hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Not that I really want to stir this age-old debate up again, but...
I just read a nice article in Progressive Farmer on cougars east of the Mississippi River. The article was very straight forward, "knowledgeable", & stated many of, what I call, "common sense" views on the subject. Smoe key points:
- a wildlife biologist (Don Linzey) has been tracking sightings in the upper south (KY, VA, TN) for 24 years
- "there is no doubt that cougars exist in the Smokey Mts.,...but no evidence of breeding populations"
- they could be straglers of the FL and/or SD native populations and/or released pets
- a young male was collared in SD and found 700 miles away (in OK) a year later
- the distance from the area where KY, TN, & VA border each other to northern PA - ~650 miles
- so is it possible that some cougars COULD be wandering the hillside around here - I would have to say (as I have always stated) YES

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

There was just a great article in Adirondack Life regarding cougars in NY. The DEC denies it, but they have reasons to. If they admitted to having cougars, they would have to develop a plan to manage them. I have spoken to and read about too many people up north who have seen them and their sign. The North Country is certainly vast, hell some people still think that bigfoot is up there.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

When should logic enter into these posts? Adirondack lions? We already have crashing deer numbers, and too many coyotes which, in turn, over compensate on the remaining prey, small game, and now we can suddenly support the highest predator on the chain? Nope, it didnt and hasnt happened. A chance escaped captive reared lion, living out its life, maybe, but thats about all. The lower appalachian trail has few and still no reproduction. Logic speaks for it all here, guys.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

No need to insult anyone's logic. There is plenty for any animalto eat in the woods. Just because you are the highest on the chain doesn't mean that you can only eat what is next below you. That's logic to me. Just because deer aren't in abundance doesn't mean that cats would be forced to eat plants and rocks.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

That's been basically my point all along and many others might I add. No one can certainly say they can garuantee there are or there are not mt. lions in the state of PA and those who think they cannot exist are fooling themselves. The biggest questioned posed all along is, why not? They certainly can wonder in from almost anywhere. Are they established, probably not, are they breeding, perhaps, perhaps not. Have they been sighted? I believe they have be it they migrated through, some released/escaped animal from somewhere...who knows unless it was captured and studied. Are they planted by the PGC or some insurance company....this I'm not sure I can believe but then again, our PGC has been so honest with us up to this point.

I stand firm that they certainly can exist in this state, we have food, water and cover.....when humans can get lost in our forests, cats can certainly exist without notice.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

This is always a fun subject to debate. I am just hoping that we can all keep this thread more focused that a few in the past. Like the question that has already been brought up. "Why Not?" what would really stop mt lions from being able to survive in PA and NY?

How the got into these places is another question. I would be interested in some of the "logical" explainations of "if" these animals were here - what would stop them from being able to survive with the conditions that exist in NY and in PA?

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

I don't think anything would stop them. They don't HAVE to eat deer.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

The forests have matured and become wild again after being decimated at the turn of the century. We have more deer now than we ever did before, I'm told. What better conditions could there be? Breeding populations? Not sure there. I don't think the few there could possibly be existing could find each other. Maybe, I don't know. I don't care to argue this subject. I'm taking a new stance...."who cares at this point".
If I see one it will certainly cease to exist, seeing how it wasn't there to begin with.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Here's an idea. Take a captive cougar, radio collar it and turn it loose in one of the wild regions. See how long it survives and how many times it gets sighted. I would neuter it first though, just in case. You're right though, they don't have to eat deer. They could eat your dog or your horse or sheep or kids...they could eat anything really, just like we can. Remember Jeffrey Dahmer?

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

"Remeber Jeffrey Dahmer"

Libbucks - is that your new war cry - like "Remember the Alamo"

LOL

They can eat anything and that'shem able to adapt to the what would make them adapt to the conditions of NY and PA. Breeding populations if they were to ever be in NY or PA - I don't think would happen in my life time but if there were a breeding pair around I don't see anything but coyotes that would be a problem concerning their survival. I am not sure home far away from a litter a momma mt lion would travel to give coyotes enough time to kill the kittens but I am thinking that a coyote would not be much of a match for a mother mt lion protecting her litter.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

NO this pic is not from NY or PA just so people do not think I am trying to imply that. This is a pic of a tree'd lion in Idaho - my uncle took the pic.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Airborneguy,I dont think youknow much about the chain I spoke of. Also, I hate to say it butifyou wereinsulted by my last post, its sort of like the phrase "if the shoe fits...", as I certainly wasnt directing it at anyone.

