RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

It all comes down to competition for food. Mt lions are not mousers, but other cats are...so, no competition. Coyotes mouse, and so do fox, so theres the competition for that number one food source. Bears actually eat more forbes and carrion than they do prey, so again, no competition for the food source in Caanan, NY. As for bears co-existing out west, the griz and browns have their food source, and a VAST area to cover. Blacks make a living in big bear country because of one thing, the ability to climb. Guys, dont believe me, read your reference books, its all there, and why. Call Dr Valerius Geist out of Sask and ask him to talk to you about predator dynamics.

Why arent there more lions naturallyoccuringin an area that looks like it could support them? Where there are a few, why dont they propagate? Coyotes are one of our most adaptable species, they can and do live any and everywhere. Large cats dont. You guys say Im wrong. Ok, Im listening...why ARENT they, then? Heck, this has been a fun topic, time for someone to take the ball and run with it now, you guys dont like MY answer, lol. And again, no offense taken! Next?

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

It's not that I don't like your answer - I am trying to ask soe hypothetical questions and questions that will bring up different points of view. Everyone has some knowlege about alot of things but no one knows everything about everything. I like the whole debate process it keep you thinking in different frames of mind - the people that have a problem with the debate process are the debate process are the people who are close minded to everything but what they already know and these people will never really go one to Learn all that they can.

From what i understand about mt lions though is that you will never really have big numbers in one area because they are more of a solitary animal. They are very territorial so the only other lions inside a males range should be females and kittens and any male kittens are in danger of being killed by the adult male and if they do mature they are run off to find their own territory.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Thanks Bill ;)

As for controling the population, I always thought it was the prey species that controled it. Take for example yotes and rabbits. It's the fluctuating rabbit population thathas the greatest effect onhow many yotes can survive - not enough rabbits the yote population will drop (it's cyclical). All the course I ever took focused on the pred/prey relationships, not pred/pred relationships. I do see that there can be some correlation with that more predators can lower the prey species more, but I don't necessarily buy into the larger pred dispacing the others (like mentioned by a few others - AK, Yellowstone, etc - different ecosystems, but correlations can be used).

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

I think the only time that you have REAL predator displacement is among the family of Dogs.

Coyotes will to much extent displace foxes.

Wolves will definatley kill any coyotes they come across (even in Yellowstone).

But the displacement does not usually occur between different type species (ie mountain lion vs. coyote or bobcat vs fox). It may change some with the introduction of a new dynamic species but will even out over the long run.

Many predatory animals have a kind of symbiotic relationship with each other. (polar bear and artic fox for instance) and although there will be definate confrontations between higher predators, each ones self-preservation instincts supercede their need to displace their competition in most cases.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

In 15 years in Wesern NH I have seen a cougar 2 times. Once crossing the highway - and I mean one leap and a paw on the yellow line and he was gone. The second time was bow hunting around some rocky cliffs. I saw him go above me and he stuck his head out from around a tree and looked right at me - and I had been sitting dead still for 2 hours or more in a good clump of hemlock. I then went up and saw his track - definately a cat.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

My cousin spends a lot of time in NH and he has mentioned seeing thier sign before. He spent almost 2 years with Native Americans in North Dakota and knows this stuff very well. Never told me that he saw one in person though.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

i spent some time with the native Americans too... When I fell off the wagon out west these two guy Lewis and Clark took me to some woman nick named Sack and she was took care of me till i was able to get out on my own.

LOL

Just kidd'n - it's been a slow and long day at the office.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Predatory displacement does occur in instances, as mentioned above. Yotes often push out red fox. Grey fox tend to fare better than red when faced with coyotes, and seem to be able to share territories. Their ability tomove up treesis a prime reason. I've seen a litter or two of grey's 8-12 feet up in a hole of a tree. Pretty resilient.

I'm trying to think of other predatory displacement issues (outside of dogs), but I can't think of any off my hand. They are rare, but do occur. I believe there may be some relating to predatory birds.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

jhoffman, I know it sounds wierd but he really did go on like a "retreat" I guess you would say and live on a reservation for like a year. I always laugh at him about it!

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Phade, I still say there are others, but I hate sounding like a know-it-all. Its well documented how lynx drive out bobcats, once the food source is comprimised in any way. Snowshoes and grouse, two cat staples, are both cyclic, as are those two cats. Bears tolerate each other, but again, its the fact that blacks can climb that keeps them in business in big bear country. Ask a northern trapper what happens to his line once a wolverine starts running it. Like I said, at the risk of sounding like a k.i.a., its not just canines, but all predators. Yes, they do tolerate each other in some situations, and doughboy makes a valid point on how prey control predators too. Its both, for different reasons.

Jhoffman, I too like the debate. I only mention not being offended, almost tongue in cheek, because I seem to be contradicting the majority here again, isnt that how it usually is with me? Lol, lets keep the debate open. Thats what these forums are for.