Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

First off, I've never believed that the DEC has ever stocked or released coyotes or cougars in NY State. That being said, I just read in today's Olean Times Herald for people to be careful in the village of Portville because of common coyote sitings. A quote from a police chief or Officer stated that the coyotes were released in 1983 to rid the area of diseased rabbits. If that is true, could cougars also have been released? I don't have a link to the story yet because it isn't online yet. Just take my word that that is what was said.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Now some truth slips out

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

The fact that the quote is from a police chief lends no more credence to the statement than if anyone else made the statement.

If you are truely interested in the answer you have the chiefs name...get his number, call him, and ask him to provide some evidence.

Either the state stocked coyotes and he can prove it, or he can't.

I don't see his statement as supportive of the theory that NY has stocked Cougars and is denyingit.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Cattny, I know youre "only the messenger" here, so we or at least I wont shoot the messenger, but the quote you were given, or read, isjust not accurate. I do recalla tulemaria scare back then. But we already had coyotes. Its funny how this stuff gets started. I recall when people first started seeing bears move northward from your area. Guys would be debating whether it really was a bear, while you guys down there where saying "whats the big deal? Weve had em for years!"

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

CatNY, thanks, I needed a laugh. Did they release cougars to cut down on the released coyotes too? Talk about gullible.

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now, this is just a rumor, but i heard they are releasing tattooed kodiak bears to control the cougar population.

just a rumor, mind you!

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Moose, I read it on the internet so it must be true!

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Dam guys he never said who let them out. Are any of you guys married to or related to a dec officer, or are a dec officer? You guys seem to be butt kissing them everytime a new thread starts about dec doing something wrong.:D

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Tried to read the article on-line but it's not on their site.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Whats puzzling to me is how if this story the chief is telling about planted yotes is true was kept secret since 1983.Is he the only one in town that knew and now is blowing the whistle.Sounds like CIA stuff to me.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

I don't know why everyone keeps up the argument of how coyotes got here - wether released by DEC or just gradually moved into the area from PA and from Canada. I remember a story that was told to me when I first strated trapping by a good friend of my fathers who nuccience traps for the state about Coyotes moving in the the area. He said that there was one year not sure of dates but he was trapping for some racoons up on Grand Island that were causing some problems and ended up catching a coyote - He said it just baffled him at the time because there weren't many coyotes anywhere back then let alone out on an Island - but the river had froze solid that winter and figure that they crossed over on the ice and when everything thawed out there they were stuck on the island -

It was my second year trapping - I set a trail set for coon on the edge of a corn field and came to check the trap before school the next day and had caught a 58lbs Beaver - there was no creeks, ponds, swamps, not any water at all within about 15 miles of the spot I caught the beaver. Things just happen - unfortunately the animals are probably the only ones that realy have any idea why they do half the stuff they do.

Mountain Lions, Coyotes, Bobcats, Lynx, Wolves, whatever - It is always going to be a topic of discussion as to wether or not they are here and if so how they got here. I am just waiting to have to opportunity to see these animals in the wild without having to go out west to do so. Although I was born about 150 year too late.

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Stretch, relax, your way off base. I could care less about the DEC, its just ridiculous to think ANYONE would release coyotes inNY to take care of a rabbit problem...

"edited, thanks Bill"

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

He said NY, not PA. Stretch, Im the LAST guy youll find in bed with the DEC, trust me. I respect the COs, but thats about that.

I do recall articles from as early as the 60s of hunters with coyotes they shot in Batavia NY. Some suggest that coyotes once came across the ice from Canucktown. To me it seems like a no-brainer that they moved northeast from where ever, along the Appalachian Trail. The eastern coyote is a super coyote. Its size is bigger then the western animal, and its color phases ( normal brown and grey, silver, blonde, red, black, etc) are so similar to the red wolf, now almost extinct...due to interbreeding with the coyote. Go figure...

