I, wholeheartedly, support a license increase. I would have no problem personally paying twice what we pay now for the privelege of hunting in PA's woods. Think about how much some folks pay to do some activities that don't last one tenth as long as some of our hunting seasons and I guarantee that they don't get the enjoyment out of it that we do.

You're right it is the best bargain going.I dish out way more than 1k a year for activities my kids are in and I don't even get to spend the time with them while they're doing it.

Now think about it was it the deer that were responsible for the lack of regrowth or was it due to the forest canopy not allowing light to the forest floor. If the deer herd were decimating all the new growth you would never have seen it in the areas hit by the tornado. The regrowth you are seeing now in the areas with a mature canopy most of these seedlings will not survive to maturity due to a lack of sunlight. In the areas that were opened up the regrowth will be everywhere you look. Hopefully someone like your forester friend hits those areas and plants oak, apple, cherry, crab apple seedlings so these areas are not over taken by a more invasive specie like maple or birch The problem we now face is we have lowered the deer population and there is no hard and fast plan on paper to begin opening up the forest through timbering and promoting regrowth and replanting. So the areas that may have been over browsed will receive little if any help in stimulating regrowth

I am totally amazed at how people blame the deer population for all the forest regrowthproblems, especially the people on here. Seldom is it mentioned about the canopy or acid rain.


You brought up a good point, bowhunter2117, when you said about the tornado.

I hunt in Greene Co. and there is NO problem with forest regrowth there. some places are so thick that you can't even get down and crawl through. { I have first hand experience in this area}


The PGC uses the excuse for selling so many doe tags is because of the over browsing of deer causing forest regeneration problems. Why then, is the PGC selling so many licenses in WMU 2a? There is no forest regrowth issue in that area. They sell doe tags to make money, lots of money. Now that all the hunters aren't seeing deer they say that they had to stop the over browsing to save the trees.

Before they wanted to decrease the doe population to help the deer herd be more healthy and to make way for Gary Alt's super bucks and to balance the buck to doe ratio. Everyone remembers Gary holding up those antlers and showing the size difference, as he tried to sell the AR idea. What's Gary doing now? Selling used cars?


I understand that the price on everything goes up, and the PGC needs more money. But I also have a hard time paying more money to the PGC for how bad of a managment job they have done. They bit the hand that fed them.

They tried to lie and say hunters weren't going off of the road far enough to find the deer that they said were definitely there. Now theyadmit that maybe there weren't as many deer as they originallythought there was. ( Mismanagement at its finest



I'm to the point that I would like to see the PGC fold up and the DCNR take over. The hunting here is already bad. I'll just start hunting West Virginia again. I might even take up my buddy's offer to hunt Maryland and to hell with PA. At least I'll be paying the game commissioners of those other states for a job well done.


The PGC is the laughing stock of the United States, for their mismanagement practices.

Just a few years ago they were on the news forpublic relation issues and how they treat people. I even heard that Johny Carson had a joke about the PGC in his monologue.

When I hunt in other states and meet their Game Commission officials, they always treat you nice and ask how the hunting is going. Here in PA they act like you are a criminal right off of the bat. One time I actually got interregated for being in the woods armed only with a camera. They checked the camera all out and checked my license. Ask me all kinds of questions of why I had a camera. I had to show ID to match the license on my back. I had a camera for crying out loud. It should not have mattered whose license was on my back. I was on private ground, I might add.

I think the PGC would get what it deserves if they went belly up.

I know some of you will preach of how bad it will be when the dcnr is holding the reins, but right now, I don't care. I'll just hunt in one of my neighboring states and gladly pay the extra money to them instead of the idiots who manage things in this state.

bowhunter,light is ceratinly an issue or lack of in many cases.That tornado area regenerated because it's a huge area and it overwhelmed the deer.That regeneration also increased recruitment,provided cover and the herd exploded.Unfortunately the surrounding forests got hammered and now there's no understory.At this point,the growth in the tornado area is out of the reach of the deer and now everything that gets cut has to be fenced.While light is a big compenent with regeneration,especially oak,there should still be an understory in a mature forest.Many prefered browse species are shade tolerant but the deer hammer them around here because the habitat is so poor.When the habitat is stressed,it takes few deer to impact it even more.Also,while deer aren't the only factor effecting regeneration,the carrying capacity is much lower in pole andsaw timber than it is in seedling/sapling stands.Since much over Pa is old growth,the carrying capacity is much lower than it used to be.Cutting more timber is an option but if you cut too much,you'll be in the same position again in abot 10-15 years.

