Let's face reality in PA
 

We were having a discussion among fellows who love to hunt.One is worried about getting his son interested in hunting and the other is grandson.We were talking about the days we hunted when there were rabbits and pheasants everywhere.Land open to hunting was not a problem in those days.There were plenty of grouse in the woodlands and you would see plenty of deer on stateland.One guy hunted in Perry county and the other in Potter for rifle this year.Between the two of them they saw one tail.These guys are good experienced hunters.
The point I'm getting to is this.Some say hunting today is better then the "good old days" but I disagree.The pheasants are gone,deer numbers pathetically low on public hunting grounds,rabbits are down in numbers,grouse continue to decline,and there's alot less land open to hunting.I can understand how today's hunter is worried about getting their kids involved in the sport.
The only game animals up in populations are turkey and bear.Then again they are now questioning whether or not too many bears were killed this year.And turkeys aren't the ideal game to start a kid out in hunting.
We're bucking the trend in PA.While license sales saw a big drop this year nationwide hunting license sales actually increased.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Well lets face reality everywhere! here in Nh the same exact is happening! they are building everywhere. although i think i have seen more deer checked in this year than i can remember i think the reason for that is because the deer are restricted to smaller pieces of land making them easier to stumble accross! some or close to all of my favorite hunting spots are now houses it is really depressing! I used to love pheasant hunting, all of nh pheasant are stocked which makes them weird to hunt and two ofthe beautifull stocking sites that were local are gone. one is a golf course now and the other is a farm that is now closed and will soon be houses! I have been in nh for 15 years and have seen 2 wild rabbits the grouse are getting almost non existant the turkeys have made a huge comeback but they dont like people hunting them in peoples front yards! heeehee Some people blame the small game #'s on coyotes, which is true but they are kinda hard to hunt if they are hanging out in neihborhoods where we cant get them!!! houses are going everywhere and it is not good. NH used to be such a beautiful place with some great hunting but it is starting to look like the suburbs of boston.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Sorry to hear that browning.It's a darn shame.
Besides developement clean farming practices and predators have dwindled our smallgame populations.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Thanks for saying it germain. I totally agree

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Quality habitat is a major factor in all the animals discussed. With out good habitat you won't have wildlife. There's a recent study on snowshoe rabbits and their decline due to habitat change. Same can be said for grouse, cottontails, deer, pheasants.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

all of you guys from pa cannot be wrong. I thought at first you were just complaining, but nearly EVERYONE from pa is saying this. I use to live in se pa in bucks co before antler restrictions. honestly, I think what they did with wma vs regions/counties is ridiculous. the doe tag situation is out of control. I use to see a ton of deer in bow there. you are right too, you have to be heir to some throne to get permission on private land anymore. va is getting bad too. I think that the deer population here is alright. they need to do something about the size of the bucks shot though, some sort of antler restrictions. I have permission from a few friends for private land, but go off of that, and there are hunters everywhere. in pa, you use to just be able to walk up, say hello, tell thelandowner where you lived, and ask permission. I remember getting like a 70% 'yes you can hunt'. now, it's hard to muster the courage. my dad has gotten a buddy of mine that lives near him permission. some folks have had it with the deer in some areas. still don't get that whole doe tag allocation. yeesh.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

T, where I hunt in the North Centralit is largly a mix of ag land and woods, with plenty of cover, I understand your point about habitat in the big woods, but I can't figure out why the population of rabbits, deer, grouse, are so far down in this area with the good mix of ag and woods, and strip minds?? To me, the food and cover is here!! I also hunt posted land in the Southeast where the land owner wants the deer controlled, however this task is impossible on their 10 acres because the bounding landowners don't allow hunting. Just my 2 cents.




My last statement in my opinion is why the current WMU's will never work!!