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

The NYDEC has quite clearly stated that they "never" realeased coyotes or ML's into the wild. If you say/believe they did you are just another conspiracy theorist. Or should I say BSer.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Why is it such a stretch to believe that any Government agency couldn't be involved in such things as releasing coyotes or any other species for that matter? Not saying I beleive all the rumors, but it is possible that the DEC of DNRC are lying about things. I live around Lake Erie where zebra mussels and gobies all of a sudden appeared, supposedly on ships from over seas. You mean to tell me that all of a sudden these creatures decided to move 1000's of miles to a new water source on their own andmultiply as fast as they did. I think not. Pennsylvania's Elk herd was wiped out at one time. Who reintroduced the Elk back to Pa? The PGC released the Rocky Mountain Elk back to Penn's Woods.I just don't know why you guys bash everyone who has other ideas that are entirely possible to be correct. I don't have the faith in the PGC or other agency's like I used to, seeing what has happened in NY to their deer herd and what is starting to happen to Pa's deer herd. Are they responsible for Coyotes and Mountain lions? I have no clue, but neither do you that they didn't.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=150769

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

How many years,studies and public meetings did that take?

Why would they want to release Zebra mussles?To remove the micro organisms that fish feed on or to plug the intakes of power plants and cottages?

I really don't think these state agencies are going to open themselves up for the litigation that would follow on the heels of just one disgruntled employee sneaking out the records showing they released a potentially dangerouis animal into populated area's. Think about the out cry.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

It's possible that there were dropped by space aliens too but to claim the government is lying without substantiated proof is by definition propagating a conspiracy theory. If you want to be lumped in with the likes of the crop circle people, lock ness, big foot, JFK assasination nuts, etc etc etcthen go right ahead. But don't be surprised when a whole lot of people make fun of you. BTW I didn't bash or make fun. I called a spade a spade. If you propagate a conspiracy theory, you are a conspiracy theorist. If you knowingly spew unsubstatiated claims you are a BSer.

Do you really think there is a parallel here? The PGC announced their plans publically for years before they did it. There were hearings and environmental impact studies.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

I seem to run just a hair behind you Charlie!

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

To answer fight4yourguns, its very simple, actually. Because it costs money...your money. When they trap and transfered turkeys decades ago, we all knew when, where, how and at what cost. Same with snowshoe hares in western NY, bald eagle hacking, the ill-fated lynx restoration project, the laughable otter program in western NY, the peregrine falcon program in all the major cities here, bluepike in Erie, numerous plant programs, to name a few. The turkey, peregrineand eagle programs are some of the most successful on record, a feather in the cap of conservation efforts. Other programs were not so successful, but equally as public. So, evidently, perhaps some of us do indeed have a clue, to use your words. I get the feeling the point you are actually trying to make is, we in here sometimes sound like know-it-alls and at the same time naysay every possible statement. But in this case anyway, thats not so.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Thats pretty close. I don't always word things very clearly. I'll try again noone on this board has any hard facts pointing to either side of the argument. Right?

OK some people have little faith in Democrats, some have little faith in the Republicans. Why? Because they believe someone usually the opposite side from which they voteis lying. No matter what proof the other side could have or what questions they raise, they will always be wrong. Do you think everything the agencies whom you and I pay for are completely honest 100% of the time? Just because they claim not to be involved or have knowledge of something doesn't make it fact. I don't really believe that in my state of Pa that there is a whole conspiracy thing going on, but I know people who do and that is their right. I'm not going to make fun of them just because they don't trust certain agencies.I don't trust alot of them either.They want answers not sarcasm or insults from people who are supposed to be on their side. These guys pay for tags like the rest of us. All I'm asking is if you know 100%and have hard facts to disprove some of the conspiracy theories as you call them? If not then you have no right to insult others who are asking these questions.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Charlie, probably not the best choice for comparison, but I don't think that in 1913 the PGC was doing environmental impact studies. I feel that sometimes the PGC and other bodies of game managment listen to people who learned everything from a classroom or a book and call them an expert and discredit the guys who have spent 50 years or more in the woods and brush them aside and say we have no idea what we're talking about. Why do the so called experts get to make all the decisions for us when we haven't elected any of them? Most were appointed by people we don't trust to begin with. Politicians. A little off the subject , but will maybe help you and others understand the point of some of these "conspiracy" posts.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

were the gobies and the zebra mussels tattooed?

