RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

The biggest reason is also the simplest...its not bowhunting.

What is the difference to you if someone is sitting in a tree stand some distance away from you if they are using a longbow, recurve, compound or cross bow?

You could ask the same question about flintlocks, too, and it wouldn't change the answer.

I have NO problem with a separate season for crossbows - but crossbow hunters are not bowhunters. They do not belong in bow season.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

THE SOURCE your missing the point you and other archers do, and i mean you and others do'nt own the season or the woods. Like i said earlier iprobably beenhunting, when you were just a dream in your dads family jewels. There is room for all of us NY. a big place and theres enough of game if they (dec)get there sh-t together. PS i pay tax on my stuff just like its archery equipment, federal law saysso its archery equipment. Have a good day every one! Rich

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

The Source and RWK,

I think you are both right. Yes a crossbow hunter is not a bow hunter, nor would it fit under the classification of archery.... so I agree we possibly need a seperate season, but what we need is for bowhunters, which I am, to stand up and speak and say, why not give them a time frame for themselves. Okay, it is a start, but I think too many of the bowhunters are sitting back and saying let it take its course, as I have said before if that would have happened in the 70s with the traditionalist or archers, or bowhunters, the compound bow would be just and I believe just a museum piece, rather they kept fighting and we see where it came.

And yes RWK the woods belong to everyone not just hunters. It is all in words.... and we should not be squabbling over words but sqaubbling with the law makers and some others for a week or weekend or three days, whatever it takes to get it on the books. Then we can move forward, but REALLY,REALLY, REALLY..... until we all say, we agree that crossbows should be allowed, then we ALL sit down and say, hey how are we gonna approach this and come up with a plan, that bowhunters, gun hunters, muzzleloader and maybe even blow gun hunters along with crossbow hunters can agree on..... then move forward. ANd I am not sure how much older RWK is then me, but I do know, if we don't stop fighting in the ranks..... the antis will begin to exploit it, if they all ready haven't...... believe me, military experience tells me that a "team" that doesn't fight together, doesn't win!!!!!!!!:(

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

thesource,
With all due respect, that really doesn't answer the question. That's just a statement and it doesn't address what differrence it makes to your bow hunting if somebody is sitting in another tree with a cross bow vs a compound. Lot's of things are "not bowhunting" but certainly have no significant negative impact on your sport. How about if somebody is in a tree stand just with a camera? That's not bowhunting. Really, please answer the question. How are you negatively effected by a guy in your area cross bow hunting any more than you would be by the guy hunting with a compound. WIth regard to the flintlock, although I wouldn't have a problem with that eitherI could at least understand theargument that it makes a lot of noise when it shoots, thus disturbing the game more than archery equipment (including xbow) but for the life of me, I just can't see how anybody is adversely effected by the xbow vssome other kind of bow.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Sylvan, that is a good point. Compound, tradition, or crossbow, what is the difference?

I still say we need to stop working together and quit splitting ourselves.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

This is a standard question that every pro crossbow guy feels compelled to ask and feel clever about.

Its irrelevant....I believe the true significance is at a higher level than our personal hunting ground, don't you think?

For example - How are you negatively effected by a guy getting mugged in Central Park while you are walking in Times Square?

You are not - but that doesn't mean that you should condone muggings.

I believe you already understand that it is the principle of the thing - bows aren't crossbows, crossbows aren't bows - and are just trying to be clever.

Crossbows need to be discussed and decided based on the operational and functional aspects - not on some imaginary single hunter in a single tree causing no negative effect.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

So its clear, by your refusal to answer, that someone hunting with a cross bow doesn't effect you any more than someone hunting with a recurve, longbow or compound. Thank you.

Your comparison to the mugging is just ridiculous. You are comparing a clearly feloneous act with that of someone deer hunting. Come on! We're discussing whether or not a cross bow should be allowed as a legal hunting implement during the archery season. So far, you haven't presented any argument against it other than to use your words, "its not bowhunting".As far as I'm concerned, those who have argued to allow it have won the debate hands down.