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Hunting is different today, Germaine, but it is still hunting. When I grew up, small game was everywhere. I cut my teeth on pheasants, rabbits, and squirrels in the 1950's. Of course things are different today on the farms we used to hunt. If the farm is still a farm and hasn't sprouted houses, the farming methodology is a far cry from what it used to be. A cornfield this time of year is as bare as a baby's behind. There is nothing for a self-respecting pheasant to eat or hide in. Fencerows are gone. Where are the quail? Check the fencerows. The quail are where they are. Rabbits are plentiful, but only in areas that you can't hunt them. I got two yesterday in my backyard with the .22. I live in the country, but housing developments are making my six acre spread an island in a sea of houses.

Now, as to the deer hunting, yes it is different than it was ten years ago, but let me give you some idea of my experiences over fifty years. I started hunting in 1954 at the age of 12. I killed my first deer, a doe in doe season, in 1964. My first buck, a spike, was taken in Cameron County in 1968. Occasionally I would get lucky and draw a doe license, which was incredibly easy to fill if I drew one. Does and fawns were everywhere, but rack bucks were really scarce. One buck season opener in Black Log Valley, I saw over fifty deer. None had antlers. Of course seeing deer is fun, and it keeps one interested, but I would still rather see one nice rack buck than ten does. My second buck was also a spike, taken in 1972. During all of this time, I hunted everytime I had available. Nearly every evening in archery season and every Saturday. We got the first day of buck season off, so I could hunt then.

Our first season hunting out of our present cabin was 1987. Our cabin is located near state gamelands, and we hunt almost exclusively on that gamelands, but also on unposted land bordering it with permission of the owners. The owners are very free in giving such permission. We hunted there three years before anyone took a buck. I got my first one from the land around the cabin, state gamelands, in 1991. It was a six point. We saw lots of does, but as usual, very few bucks. The doe tag allotment got a bit more liberal by then, and we usually drew one, so we were taking does for meat. I have a record of every year we hunted at the cabin, who killed what, and during what season. From 1987 through 2000, we took a total of 19 deer. Only eight of them were bucks, and only one was an eight point. This averages out to less than two deer per year, with four guys and sometimes guests hunting an average of three days of rifle season and perhaps six to eight days in archery season. We also usually hunted the entire week after Christmas in flintlock season. That was the good old days.

Since the year 2000, we have taken fifteen deer. This is an average of three per season with four to five hunters hunting out of the cabin at most. Here is the breakdown. Please note that in 2001, no deer at all were taken. If you are interested, there are reasons for this, but they have nothing to do with whether or not deer were there.
2001-no deer taken.
2002-3 does
2003-two does, and one six point buck (first year of AR).
2004- two does, and two bucks (both six points)
2005-four does and two bucks. One 4-point (youth hunter) and one 8-point.

The absolute best year we have had hunting out of the cabin in the 18 years in which we have owned it was this past year, Germaine. We had two kids hunting with us this year. They seem to have little trouble maintaining interest in hunting, but I'll grant you, these two aren't typical kids.

The average kid raised in the suburbs or cities today has plenty of stuff to do that doesn't require both patience and lots of physical effort. He can sit in front of his TV and watch programs and be entertained without lifting a finger except to stuff his face or work the remote. He can play endlessly with his game boy. Lots of music to listen to. What does the woods have to offer than can compete in excitement with Grand Theft Auto? Still, most years I can find a kid to take out hunting, and most of them end up being hunters after the age of 21. That is another story for another time.

It is true that the future of hunting is the youngsters of today. What example do we set for them if all we do is gripe about how terrible hunting is today? They start out with a defeatist attitude. While it is true that there are few deer in the northwoods, some friends of mine who have cabins there tell me that turkeys are abundant. Grouse are there, but hunting them is always tough. I took four this fall and worked my butt off for them, since the best grouse hunting is in the old gypsy moth cover at the top of the mountain. I can always take a kid out for squirrels. there seem to be just as many of the old tree rats as ever. Pheasant hunting is a thing of the past. Even the stocked birds hold little interest to me, but I usually manage to get in one day with a bird dog. Sometimes it is at a preserve, which pales in comparison to the bird hunting in the 1960's.

Yes, hunting is different today, germaine. We might as well face facts. In some ways, it is better. In some ways not as good. It is still hunting, and I love doing it.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Over the years, I've agreed and strongly disagreed with things the PGC has done in managing our wildlife.