Windwalker,the situation in 2a is much different than the situation in 2G.2A has alot of agriculture and fragmented habitat will always support more deer than contiguous forests.Besides,farms aren't considered as deer habitat by the PGC because we can't expect farmers to foot the bill for our hobby.On top of that,the herd in 2G was overpopulated for way too long compared to 2A.how good was the hunting in 2a during the 50's?You just haven't had the numbers of deer in 2a like 2G had for the same amount of time.They're trying to stop the probelm before you end up in the same situation 2G faces today.

While acid rain is a factor,it's overated.Explain why the exclosures around here are full of new growth and the areas that weren't fenced have nothing but non-prefered species growing?The same rain falls inside the fence as it does outside.Don't say they treat the exclosures because they don't.I'm on a deer management committe for 9500 acres of private land in clearfield county.We erected exclosures and the growth inside the fences is phenominal.We didn't traet these areas in any way.We just kept the deer out.Outside the fences,there's no stump sprouts at all,zero.We did a browse impact study last year with PSU and found that 75% of the property had no regeneration at all,even though several hundred acres were recently timbered.Out of the regeneration that was present,75% of it was composed of beech.59%of that was moderately to severly browsed.the deer did this damage.It wasn't acid rain or a lack of light.Twenty minutes from my house,the PGC cut about 100 acres back in 1992.That area turned into a field within 5 years.Six years after they cut it,they put up dozens of small exclosures all over that meadow.today those exclosures are too thick to crawl through yet the outside has nothing but grasses growing.Nothing was planted except a few apple trees and no treatments were used.Explain that.Just a few hundred yards away,they exclosed a section of mature forest with a heavy canopy.After a few years,there was red oak(which will die unless the canopy is opened)cucumber magnolia,red maple,sugar maple,witch hazel,hobblebush and even trillium.Outside the fence there's nothing but ferns and laurel.Explain that.The only thing excluded was the deer.The same amount of rain falls inside the fence as outside and the soil content is the same.there are literally hundreds of these examples all accross the northern tier that were done by scientists.they have a pretty good grasp on how much impact the deer have on regeneration.the evidence is so overwhelming that you can't deny the impact deer have on the forests once you see it.Every now and then an exclosure fails for a variety of reason.However,by and large,deer are one of the biggest factors.It's been scientifically proven and anyone that argues otherwise has never seen the facts.

Doug, I'd swear you work for the PGC.

Back in the 60's-70's there were tons of deer in 2g.


Now, in the year 2006 we have a regeneration problem. Was there a problem back in the 60's with the habitat supporting the deer population. It would seem to me, that there would be a major problem in the 70's. But I never heard about it back then.


Nature has a way of taking care of itself. If the high deer populations could not be supported, by their habitat, they would starve off in a few seasons. As cruel as it sounds thats what would happen.

I'm sure that deer do have an impact on the regeneration of a forest, but I believe it is overated.

If tornados can knock down a few trees and suddenly there is regenerationwhere did that regeneration come from? Did the Regeneration fairy come along and waive her magic wand?


Just the mere fact that trees are knocked down by a tornado and suddenly there is regrowth proves something. It proves that there is not enough sunlight getting through. You even seem to admit that in your above post. You stated that the deer were overwhelmed and their population exploded.

So I ask you Doug, How did those tornados cause the regeneration?

How?

What "overwhelmed" the deer?

The regeneration caused by what?

Did the tornados cause sunlight to be let in?

YES....YES.....YES

Since the deer population is near extinction up in 2G, you should see all kind of forest regeneration in the very near future, everywhere up there. I will predict that it won't happen.

Try this experiment the next time you are out with your Game Commission buddies. Plant a few trees out in the open where they get plenty of sunlight. Then plant a few back in under the thick ( mature forest) canopy. Come back in three years and look at the difference.

No,I don't work for the PGC.Yes there were tons of deer in 2gduring the 60's,70's and 80's and the herd crashed after the brutal winter of 1977 just as it crashed in 2004.The reason we're in the situation now is because we had way too many deer for too long.All of the forests that were in the sapling stage while the herd was increasing are now out of the deer's reach.