Personally, I don't really care. I'll be using my compound regardless of whether the xbow is made legal or not.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Personally, it won't impact me either. Private property can be posted "No Crossbows" in a blink of an eye.

Because we are shielded from the effect, does that mean there will be no effect?

That's why your question is a dumb one.

You could hunt in bowseason with a .300 WSM and it would have no impact on my hunting.

You need to raise your arguement to a higher level - principle, operation, function.

Do crossbows BELONG in bow season?

When we can all agree on the answer to THAT question, then we can begin to discuss what the impact might be.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

How about if we present the debate this way... The archery season is replaced totally by a cross bow season. Then we can argue whether or not the recurve, longbow and compound can be used during cross bow season. No my original question is not dumb at all. You desperately want it to be dumb because it exposes that you have no legitamate argument against xbowuse in the archery season. Like I said, as far as I'm concerned you've clearly lost the debate. In fact I'd say you really haven't even shown up for it. No disrespect intended, I do understand you just don't want it around you but I just don't see that you've presented any legitamate argument.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I asked you to explain what the effect is, but you haven't done it.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Sure, why not? I'm still waiting for a reason why it shouldn't be.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Sylvan, I'd like to attempt and answer that question for you.
Archery Hunters are found to be some of the most ethical hunters in the hunting woods. We take great pride in the sport we all love. We spend uncountable hrs tinkering with our equipment, practicing yr around to ensure we grip anchor and release perfectly every shot. We know a lack in practice often results in poor shooting. We attend archery shoots, 3d's. This on top of the time in the woods scouting, our setups to get that deer within close range for a undetectable draw & shot. More times than not it doesn't happen for us, but we love it all the same. Its the excitement of being out there, and witnessing things other forms of hunting don't get. Thats one reason archery season is so long. The odds of being successful with archery equipment in a shorter season would be much less. Can you honestly say other type of hunters put in more time to their sport than archery hunters? We are a very proud group!
Now you bring in a different weapon, one that takes less time to learn to shoot well. Heck I watched a group of city slickers on Ted's Dead or Alive show shoot the crossbow at a target, and hit bullseyes. It was the first time any had ever shot a weapon of any kind! Its also obvious that the crossbow has the advantage of not needing to be drawn to shoot at oncoming game. Anyway you look at it the crossbow IS NOT archery equipment that we presently use in Archery season. It has distinctive advantages over present archery equipment. No other NY Big Game season has different weapons that carry such a significant difference or advantage. Should our present archery season be any different. Why should we taint it with a superior weapon? Granted if you have two hunters in treestands with a bow & X-bow its not going to effect them. But I can guarentee you the X-bow has better odds with his equipment of getting a shot off over a compound! If you look at the harvest reports, and user statistics of states that allow both weapons in a season. You'll see that the X-bow hunters harvest more deer, and is used by more hunters. The Ohio reportsare well known by archery organizations. Is it fair to us archery hunters to allow that sort of weapon into the same woods at the same time? A weapon that takes less practice to use, and even less effort to harvest game with, becasue of its advantages. Is it fair to lower the very ethics we've lived by, and loved for so many yrs?

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

BuckAlley hate to tell you i pay federal excise tax on all my xbow equipment that i buy, if uncle sam says its archery equpment its than it is. Now if you do a little studing about the xbox you will find out that is not very good past 40yrds, and its not this super weapon you think.When i was able to use a bow i got a deer at around 75yrds with my bow,i know but i did it.Like i said earlier i hunted in states that permit xbows and i did not run into any other hunters, so i don't think us guys will kill or contaminate your woods,while we hunt.Wake up folks you will get old, and your body will give you fits, so if your like me ,i still want and will continue to huntand enjoy the outdoors the good lord gave us. OH! you think there easy carry one around for awhile you'll change your tune. Rich

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

BuckAlley,
So essentially you are saying you oppose the xbow in archery season because it isn't fair. Because the xbow hunters have a better chance of harvesting a deer. Well I don't see this as a question of fairness at all. Is it fair to use a compound 300ft/sec plus arrow when their are guys out there with a long bow? If everyone has the same opportunity then in my opinion it is fair. introducing the xbow in archery season won't effect archers. You admitted that. So the archer has the choice to continue hunting with his recurve or compound or try the xbow if he wants to improve his chances. Its up to everybody. That's fair!

