the deer declined. (weights and racks)

My point is,what a cover could carry 10, 20, 30 years ago, may not be what it can carry now.

Four Sox

Thanks T, but PA is different from Wyoming, what are they eating in the "PA Wilds" of 2g???

germain

jf,I'm not seeing a difference in the habitat in areas I mentioned from 20 years ago up till now.But then the canopy is still closed.I can appreciate what you're saying but that's not the case in these particular areas.

germain

They sure like that purty grass T.Most likely because it's fertilized.It adds a sweetness to plants.If a fellow were to fertilize a grove of oaks the deer would pick the fertilized oaks over the non fertilized oaks every time.
Just thought I'd throw that tid bit in there.
I see alot of deer eating grass lawns also not to mention along the highways.So we can conclude that deer and elk do share the same foods.
Here's some food for thought for all of us whipper snappers.The DCNR along with the birders have been complaining about the deer eating wildflowers and especially trilliam.{spelling}Why is it OK for the elk to eat the wildflowers?

germain

Elk spend most of their lives in family groups (females and offspring) that often come to form huge herds of 100 or more during late fall and winter. They can live in a variety of habitats as long as they find enough shelter, water, and plenty of space without human interference. Elk on ALE spend most of their time in open lowland areas, except during the calving period in April and May. They are more active at night. Because little vegetation exists in the shrub-steppe to hide their movements, they may use darkness as a form of concealment. During the day, elk use sagebrush shrubs to conceal themselves and for shade. An elk's diet consists primarly of grass (thus they are referred to as grazing animals), but they also will consume seedlings and twigs, berries, mushrooms, cattails, and wildflowers. Elk eat almost constantly during the summer, building up fat stores in preparation for winter.

Got this off the internet boys.And here lies the contradiction with the PGC and DCNR.On one hand they complain about deer eating the bush and wildflowers yet on the other hand they introduce more elk.Things that make ya wanna say hmmmm.

DougE

Well,I do agree with you about the elk.They can be way more destructive than deer and they do eat browse.The expansion of the elk herd is one of the thingsI have an issue with.It makes no sense to increase elk into areas with depleted habitat.I'm with you 100% on that one.I have alot of issues withthe way some people in DCNR want to put hunters on the back burner.I have no issues with them wanting to reduce the herd to help the regeneration however.

Germain,the habitat has changed greatly in the past15 years since I've lived here,let alone the past 30 years.Look at the the tornado area for example.It's no where near as good of habitat as it was in the early to mid 90's.Not even close.You really need to look me upthe next time you're up this way.I'm really curious to see some area that can safelyoverwinter alot of deer.Now I can show you areas that are definately on the road to recovery but it's still way too early to turn back.

Not all areas of Moshannon state forest and Quehanna are dmap'd.Actually,there are huge areas that they decided not to dmap because they were seeing positive signs of regeneration once the herd was reduced.You guys need to speak with some of the district foresters.They're the ones who apply for the dmaptags and they chose not to expand the dmap in this area.Howdoes that equate to them wanting to kill all the deer.

Germain,there aren't just pockets of deer around here.Some of the best habitat is on the game lands because the PGC does alot of work there.I hunt SGL 77 AND SGL 93all the time.It's a rare day I don't seeplenty of deer each time.You can also hunt all of Senacca resource property.They have thousands of acres and deer inhabitat all of it.The guys doing most of the complaining are the ones hunting areasMoshannon state forest where the habitat is poor,which is most of it.There's no reason for deer to be there because there's very little coveror food.I'd be more than happy to show you all the places where I hunt.It's a short drive from your camp.It took me about five days out hunting to kill a buck and two doe this year.I killed a doe on the first day of archery season in Parker Dam state part and I killed a buck a couple weeks later on some private land open to anyone.I'll show you that spot as well.I passed up 9 bucks before I killed one.I have 18 different bucks on trail cam pictures in that area and I never saw any of those bucks during archery season.I'll show you those picturesand I'll show you you the exact trees the cameras were set on.You won't find a posted sign on any of these properties.The deer are still out there.What we had to contend with this year was a huge mast crop.A well fed deer is a tough deer to hunt because they don't have to move as much.We also had some bad whether the first two days of rifle season.On top of that,pressure has been way down.Without guys moving the deer,sightings will surely decrease.

I spend as much time in the woods around here as anyone and I fail to see how our public lands are shot out.I don't see 20+ deer a day any more but I don't have to.I see deer almost every time I'm in the woods and that's good enough for me.The week before the first day of spring gobbler season,i saw 15 deer on sgl 93 in less than atwo hour hike and deer sign all over the place.I don't know how familiar you are with those gamelands but they're one of the heaviest hunted spots in this area and they aren't all shot out.

The areas whereI see the least amount of deer are some of the most remote areas with the worst habitat.No way are hunters controlling the deer in those situations.The habitat is the limiting factor and it needs to be fixed.

jf5

OK, I hear ya.

Just wanted to give an example of what happened in VT and why. PA still has great hunting. I would not want to see it go the way VT did. At least nowVT is finallyworking on building it back up.

Four Sox

T, won't let me post link for some reason, but look up PA Elk website, go to food and habitat and pay attention to what they eat in the winter time, not good for an area with such bad habitat!!!!

DougE

I agree.They strip the bark right off the trees.

germain

foursox,click on fast reply.For some reason that lets you copy and paste.
Rj,I hope they get on the right track up there for you guys.

Doug,We'll get together.Would winter work for you after the hunting season when the ticks and such aren't so plentiful?Summer is a tough time for me right now because I'm dug in on some projects but I do want to get together.
Also the two areas I'm talking about that haven't changed much are the left side right before you head down the hill to hit the former washed out bridge.Very little sign and hardly any good regen.I can't speak for all the mosh forest.Shaggers run road has plenty of new growth but it's all basically beech.And the deer numbers there have b een low for about 6-10 years now.
I'm not including SGL's in my posts because they are managed with tree plantings and food plots.
In our area we're still finding and killing a few bucks but the herd is really down from herd reductions.Food isn't a factor here because there's crops {mostly rye},mast,and plenty of browse from the strippings.Plenty of red maple and blueberry.