I never said light wasn't important for regeneration but not all browse species are shade intolerant.Oak is and oak needs sunlight.I said that in my last post.The reason that tornado area regenerated so well is because it's about a half mile wide and miles and miles long.It overwhelmed the deer because it was so big,they couldn't possible overbrowse it.

I am seeing excellent signs of regeneration in many places of 2G where the herd has been reduced.I just vistedone area in Moshannon state forest that has oak so thick you can't walk through it.The stump sprouts are over 6 feet tall since they did a shelter wood cut in this area two years ago.they did another ever bigger shelter wood cut about 6-7 years ago and there isn't an oak sprout left standing because there were way too many deer.

Explain why the regeneration is excellent inside of these exclosures and almost non-existant outside.

Ther herd is far from extinct in 2G.You have to hunt where the habitat is better.I hunted two dmap properties this year for a total of 2 days.I killed a doe on the firstmorning of archery on one state forest.Then I hunted on another state forest in Sinneahoning on the last day of rifle and killed another one.I hunted where they logged an area in 2001 and saw over 20 deer by 10:00am.There was no browse any where else and the browse that was there was reduced to black birch and striped maple.That's what happens in poor habitat.the deer concentrate on the few areas with adequate food during the winter and strip it clean and it doesn't take many deer to do it.

I can't really comment on the enclosures because I'd have to see the difference myself. I'm sure the vegatation would do better inside because it is protected from thedeer. I did see some enclosures in the Allegheny National Forest but I didn't see much of a difference in or out of it. I'm not sure what those enclosures were for.

I hope you are understanding my point. The tornados knocked down trees and almost instantly there was regeneration.

You just stated again about an area you visited and saw stump sprouts over 6 ft tall.

Timbering + sunlight = stump sprouts

It seems that the area you got your deer at this year was recently timbered. What attracted those 20 deer to that area.
Its like this. they timbered, regrowth started, well, regrowing. Then the deer came and ate back the regrowth. Correct?

It would seem to me that the easiest way to regenerate the forest would be to cut the trees down.

Some people want to just shoot off the deer and expect the forest to regenerate that way. That way will take forever. Cut the darn trees down and as early as the next summer it will start regenerating.


You hunt areas that were recently timbered and see 6ft stump sprouts. You see areas that tornados knocked down trees and you say the deer were overwhelmed. Wouldn't it seem to you that the quickest way to improve the deer habitat up there is to cut down the trees so the forest can start regenerating.

You basicly admit that when areas are timbered, regrowth starts almost immediately.


The areas you hunt are timbered areas. The deer were attracted to that area by the new growth. Of course the deer will eat it back to nothing, theres nothing else to eat because the thick canopy in other areas won't let enough sunlight in to let anything grow. Deer go to where the food is.

Do you hunt in areas where there is a thick canopy over head? How many deer do you see there compared to areas that were timbered?


Let's face it. the deer were attracted to timbered areas because of the regrowth. It doesn't seem all that hard to understand. Cut the trees and the habitat and carring capacity will increase.



JUST CUT THE TREES!

I just reread my post.

I will comment on the enclosures. The plants inside are protected from the deer. The deer are starving because there is nothing to eat.

The reason there is nothing to eat is because the canopy won't let anything grow fast enough to supply the deer with something to eat.


Here's an experiment to try:

Take an area and enclose it

Then take an area just out side the fence and timber the heck out of it.

Come back in 3years and see which area has more regrowth.


My money is on the area that was timbered, even with the starving deer eating at it.

Which area is your money on?

My opinion is that deer or no deer, a mature forest will not have any regeneration. It is plain as day that as a forest matures, the shorter trees die and fall. These trees did not die off from deer eating at their trunks, they died from being choked out. The only vegetation on the floor of a mature forest would be species that thrive in shadows. How many native tree species in PA will sprout from seed and thrive and grow in shadow? I know that hemlocks will barely exist in shadows but they won't grow one foot in a decade under those conditions. Hardwoods will not grow PERIOD. We need large scale clearcutting, the uglier the better. Where did this mature hardwood paradise in PA come from in the first place? CLEARCUTTING! 100 years ago this state looked like the surface of the moon. Had that not happened, we would not even have deer today. As a matter of fact, deer were reintroduced to this state. There just weren't any. Nothing gets mother nature off her lazytail quicker that large scale devastation. Mature trees.......Public manace.