A line like this is really offensive to me and I believe a lot of other hunters. Where do the "archery hunters" get off with the attitude that it is for them to "allow" any type of activity during the season. The woods are owned by all not just the archery hunters.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I see it this way if it is your bag then do it I only ask this much.
Please practice with your xbow & please be sure of your shot just as I have to with my compound.
I don't think that is to much to ask!
Have fun hunting.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

You saying you can't do the same thing with the modern compound bow?

Like what the compound is more accurate and less cumbersome to shoot.I bet a arrow carries more KE and pentration then a bolt. So what are all of the advantages that a crossbow has?

I don't shoot year round and have no problem becoming deadly efficiant when I hit the woods. You do noy have to shoot a compound year round to be able to hunt with it. Maybe trad equipment but not a compound.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

CROSSBOW MYTH. It turns out that crossbows are taxed at the same rate as centerfires....its just a matter of what bucket you put it in.

The fed's absolutely DO NOT define a crossbow as a bow. If they did, why would the USFWS allow bows for waterfowl but not crossbows?

They may list it as "archery" for tax purposes, but when it comes to hunting its a different category. I think we should follow Uncle Sam's lead.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

A CROSSBOW DOES NOT NEED TO BE DRAWN IN THE PRESENCE OF GAME

A CROSSBOW DOES NOT NEED TO BE HELD AT FULL DRAW BY MANUAL POWER WHILE LINING UP A SHOT

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Any others?

They have a bow out now that has a 99% let off, so I guess that should be illegal.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

What bow is that????????????????????????????

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

http://www.conceptarchery.com/concept99.htm

They have several models that have a 99% let off.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

As TJ pointed out the crossbow has distinctive shooting advantages, becasue is does not need to be drawn on its game. Its always cocked and loaded. I don't classify a weapon as archery equipment that is mounted on a gun like stock, and fully cocked, and ready to fire by pushing a trigger. That my friends is a huge advantage over any of todays archery equipment. The gun like technique used to shoot a crossbow makes it a easier weapon to shoot accurately over drawing, anchoring, and releasing a arrow accurately from a compound. I don't see how anyone here can denie that.
Personnally I myself am tired of others calling archery hunters selfish, becasue were simply protecting the archery woods from a superior weapon. We are no different than many other forms of hunting that would protect their sport from other superior means, that aren't ethical to tradition, and harvest means. Noone is stopping any hunter able to shoot a bow from enjoying the archery seasons. The season is there for all to enjoy that are willing to take the time to learn to shoot a bow, and be capable of making aaccurate shot on game. I don't see the need to legalize another weapon, becasue others don't want to take the time to use present day archery equipment. Why dosomefeel we need the crossbow for others to enjoy archery seasons when the opportunity for them exists?I'm not talking about the physically challenged here, see my post on page 4. I myself as a archer invite, encourage anyone to come enjoy the woods with bow, and arrow. Many Hunting clubs, Pro shops, and bowhunting organizations all do the same. We hold archery events to promote our sport. NY Bowhunters has done wonders for this sport, and worked hard for all of us to enjoy it. But yet I've read comments here about them being selfish ,calling archery season as "their" season. Has anyone bothered to mention the good they have done for all of us here. The youth camps, and youth hunts they run promoting our great sport. The physically challenged equipment they have developed for the handicapped, and physically challenged hunts they put on. NYB is the reason the DEC decided to allow our recieved doe mgmt permits to be used during early archery season. But becasue they work to stop a weapon that is not technically a bow, and arrow we call them selfish. Plus every other bowhunter who doesn't want the crossbow in archery season by hunters who are capable of shooting present day bows as also being selfish. I don't feel I'm being selfish, I'm only protecting the archery woods from a superior weapon. The archery woods is open to anyone who wants to enjoy it with a bow, and arrow. Why more don't, but will bash bowhunters for enjoying whats available is beyond me! The opportunities are available for them to enjoy the same as I do.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