The one thing I've noticed is that they have ALWAYS been slow to change but even SLOWER to correct obvious mistakes.

They now admit that their method of estimating deer populations "may" be flawed. In the meantime they happily continue on this course.

No plans to adjust doe tags in 2G, no plan to bring the timber cutting up to the sustainable 1% per year, no plan to fine tune WMU's,and no real plan to attempt to open Sunday hunting.

Oh, and noreal survival plan forwhen license sales and revenue drop even further.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Anterless tags were cut by 40% in 2G last year. Look for more cuts this coming year.

PCG cannot do anything about this until the state legislators give them the authority. Sunday hunting is all under the state legislators.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Interesting thoughts and opinions in your posts.I pretty much agree with everything written here.
Turkeyhunter,I have a good bit of experience under my belt but not quite 50 years like yourself.I also remember the days of seeing 20-50 deer a day and sometimes more in Potter and Perry county.The buck to doe ratio back then seemed to be alot better up north.These were the times when I got my kids started and I have to say it was a thrill for them to scope deer throughout the day.They could hunt from sun up until sun down and see deer throughout the day.They loved it and are avid hunters to this day.Now it's hard pressed to see a few deer in a days hunt in most places in the NC.I spend my fair share of days lately with seeing no deer at all.Oh there's a few there and like this year a big buck I was after.But man I just couldn't imagine trying to keep a young kid's interest in that type of hunting.Back in the day bringing my kids up as deer were seen I could explain why they were doing such behavior and it was a good way for them to learn.
Now I do understand the habitat vs deer populations and will say there needed to be some reductions but that's a whole other issue
When we have somewhere around a 10% drop in license sales compared to a increase nationwide something is wrong.Well actually there's alot wrong.The PGC wants a license increase yet most game numbers are down.The audabon and some of these other groups need to start paying the tab also because the PGC is involved in all wildlife not just game animals.As I drank my coffee I noticed there weren't any birds outside then I saw the hawk and knew why.Predators while being protected are another reason for the lack of animals we have including birds.
OK I've started to shoot off here and get away from the subject.:D
I feel we have lost our voice here in PA as hunters.There's obviously a problem with deer management and I'm still hoping we can find middle ground between the game/habitat.I also worry that the hunter is being put aside for the extreme environmentalist agenda.And that's ashame knowing how much money we put into habitat improvements,conservation,and the economy in general.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Howdy BT,"No plan for lost revenue in license sales"

Man I agree with that one BT.Unfortunately I think they're going to make them up with additional tags like turkey and even spear chucking tags.:D
I don't want to get into the extra turkey tag here but before anybody gets too excited about this wait until they start allowing extra fall tags.Then you'll see a drop in the populations in heavily hunted areas of the state.But honestly BT I think that's how they're going to deal with loss revenue.The original plan which is in writing for the extra turkey tag was to only issue in certain WMU's using winters,springs,and hunting pressure as a guage.They get a 10% drop in hunting licenses and bam!The extra tag go statewide unlimited.
From what I'm hearing from other hunters especially the older ones next year will see an even bigger drop in license revenue.The kicker here is that they also lose money from archery and ML stamps also.
The only plan I see for lost revenue is Eddy and the DCNR licking their chops for a take over.
Then we'll have a bunch of hippies running the show.:D

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

PGC must do away with the concurrent seasons.
2 weeks to shoot a doe is way too much time.

RUMOR
Legislators are getting so much heat from hunters that they will not give the PGC their license increase untill they stop the overharvesting of doe.
Heard concurrent seasons will be done away with in 2007-2008, then they will get their increase for license.
It will then be too late for some areas.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

You know how I like when hippies run the show, well said!!!!;)