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

I didn't invent the term. If you're makingthe unsubstantiated claim that the government is lying and covering up the fact that they secretly intruoduced coyotesand/or ML's into the environment you are BY DEFINITION of the term a conspiracy theorist.And you've got it backwards, like all conspiracy theorists do, in that it is not ANYBODY's obligation to proove the theory wrong. IfYOU are making the claim then YOU provide proof the claim has merit, otherwise you are just spewing BS just like all the other conspiracy theorists. As far as making fun, you better get used to it because when you jump in bed with the conspiracy theory nut cases you're going to get labeled a nut case just like the rest of them. Now I'm not making fun of you now, I'm just telling you the facts of the situation you place yourself in.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

All you need to do is produce some evidence of the conspiracy and you will be taken seriously. Until you do be prepaired for ridicule. If there were evidence it's likely that a whole lot of people would be loosing their jobs and some might even wind up in jail. Illegally introducing a species into the wild is a pretty serious crime and just about any prosecuter would just love to jump into a government conspiracy case if he thought there was any merit to it. It would make him famous!

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Remember watching "Dragnet" on tv?? The guy used to say "JUST THE FACTS JOE, JUST THE FACTS"... Show me the facts.... show me the proof... and then I will believe, not until.

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If I understand it correctly, even if the DEC did release the coyotes to kill diseased rabbits, the tulemaria (spelling is always different on this one) is blood-borne, and would have been passed from the bunny to the yote. Thus it would not have made biological-sense to do so from the DEC point of view.

I think humans can even get it.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Fight4yourguns, you may want to reread these posts. I was NOT the one who called anyone names or ridiculed the original poster. I was, however, the one who DID say I am not going to "shoot the messenger".

Also, its pretty simple to argue by the rules. We dont need to offer proof something DIDNT happen, it goes the other way around. I gave a pretty sound argument as to why this didnt happen. Prove ME wrong with the whole time period we all missed when this was all public, because it always is, thats just policy. Heck they even had pamphlets out outlining purple leafstrife control! If they did it, theres records.

Look, if you simply choose to disagree, Im ok with that. We sure dont agree so far. But it does make for some fun debate in there forums. Next topic, blue spruce rust, epidemic, or just an isolated case?

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Bill, I'm not jumping on you at all. I think you understand what I'm getting at a little better than the other guys who just want to poke fun. I don't care if you want to lable me whatever you want that just exposes the character of those who do it. I'm obviously not making myself clear. I said in a few of my posts that I don't necessarily believe these things are going on. I do believe though that people who ask questions about where, when and how, have every right to. Maybe in the back of my mind I get some of the mistrust from the PGc over the doe kill issues in Pa. I'm maybe lumping that in with my thought process and not spelling things out just as I'd like to. Basically I'm going off of what the original post said for my observation. Why did the officer say what he said? There must be a reason he used those words.

Was he the original "Conspiracy Theorist"? If he is a officer of the law or of conservation why is he discredited in your minds and you choose to believe other officials? See what I'm getting at? Why does his statement not count for something? Did he just make that up in an interview?

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

It doesn't count because the official position of the NYDEC is publically stated on their website and they CLEARLY say they NEVER released coyotes or ML's in New York. There is nothing to argue about. Go to the website and look it up for yourself. It's public information. Makes no difference what some police officer said. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation (the people accused of releasing them) say they never did. So if you or anybody else makes the argument thatthey are lying and they did realeasethem, unless you have some proofthen you are just another conspriracy buff propagating another conspriacy theory. And yes that goes for the police chief too! If he's accusing the DEC of lying about it then he better have some proof or he is just full of BS.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Sylvan! Do you read the posts or just pretend that your the authority here. I said Why doesn't it matter what he said? Why is the DEC your proof? Because they have a website? Did the officer just take the info he sputtered out of thin air? What made him say a date and a reason why they were release. Remember HIS WORDS NOT MINE Noone is spreading propaganda or BS like you want to lable , but asking YOU why one authority is your source of info and you discredit another? Please enlighten us. I never knew anyone who had all the answers like you do.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Your saying the officer is a liar though right? His word against the NYDEC but because the NYDEC said on a website its gospel. OH I get it now. Thanks for the fun!