The highest predator on the food chain displaces the predators under it, especially once the main food source is comprimised. Deer numbers are down, deer are the obvious first choice for mt lions. Small game in that region is quite cyclic, the lynx program proved that quite accurately. The transported lynx promptly walk off and out of NY. Bobcats survive just like the coyotes, on rodents. Fox are on a low cycle now in that region and would feed on those same rodents. Thats just how it is.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

To airborneguy and others...I should clarify...any posts and comments I make in here should not be considered a personalattack on anyone in here. Im just banging opinions around with you all. If I sound short, its probably my "love for typing" that has me short with words. I hope you all understand.

Now, I figure that if any of you really think we have a population of wild lions in NY, you must be half baked, and if you think the DEC placed them here, you are loonie...not that theres anything else wrong with you! Ok, I hope you read the tongue in cheek there...

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

All right no offense taken then. BUT, I still think that its possible. I'm not going around saying that it is definate, and certainly don't think that the DEC would do it on their own. Huntingrevenue is too important to a lot of smaller towns upstate, especially out of staters coming in. The DEC would never intentionally damage the deer herd and risk losing that revenue (hell hunting is down too much already).

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Bill,

where in this thread did you see "wild population" stated?? A population would mean breeding and that is one thing that most would agree isn't happening (most likely). to me, it is really simple - it is POSSIBLE that there could be a cougar or 2 wandering the northeast countryside. 1 or 2 cougars wouldn't put a big dent in the deer herd nor have a hard time finding food. all the yotes and bobcats aren't eating all of the mice and critters. my 2 cents

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

The highest predator displacing smaller predators?

Grizzly, black bear, wolves, wolverine, lynx, all of those predators are competing in Alaska right now. Who is displacing who?

Black bear, cougar, coyote, grizzly competing in Yellowstone too. Who is winning out there?

Heck let's look at Africa. Lots of predators there.

I think the food sorce is the same for all 3 areas. Even if some places have different species for prey, they compete for the same ones.

PA probably has a higher deer population thanmost of the states out west yet they support coyotes and mountain lions. Why can't eastern states support a cougar population?

House cats do quite well when released into the wild. I'm sure that most hunters on here have seen a house cat or 2 many miles from the nearest house, while out hunting. I don't think a cougar would be much different.
As far as breeding pairs, I don't know I'm sure nature would take its course if a male and female were to meet.



I think logic is speaking for itself.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

certainly true with house cats, they live anywhere.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Ill stick by what I said. Predators do run the other off. Ask ANY trapper what happened to reds and greys once coyotes took over. Higher end predators prey on the predators below them. Coyotes will run off and/or destroy fox, fox and coyotes both prey on cats, in the north lynx drive bobcats out of their range. Its not just my idea guys, this stuff is all documented.

I agree with all of you, its possible, just not too likely, in the sense that its regular. As for who said "wild populations" again, as we have all stated so many times in the past, debate in these threads often have some flavor from other similar posts on the subject already posted. I just carried it over. If the only reason you made a new post was to say "its possible that a lion could exist in PA or NY and live"...well, ok, I guess it could, and you must be correct.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Bill -
I have to agree I have been a trapper since I was 14 and I have notice that the red and grey fox population has dropped off noticeable since the coyote population really took hold in WNY. One thing I noticed was that it seemed that for whatever reason is that the fox population is sparadically strong. What I mean by this is it is similar to the Phesant and Turkey populations - some areas are still supporting a strong fox population while other areas are supporting a strong coyote population and even though there is nothing stopping a coyote from going in to the area were the fox still are they just seem to leave well enough alone. I have notices the same with the turkey and phesent around where I live.