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Many things change over time - including hunting and the animals we hunt. When I started hunting in Fulton County in 1964, you could hunt all season and see only ahandfull of deer. I shot my first deer - a spike buck - in 1965. I shot my next deer -a doe - in 1969. In 1967 and 1968 there were 11 of us hunting three farms and we shot no buck deer. In 1969 the same group shot 2 buck deer. I saw and shot my second buck deer in 1972. By the mid 1970s the group had swelled to around 17 hunters and our take was typically around 8 buck deer. By the late 1980s we numbered from 20 - 24 hunters and nearly everyone had an opportunity at a buck deer through the late 1990s. The deer numbers are down somewhat as we have been concentrating on herd management (HR) on the 600 acres we control. We now have 16 hunters on 5 properties that we are managing as a club. I will admit that our sightings and taking of legal buck deer had dropped in the first three seasons of AR, but this year we had our best season ever with 13 of 16 hunters taking legal buck and only one hunter - my 86 year old father in law - that did not have a legal buck sighting. Admittedly we are hunting private land and we post and limit access to our members. But for us, it appears that the good old days is now.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Glad its working on your property may you always have success!!!!


I wish we could get the same cooperation around the grounds I hunt.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Pennsylvania is indeed in dire straits. We have tons of squirrels, some turkeys, some bears, a few groundhogs, a few deer, some rabbits, a few grouse and no pheasnats. Clearcuts are such a jumbled mess you cant hunt them. The rest of the forest is too mature for anything but squirrels. We take two cuttings of hay, which ensures death to any pheasant nests. We have coyotes to assist in removing game animals.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Some PA game are definately in bad shape. Deer numbers and harvests are way down, pheasant are all basically put and take, and bear will be in trouble if people keep killing off all the cubs. If license fees increase like they predict I see less hunters in the upcoming years and even less that will take up the sport. The only real game that is abundant are turkey. I have seen more turkey over the last few years that the previous 20. I don't know if that is good or bad but I hear a lot of people complain because a flock will eat a good number of acorns (at least that is what the biologists are telling me). I am forseparate antler and anterless seasons and smaller WMUs.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Awe gosh. I was having so much fun hunting that I didn't realize things were so bad. Maybe I oughta give it up?

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Being a Pennsylvanian myself, I too am disgusted with the PGC. It seems that all they are really interested in is money. Several years ago they were telling hunters that they weren't going far enough away from the roads, that's why hunters weren't seeing deer. The PGC said they would do fly-overs with the FLIR ( Foward Looking Infra Red) system to get accurate counts on deer in some test areas. They collected this data and presented it to the public, sighting that the deer were there. Well guess what! They used the FLIR in areas of known deer problem areas " DMAP Areas" Of coarse they will see deer in areas that farmers are having problems. They only did this to sell the public on killing more does. Because doe license = $$$ Now, today the admit that maybe their system of estimating deer populations was off. The only reason they admit it is because PA sportsmen are outraged. They only wanted to make money.

I also heard that the Pennsylvania Taxidermy Assoc. is upset with the PGC too. It seems that the PGC can't account for where all the money went from the sell of taxidermist license, and the fees for all thepeople taking the taxidermy exams to get the license.

Something is wrong with the PGC. To be honest, I'd ALMOST like to see the PGC go bankrupt. We, the sportsmen of PA, have been seriously let down. They deserve what happens. I know some of you might not agree with wanting them to go bankrupt. But seriously, how much worse can it get here in PA?

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

OK, T, you caught me getting lazy in making my point. You are correct that doe tags were cut in 2G and more cuts are likely. My point should have been that the PGC doesnt seem to haveany sense of urgencyabout what the deer density in areas like most of 2G really is. Lets face it, the concerns or the 2G guys are beginning to sound pretty serious. I think we agree that most big woods counties simply cant support the numbers of past years but the PGC doesnt seem concerned enough that things may have gone a bit too far.

As for Sunday hunting, again you are correct. Sunday hunting lies in the hands of our legislators. My point should have been that the PGC fought Sunday hunting vehemently for years and doesn't appear to be all that interested inasking the legislature for it even now when, IMHO, it is so universally accepted elsewhere and ripe for acceptance here.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

You got your facts mixed up windwalker.DCNR did the IR flyovers not the PGC.Also,they only flew over state forests,where the hunters were complaining about no deer.They did not fly over farms.I guess they decided it was best to cut their own throats last yearby decreasing the antlerless allocations.Go ahead and hope for a takeover.When DCNR is in charge of the deer herd you'll really have something to complain about if you think it's so bad now.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Don't let the facts confuse you, Windwalker. You have an opinion. Opinions are better than facts any day, aren't they?