O.K. fine, keep the xbow out of archery season. Lets just take the last 2 weeks of october and make it an xbow season. If you choose to use your compound, recurve or longbow during that season that will be o.k. too.

The archery woods? What the heck is that?

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I don't agree that the X-bow is a superior weapon over todays compound.

We have the advantage when it comes to KE and Penetration.

Crossbows are cumbersome and noisy.

Your not shooting any farther with a crossbow.

Superior weapon come on.

I'll be honest I've hunted about 20 years with a bow now. I've never been busted drawing on a deer and I've killed plenty.

Now your putting into the equation bow with let offs up 99%.

I haven't shot my Hoyt for a month and a half and I bet you I could walk out back and put five arrows in the kill at 25 yards.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Boy if that dont say it all!

That comment is so funny it does not even warrent a intelligent response.

Protecting the archery woods?huh?
Superior weapon?...Please do some research on the subject.

NYB has time and time again proven themselves selfish.Thats a fact.Your president is boarderline foaming at the mouth,attacking the NWTF and others who have promoted crossbow for ANY reason.FACT

You can talk all day,but your above comments prove,canabalism of our hunting is alive and well,by you and others who think"my way is best"

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

if a person is unable to pull a bow back then I strongly support crossbows for THEM however I don't think they should be available to everyone during archery season reg . season shot whatever you want

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Thank you John.As you may have seen from my posts in this thread,that is exactly what Ive been trying to promote.Some,including the NYB are so adimatley apposed to crossbows,they view them as non-hunting impliments.With no place in NYS for them.Past emails from the president of NYB cover bases such as "the crossbows companys just want more revenue"<duh>"If we allow handicap hunting with crossbows,it wont stop there" and other nonsensical rants.The "superior weapon theory" is one of the funniest though.It reminds me of the stink put up many years ago when compounds entered the hunting stage.Ive even seen past threatening non-support for the NWTF over this from NYBpres.Sad to say the least.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

everyone was able/capable to shoot shotguns & rifles yet someone had the sense/vision to allow us to be able to hunt with muzzleloaders. now why was that?? I would say extra opportunities for sportmen to get in the field and hunt. sounds good to me. as this does. I personally won't go out and buy one, I have enough to do with bow, rifle, shotgun, and ML. As far as NYB, "they" come across as: "don't think about touchingOUR deer season. there is NO room for anyone else, or anything else inOUR woods." that sounds selfish to me. they made that evident last year with the new proposed season alterations. I personally have no use for "them". I see nothing they have done for my bowhunting experience . but they did, ineffect, reduce my potential ML experience. ( I am happy they are haveing youth shoots, etc- I have never seen one however)

I am using " " because I am not sigling anyone out here, just what I perceive as the NYB position in general.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Once again I'm being commented on for specific sentences I write w/o fully reading everything I've wrote in this posting. At least thats the only conclusion I can come too with comments users are making on my posts.
Let me try & rephrase or further explain.