Another thing - the lynx program you are talking about - just from what I have heard about it took place in the Adirondaks correct me if I am wrong because I admit I am not 100% on all the details here.

I have relatives in cannan, NY - it is right on the Mass. border - they have a Lynx on their property that has been spotted by them many times and has even been seen sunning itself in their back yard - This alone don't seem really strange to me what I do find strange is that over about 5-6 years the coyote population has really taken off there. They are seeing more bobcats than they ever have even though they have always had them around, They have seen this lynx around and have seen several fishers on their property, and have even noticed more than just the occational wandering black bear - they are seeing black bear pretty regularly and last year saw a sow with cubs on the property.

Now if you look for Cannan on a site like mapquest and see where it is compared to the Adirondaks that are know by fact to support all of these animals you will probably ask your self the same question I have asked myself about these animals seeming to thrive in an area where the deer numbers have been dropping for years along with all small game but still these predators are moving into this area and coexisting with each other and seemingly doing very well. WHY? Although a 5-6 year time frame is probably not long enough to see what will be the end result in this case it leads me to the opinion that mt lions could easily co exist with other predators in NY and PA " IF " they were here.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

I was told by a trapper friend of mine, several years ago, that mange had really takenits toll on fox. Here in PA we now have a bobcat season because the bobcat population is on the rise. So is the coyote population.


I'm sorry. I don't agree with the theory that the highest predator displaces the smaller predators. If that were true, places like Alaska, Yellowstone, Africa would not have all the predators that they have.

In Alaska the Grizzly is probably at the top of the food chain, or the Kodiak if you're along the coast. But the lowly black bear population is not suffering at all. Its been that way for a thousand years.

Besides, even if that theory were correct, the cougar population, in the northeast, is not high enough to put a dent in the coyote population.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

It all comes down to competition for food. Mt lions are not mousers, but other cats are...so, no competition. Coyotes mouse, and so do fox, so theres the competition for that number one food source. Bears actually eat more forbes and carrion than they do prey, so again, no competition for the food source in Caanan, NY. As for bears co-existing out west, the griz and browns have their food source, and a VAST area to cover. Blacks make a living in big bear country because of one thing, the ability to climb. Guys, dont believe me, read your reference books, its all there, and why. Call Dr Valerius Geist out of Sask and ask him to talk to you about predator dynamics.

Why arent there more lions naturallyoccuringin an area that looks like it could support them? Where there are a few, why dont they propagate? Coyotes are one of our most adaptable species, they can and do live any and everywhere. Large cats dont. You guys say Im wrong. Ok, Im listening...why ARENT they, then? Heck, this has been a fun topic, time for someone to take the ball and run with it now, you guys dont like MY answer, lol. And again, no offense taken! Next?

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

It's not that I don't like your answer - I am trying to ask soe hypothetical questions and questions that will bring up different points of view. Everyone has some knowlege about alot of things but no one knows everything about everything. I like the whole debate process it keep you thinking in different frames of mind - the people that have a problem with the debate process are the debate process are the people who are close minded to everything but what they already know and these people will never really go one to Learn all that they can.

From what i understand about mt lions though is that you will never really have big numbers in one area because they are more of a solitary animal. They are very territorial so the only other lions inside a males range should be females and kittens and any male kittens are in danger of being killed by the adult male and if they do mature they are run off to find their own territory.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Thanks Bill ;)

As for controling the population, I always thought it was the prey species that controled it. Take for example yotes and rabbits. It's the fluctuating rabbit population thathas the greatest effect onhow many yotes can survive - not enough rabbits the yote population will drop (it's cyclical). All the course I ever took focused on the pred/prey relationships, not pred/pred relationships. I do see that there can be some correlation with that more predators can lower the prey species more, but I don't necessarily buy into the larger pred dispacing the others (like mentioned by a few others - AK, Yellowstone, etc - different ecosystems, but correlations can be used).

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

I think the only time that you have REAL predator displacement is among the family of Dogs.

Coyotes will to much extent displace foxes.

Wolves will definatley kill any coyotes they come across (even in Yellowstone).