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

"You got your facts mixed up..."

Nah, just no facts to mix up. Doesn't matter how many times folks point out that DCNR did the FLIR studies, some will still repeat that the PGC did it or ordered it done, etc. IIRC, the PGC did ask DCNR to include parts of some SGLs where they were close to state forests. Supposedly the legislature has set aside funds for more FLIR studies next year.

The US Army Corps of Engineers did their own FLIR studies at Raystown, long before DCNR got on board. I was there when the Corps biologist presented their FLIRfindings and heard people cuss and carry on about how they hunted there and knew dang well that guy was lying. So much for science vs good ol' boy logic.

Actually, DCNRpicked some of theareasbecause hunters had stated they found no deer there, not the other way around as claimed here. Their findings are available on their website for anyone that wants to see the results.

As for the statement that PA has some turkeys, some bears and some woodchucks, PA now has all-time high populations of turkeys and bear. I've been shooting woodchucksfor over 45 years, don't appear to be any shortage of them either.

Still plenty of deer around too, although my definition of plenty may not fly with those that became used to seeing 30 or 40 doe run by 'em on opening day of firearms seasons and demand a return to those days.

Beginning to think the PGC's biggest problem is having to deal with the dimwittedness of what one self-proclaimed writer calls "our sporting class".

;)

PA still has lots of bunnies. They're just now mostly on surburban lawns, many of which were farm lands not all that long ago. I too enjoyed pheasant hunting in my youth, but those days are gone for various reasons. Pheasants never belonged here, now that they're gone it's time to move on.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Pheasants did just fine until our clean farming came aboard denny.
And there aren't plenty of deer in all places in PA.Some of the NC region has been overharvested in big tracts of stateland.That's a fact.You can't blame hunters that live in those areas or have work and money invested in cabins that are passionate enough about deer hunting to want some changes.I don't here these people asking for 20-50 deer a day.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Granted that pheasants did better during previous farming practice times, but no farmer is going to go back to those practices and the PGC cannot afford to convert tens of thousands of acres of SGLs into 1950-60s farming habitat either, just to tickle pheasant hunters' fancies. I am more concerned about native PA game species, than I am about imported critters. If they want to spend money on game birds, let it be grouse and quail.

Didn't say deer were plentiful everywhere. Deer were not plentiful everywhere 20, 30 or 40 years ago either. I hunt in 3A, mostly Tioga and Potter counties, but in an area that's a combination of farms, woodlots and with a bit of big woods in the area.

We don't have as many deer there as we had five years ago, but there are no shortage of such places now in that same boat. 40 years ago there were virtually no deer there, even though the habitat was there for them backthen.

City people built camps in the NC from the 1920s on, because it was beautiful country and because there were more deer there, than closer to the cities they lived near. Times change. Now in many cases, the deer are more plentiful closer to where NCcamp owners live. If hunters want to hunt deer badly enough, some of them will have to learn to love hunting them where the deerare.

When the NC habitat rebounds in areas where overabundant deer numbers had adversely affected it for years, I suspect deer numbers will come back as the habitat improves. But hopefully not to pre-HR numbers. I figure it's why the wizardswill continue to adjustthe allocations in areas like2G.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

doug,you are right. did you know they got lost flying over clinton county,so they stopped.truth is, they did not find deer numbers they were after, so why waste money on survey.state rep hanna here wants a meeting setup with PGC here. mr.feaser says, come to harrisburg, were not coming there. i know you dont like the USP but at least they came to clinton county to discuss our deer here.more than we can get from PGC.then our DCNR says we have to learn how and whereto hunt.this was all in paper this week here in lock haven,pa.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

good post,germaine.i dont have to add anything to it.we dont want 30 deer a drive but it would be nice to go home and say you saw 10 or 15 deer for days hunt.i have friends that never saw deer the first week of season and many that saw only 2 or 3.i saw 4 deer for 2 weeks of hunting here in 2g clinton county.oh, yes, they are hiding or wayback or we dont know how to hunt anymore., even penn state said we dont know how to hunt,ha. take care