I've never wrote I feel the Crossbow is a Superior weapon by means of yardage, energy, and penetration. I've stated I feel its a superior weapon in ways that it doesn't have to be drawn to make a shot, and the factof it being mounted on a gun like stock makes it easier tomaster its shooting abilities over a bow. Even if as some have pointed out you don'tshoot your bow all year, or don't practice for several months, and feel you can go out back and hit your marks first of. It still took you much practice, and time with your setups to get to that point in your abilities. I highly doubt many can pickup a new bow prior to never previously shooting one, and hit bullseyes perfectly, and go out the next day to hunt with it. Yes some may do that, but its not the majority or sensable.The crossbowis designed to shoot accurate with less practice. If it wasn't the case then why would anyone capable of drawing a bow, and shooting accurate with one, choose the crossbow over a bow?
I have been busted drawing my bow, I can think of at least3 circumstances this past fall, that if I had a crossbow over my present bow I'd gotten off a vital shot. If you've never been busted drawing you've been fortunate.
Regardless of what many of you feel about NYB. I see the good, and bad in this organization. I've been with them for several yrs now. I may not agree with everything they do, but I have seen alot of good they've brought this sport. They are the only major NYS bowhunting organization dedicated to bowhunting, period! Yes they were the main push behind doe permits being allowed during archery season, regardless of how funny you think that is. Its a bonus most of us have enjoyed. The NWTF dispute mentioned was brought about over someone hacking into the NWTF NYS chapter presidents computer, and sent a phony e-mail to the NYB president. The NWTF, and NYB have worked together for many yrs on the youth camp programs.
I'll reiderate my feelings once again. I don't feel legalizing the crossbow for archery only seasons is necessary. I don't agree with bringing in that weapon to archery only seasons. I have stated earlier I do feel it could have a place in NYS, perhaps if had its own separate season I would consider one myself. I also feel for the handicapped persons that can no longer use archery equipment. Although there are means available with devices like drawlocks, and applying for a MODIFIED Bow permit to help many in that situation. There are circumstances where the crossbow would best suit them. For those situtations I do feel the DEC needs to lighten up on the qualifications for the Crossbow permit. But I can't begin to understand everyones personnally situation. For this I've never done anything against a Bill regarding the handicapped, and the crossbow. I respect everyones thoughts, and feelings on this topic. I ask you please to respect mine as well.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

"The NWTF dispute mentioned was brought about over someone hacking into the NWTF NYS chapter presidents computer, and sent a phony e-mail to the NYB president."

Thats a crock of ****.Let me introduce myself.I am one ofthe drafteesof theoriginaly introduced handicap crossbow legislation in NYS.I am also a former Catskill-Hudson Valley Handicap Director for...YA READY...TED NUGENT UNITED SPORTMEN OF AMERICA...Ring a bell?it should..your president refered to myself and others as "groupies" at the time.I hold no animosity toward ANY hunting or shooting organization,never did .never will,its a fact on my own site,but denial is bull****!I have the original e-mails,I will not share out of respect for fellow hunters.I am also a 16 year veteran of website development.Give me a break.Backpeddaling only works in person if the other guy is stupid.Im not gonna respond to this any longer because I can see its a dead issue with respect to some.I ask that those who do care fight not only for the rights of the disabled,but also for the rights of hunters.THAT INCLUDES CROSSBOWS!Dont even tell me NYB didnt change its talkback because of crossbow,because IT DID!Yep outright banned folks in favor,no room for arguement,your minds made up...PATHETIC.If you taking credit for doe permits,which is rediculous,you better check what you done to the southern zone fiasco.........

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Yea - and they had the "sense/vision" to make it a different season, too.

Are you crazy? They protected your bowhunting experience from the stupid and ill planned MZ experience.

Are you a bowhunter, or not? How you answer the question will explain a lot about your position on MZ....AND crossbows.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I feel it is....

If you compare the typical hunting crossbow to the typical hunting compound, the crossbow wins hands down. KE, initial velocity, drop.......all of them are advantage crossbow.

Sure, we can find some specific examples that would buck the trend, but that doesn't change the fact that the crossbow has ballistic advantage. Add to that the advantage of not having to draw or hold, 1 plane sighting, fixed ballistics, etc.....

Its a different animal. It does NOT belong in bow season.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I ama HUNTER. I love bow season, I love gun season, I love ML season.
I don't think they necessarily need to include xbow in bow season or not all of bow season. but I think there could be room for them somewhere. along with late bow/ML, maybe for a week in the beginning of bow or a week somewhere in gun season????