But the displacement does not usually occur between different type species (ie mountain lion vs. coyote or bobcat vs fox). It may change some with the introduction of a new dynamic species but will even out over the long run.

Many predatory animals have a kind of symbiotic relationship with each other. (polar bear and artic fox for instance) and although there will be definate confrontations between higher predators, each ones self-preservation instincts supercede their need to displace their competition in most cases.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

In 15 years in Wesern NH I have seen a cougar 2 times. Once crossing the highway - and I mean one leap and a paw on the yellow line and he was gone. The second time was bow hunting around some rocky cliffs. I saw him go above me and he stuck his head out from around a tree and looked right at me - and I had been sitting dead still for 2 hours or more in a good clump of hemlock. I then went up and saw his track - definately a cat.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

My cousin spends a lot of time in NH and he has mentioned seeing thier sign before. He spent almost 2 years with Native Americans in North Dakota and knows this stuff very well. Never told me that he saw one in person though.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

i spent some time with the native Americans too... When I fell off the wagon out west these two guy Lewis and Clark took me to some woman nick named Sack and she was took care of me till i was able to get out on my own.

LOL

Just kidd'n - it's been a slow and long day at the office.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Predatory displacement does occur in instances, as mentioned above. Yotes often push out red fox. Grey fox tend to fare better than red when faced with coyotes, and seem to be able to share territories. Their ability tomove up treesis a prime reason. I've seen a litter or two of grey's 8-12 feet up in a hole of a tree. Pretty resilient.

I'm trying to think of other predatory displacement issues (outside of dogs), but I can't think of any off my hand. They are rare, but do occur. I believe there may be some relating to predatory birds.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

jhoffman, I know it sounds wierd but he really did go on like a "retreat" I guess you would say and live on a reservation for like a year. I always laugh at him about it!

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Phade, I still say there are others, but I hate sounding like a know-it-all. Its well documented how lynx drive out bobcats, once the food source is comprimised in any way. Snowshoes and grouse, two cat staples, are both cyclic, as are those two cats. Bears tolerate each other, but again, its the fact that blacks can climb that keeps them in business in big bear country. Ask a northern trapper what happens to his line once a wolverine starts running it. Like I said, at the risk of sounding like a k.i.a., its not just canines, but all predators. Yes, they do tolerate each other in some situations, and doughboy makes a valid point on how prey control predators too. Its both, for different reasons.

Jhoffman, I too like the debate. I only mention not being offended, almost tongue in cheek, because I seem to be contradicting the majority here again, isnt that how it usually is with me? Lol, lets keep the debate open. Thats what these forums are for.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Sounds good to me Bill -
and what's your opinion on this pic - its hard to tell if it is a young griz or a brown phase black bear - I didn't see it first hand so that makes it all the more dificult.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

If it is a griz it contradicts what everyone says about them not beeing able to climb - i have heard that they can and will climb a tree if they have to but prefer not to - I mean seriously what out there is going to force a griz to do anything it doesn;t want to do.

Airborneguy - I was just mess'n with you when i made that post - I believe you my brother goes and does stuff like that with a couple of his friends at least once a year. Last summer they when hiking in Maine for a month and just lived off what they found in the woods and the fish and animals that they were able to get. They ran into some guy way up in the woods that was live trapping black bears and doing studies on them - some grant from the government don't know all the details though. The guy walked into my brothers camp one night and told them they might want to relocate cause they were only about 50 yards from one of his bait stations.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Griz will climb trees until they reach a large body size and then will become reluctant to do so. Their pawsare not really designed to grip trees and their claws are too thick to adaquately penetrate..

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

God I would love to be able to do that. Next year I was thinking about taking two weeks off in a row and doing something like that here in NY. Two weeks is the most I can take at once.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

99% sure thats a color phase black bear...long snout, ears, etc.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

Im with jackelope, thats a color phase black bear. Definitely not a grizz, from my experience with bear anatomy.

RE: hey, let's talk about cougars again
 

That's what I was thinking too - I thought it was a very young griz if it was a griz at all.