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

dennyf, can i offer some info,not being smart to you.you said 30/40 DOE ran by us.here is way it was,you could put a drive on and get 10or 12 deer a drive to come by.some of them were on next drive.you would have , maybe 5 bucks ,6 doe ,and fawns.you always hadclose to 1/3 as bucks,little ones and big ones.i did have 35 deer come by me in 1 drive once. out of that 13 were bucks with horns,rest doe and fawns and button bucks.so, if it was all DOE,i would be first to say we had too many DOE.we did not .we never shot little bucks.next year we would have alll nice bucks to hunt. out of 20 in our crew,we would get 15buck a hunting season and maybe 5 or 6 doe to keep herd in line for next year. we only shot old doe to.sorry i rambled but if we had to many DOE, i weould agree with your comment.take care

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

I'm very much in favor of native species. I have to wonder why the PGC will not further impliment their PROVEN Grouse Study Plan in other parts of the state. This study has been ongoing for over 30 years.
If we can't sustain a huntable population of Pheasants, why not proceed with a proven method of managing Grouse as is outlined in the Grouse Study? The chief Grouse Biologist at the PGC states in the report that by using this plan Pennsylvania could have Grouse numbers that would rivalMichigan, Minn., and WIto include upstate NY, and still have a very good timber harvest for revenue. Why wouldn't the agency want that kind of a situation?

As far a Pheasants are concerned the agency seems to want to cut hunter numbers by reducing the stocked bird numbers. Theywere even going to reduce the stocking numbers for the YOUTH PHEASANT HUNT had not the rank and file game farm workers come up with a few thousand birds tomaintain the figure originally designated. Imagine that taking birdsaway from the kids.

Proper wildlife management is sorely lacking within the executive management offices of the Pennsylvania Game Commission.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

NO, I think the snow cover had them screwed up, they'll start moving soon!!!!

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

hiding under snow, i never thought to look there, thanks.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

I wouldn't expect the farmers to change for pheasants Denny.But the midwest does have some fine programs on pheasant habitat improvements along with programs to open private lands to hunting.
But now that the pheasant is basically gone why not push for better grouse habitat?The PGC grouse biologist has been asking for improvements through better clearcutting practices.He also is concerned over the decreasing grouse numbers in the state.
As for deer I think it's foolish to ask folks from the NC where we have all that state land to head SW where access is limited.There's not enough land to hunt around the populated areas.It would be a dang shame to not use the thousands of acres of state land we have open to hunting.
The PGC is behind the eightball compared to the rest of the nation and they need to get with the program.They can start by paying attention to the overharvested areas of this state.
Like I said in another post,license sales increased nation wide and drastically decreased here.Something is wrong.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

"germain" you are right on the mark.

"Like I said in another post,license sales increased nation wide and drastically decreased here.Something is wrong."

Something is wrong and it's spelled M A N A G E M E N T, or the lack of it!

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Fred,they found deer in every area and didn't try to sugar coat the fact that der numbers were lower than they thought in certain areas.They ran out of time because of weather conditions and didn't get to fly over district 9.Deer numbers are certainly down in this area but being it's a huge tangled mess because of a tornado in 1985,I imagine they would have found plenty of deer.In fact,I'd be surprised if they wouldn't have found the highest dd in this area.If anything,not flying over this area hurt their cause so I doubt the reason they didn't fly over your area was because they found no deer.I don't know what part of the Sproul your talking about because they flew over huge areas of it and found deer.You need to go on their website and see for yourself.

You're correct.I do dispise the USP.They're a bunch of misguided clowns that are doing more harm to the hunters of this state by filing a baseless lawsuit.They have nothing to go on.All they keep going back to is theiracid rain theory.Yet,they can't explain why there's decent regeneration inside the exclosures.I guess they feel those fences filter out the acid rain.I heard a guy from the USP speak in this town last year.He wasn't all that radical but the way people acted at that meeting made me embarrased to call myself a hunter.That was the first time I ever felt that way.