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Proof of what? We are talking about what makes a conpiracy theory. You asked if the police officer was starting it. It should be ovious to you but let me explain it again. The agency accused of releasing and lying about releasing coyotes into the environment is the DEC. They clearly say they didn't. BY DEFINITION OF THE TERM, if ANYBODY makes an accusation like this and doesn't haveevidence to back up the accusation they are propagating a conspiracy theory. How much simpler can it be? The police officer is accusing the DEC. I don't have to be much of an authority to understand the english language well enough to undertand this. It makes no difference who is making the acusation. When YOU make an acusationYOU provide evidence of its merit, otherwise you're just spewing hot air.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

How on earth did you derive that from ...."So if you or anybody else makes the argument thatthey are lying and they did realeasethem, unless you have some proofthen you are just another conspriracy buff propagating another conspriacy theory."

A conspiracy theory is an unsubstantiated claim that a bunch of people are hiding the truth about something. Generally an illegal act. It could possibly be true but the way most intelligent people think, some evidence is required before such a claim is regarded with any seriousness.


BTW, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just pointing out that you guys who ARE trying to prove something need some verifiable evidence or you're just going to be laughed at.

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

quote:

So if you or anybody else makes the argument thatthey are lying and they did realeasethem, unless you have some proofthen you are just another conspriracy buff propagating another conspriacy theory.

Quite true. Unfortunately for you, it isn't my duty to prove that your coyote conspiracy is a falsehood. It is the duty of the person making the charges to prove them true. To do so, you must supply the officer's name, rank, and a method of contacting him to verify that what you say he said is actually what he said. Note, I am not calling the officer a liar. If there is one, finding out what he actually said will disclose that person. So far, nothing but an unsubstantiated rumor has been put forward. It has no date, time, place, names, or anything factual attached to it. Do this and I might start to give you conspiracy buffs some credence. Until then, you are just another conspriracy buff propagating another conspriacy theory. Sorry, but that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

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These last couple posts illustrates well why we cant have intelligent debate in here! Sure, lets go right into the DEC records for proof they DIDNT release coyotes. Uh, right-o. Im not pointing fingers to any one person, its just the general mood of these threads lately. I guess maybe if we all happened to know each other personally, we might not "talk" to each other quite the same way. Oh well, hey Im not offended if you guys arent!

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Ya see this is where you guys just don't get it! The DEC doesn't have to prove they DIDN'T release any coyotes. They are the ones ACCUSED ofthe deedand it is the ACUSER'S repsonsibility to prove the acusation not the ACCUSED's responsibility to prove they are incocent of the accusation. What country were you guys brought up in? You are actually arguing that it is logical tohear some story and unless the story can be proved false then it most be true. That's absolutely illogical not to mention ridiculous! You see this is a major reason you are being laughed at! Anybody with common sense simply chuckles at your reasoning.

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Sylvan, I might have read you wrong...you DO know I was saying that facetiously, like of COURSE theres no records for what DIDNT happen...right? Just checkin'. Gotta run now, I have to go read your bigfoot post...

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

Sorry Bill, I didn't realize it. I should have though based on your other posts. I didn't notice the name when I responded and just assumedyours was another conspiracy type post with the prove it wrong attitude. Sorry about that...

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

If no one is spreading bs, why is this thread even on here? Of course its BS, no realeased coyotes, no released cougars, no such thing as bigfoot...

RE: Released Coyotes in NY in 1983
 

I placed this original post to illustrate the small town mentality that coyotes were released by the DEC. I did not list the person name because this is a public forum. After reading the Olean Times Herald article again, it was the Chief of Police of Portville, NY who stated the coyotes were released by the DEC. Does he know something we don't know? I don't know, but, now that it has been published in a small town newspaper, this is how rumours are spread. People will say, it was inthe paper so it must be true. Afterall, the Chief of Police stated it. I remember about 30 years ago people hearing of "coydogs" and coyotes near Syracuse, NY. Ten years later, an article was in the Olean Times Herald of some hunters killing a few coyotes in Farmersville, a village about 30 miles North of Portville and several miles South of Syracuse. A few years later from there, people started seeing a few coyotes near Olean/Portville...Based onthis, my theory is that the coyotes migrated South fromthe Andirondacksabout 30 years ago.