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I'm stunned.....a rational response (and I'm not being sarcastic.) I am used to all or nothing rhetoric, yelling, screaming, gnashing of teeth.

I agree. No reason not to include xbow somewhere, but no reason to force it into all of bow season. Your proposal sounds well thought out and fair, and I would help you support it.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Can you back that statement up?

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

This link has a comparison chart.

http://www.disabledrights.org/cases/OR_Report.rtf

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Where are they going to find time for that seperate season?You willing to give up a week of hunting with the bow to give them taht seperate season? I'd personally rather share a week then loose a week, or should they just get to hunt after the gun season?

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

IRONHORSE - can't make your point without the profanity?

Steve

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

I haven't read this entire thread so maybe this option has already been posted. Several of my friend's fathers stopped bow hunting when they hit their 60's-reasons were inability toshoot their bows accurately enough either due toeyesight issues orstrength lossin their upper body. These people loved to hunt as they continued to gun hunt another 10-15 years. I have never used a cross bow but I am assuming that the single plane sighting and having the bow already cocked would have enabled these older hunter's to still enjoy the sport of "bowhunting". I feel that the rules should be loosened up so besides disabled hunter's anyone over the age of 60 should have the option to use a crossbow in the regular archery season.

RE: N.Y. Crossbows
 

Mr. Ironhorse you continually seem to want to basically call me a liar, back peddler, cannabal, and I'm full of Bull****, and a crock of s**t!! If you can't respond to my postings with more respect please don't bother at all.
The Bull**** you speak of was sent to me as a e-mail from the former NWTF NYS Chapter president himself. It was sent out to several members at the time of occurance informing the NYS chapter membership of the computer hacking incident.Call it what you want, butthats what I recieved, period.
You claim you hold no animosity against any hunting organizations. Somehow I find that very hard to believe with your comments about NYB!!!
If you want to speak of back peddling, didn't the original crossbow campaign advertise the crossbow with accurate shooting capabilities out to 60yds in attempt to draw in more hunters? Does it advertise that now??
You cannot fully blame NYB for changes or lack of change with the Southern Tier hunting season. Yes they worked to keep the ML out of archery season, yes they tried to get the archery season extended becasue of the lost wknd for the Sat. Reg. season opener. NYB wasn't against the Sat. opener. They simply wanted time made up for the wknd lost to bowhunting. NYB wasn't againstmore ML hunting opportunity. They just didn't want it occuring during archery season.Safety was one of those reasons. The DEC wanted to place the ML in the middle of archery season. Not the wk before the Reg. season, becasue they were concerned the deer would become spooky for the reg. season opener. But yet its been that very way in the Northern Tier since the ML seasonbegan. DEC's original proposal for the ML 7 day wk. was for WMU's that had the population to warrant a earlier ML gun season. During that 7 day period noone would've been allowed to use a bow even in WMU's a ML season wasn't open. I also attended a meeting on this, and the vast majority of attendee's wasopposed to a ML season in the middle of archery season. This just wasn't NYB's feelings, it was the vast majority of NYS Hunters, including small game hunters. Thats why the proposed ML season was put aside for now. So whose in denial here???

As faras a separate x-box season. I know it seems difficult to do. But I honestly feel if the DEC would become more open to the fall season, there would be a possible way. Idon't see why the DEC cannotchange season dates, starting earlier in the fall for both zones tomake room for more opportunities.I'd like to see more ML opportunity. I don't agree 7 days in the north, and a late season only in the south is right. The northern zone could be readjusted alot to open up more time for all. Why not start N. archery Sept 1st to mid Sept.. Why not give ML season 10-14daysin the North. Perhaps a wk of X-bow, or overlap x-bow w/ ML. Why is Northern Reg season the longest hunting season, being nearly 2 months in length! At the end of the North Reg. season many of my hunting friends say to me, man I'm glad its over, they are just wore out, and had enough. Most of them agree its too long. I really feel a better system is very possible to create more opportunities for all of us.