I'm not an expert on Clinton county.I do drive through that are several times a year on my way to visit my mother.The habitat that I see when I go through that area is far less than ideal though.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

I didn't advocate that NCinhabitants drive to the suburban areas to hunt, I indicated that those from suburbiawith camps in the NC, might be better served to hunt closer to their homes for awhile, where the deer are nowoften more abundant than they currently are in many NC areas.

Agreed that more may need be done for grouse habitat on SGLs and that was part of the purpose for the grouse study: to learn what may or may not work in improving conditions for grouse. I do nothing to improve conditions for grouse on my own little parcel up north, other than to let stands of sumac and "aspen"alone, or provide brush piles for them as a byproduct of clearing some areas.

There have been grouse there since I was too young to hunt them. There have been periods when we'd flush a half dozen birds and periods whenwe only flushed a pair or two. I don't hunt them unless I've personally flushed at least three distinct pairs. They haveplenty of cover, assortedapples, berries and large stands of hemlocks. Grouse are either plentiful there, or they ain't. It's been that way as long as I can remember.

As for C-Horse's contention that rank and file workers somehow discovered extra birds to fill the plannedcutback for youth hunt stockings, that's something he may have info on. All I know is that the folks in charge made the decision to add the birds to keep closerthe number originally allocated for the youth hunt stocking.

They had X number of birds to start with. If they hadbirds toput back into theoriginalyouth hunt number, then they probablycame from some other previously-planned allocation.

Not sure where you guys got the data on hunting licenses increasing on a national basis, versus declining sales in PA. Ino longer read many hunting magazines, so it may be so. I have read that license sales and deer harvests, are declining in many of the states surrounding ours and at percentage rates not unlike ours.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

I saw the national info on a news show denny.The discussion was anti hunting vs hunting.I was surprised to see the number of hunters actually increase nationwide in these modern times.Good news though.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

You may be right about it being the DCR doing theFLIR. studies.On the PCN Network they had something on there several months ago about the deer managment program. They had several legislators asking questions to the PGC and DCNR about deer populations. One legislator ( I wish I knew his name )ask if flyovers were done over DMAP areas. The answer was YES. That same legislator and one other said they would be very interested in some of the other areas they did the fly overs because they hunted there And noticed a sever decline in the numbers of deer they were seeing.

Opinions vs. Facts.......Yeah, I guess facts are better, but it is Opinions that will make or break the PGC.

How much worse can it get? What will the DCNR do that the PGC isn't doing already?

What measurements are the PGC using to determine if deer numbers are still too high, just right, or too low?

They don't have an accurate way to guage the deer population.

I'm sure that the high deer populations in the NC part of the state did impact the habitat. But, I also feel that the mature trees and heavy tree canopy do much to prevent the new growth that deer need.

I just think that the PGC waas selling doe license to make money with no real idea of the actual deer population.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

What you need to realize is that the habitat is so degraded in many parts of the north central part of the state that there's nothing for the deer to eat during a bad winter.We were fortunate throughout most of the nineties because the winters were pretty mild.Deer depend on browse in the winter and need close to 5 pounds a day to sustain them.Take and fill a bad up with 5 pound of small twiggs and see how long it takes you to fill it up.No do it for sixty days strait and multiply that by how many deer you think that area should have.It doesn't take long to figure out that just a small number of deer can severly effect such degraded habitat.

RE: Let's face reality in PA
 

Let's face the facts; the PGC sells an exorbitant amount of antlerless tags as a source of revenue.
If the agency has to adjust the doe allocations to suit the enviornment in the North Central areas they will loose mucho bucks.
It sells "chances" on an Elk tag as a form of revenue.
It sells DMAP tags as a source of revenue.
It's going to sell a second Turkey Tag this coming year as a source of revenue.

They don't need a Board of Commissioners to direct the agency, they simply need sales reps.