License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

How 'bout that? Scary huh? We actually lightly covered the problem here too!

Taken from NY Outdoor News site:
DECALS snafu costing some hunters DMPs

Thursday, September 8, 2005 8:50 AM CDT








By Brad Sisson Contributing Writer

Albany -- A flaw in the DEC Automated Licensing System (DECALS) is costing some hunters their chance at obtaining a second Deer Management Permit (DMP) for the upcoming season.
The problem stems from an oversight that lets hunters apply for DMPs in areas where they have no chance of getting the permit. Forty-three Wildlife Management Units (WMU) in seven of the nine DEC regions are classified as having no second DMPs available for the 2005 deer season.

John O'Pezio, the lead biologist for the Big Game Section of the DEC and the Division of Fish and Wildlife's representative on the DECALS team, admits "the constraint in the {DECALS} system is less than ideal, but one we hope to fix in the future."





He attributes the error to the DECALS allowing only one classification for a WMU. "The current system does not give us a second option to close a WMU to application for a DMP. Either it is open on both first and second permit selection, or it's closed altogether," said O'Pezio.

O'Pezio conceded that hunters from across the state have already been affected, and that more will be as license sales progress.Niles Hickey of Caledonia, Livingston County, and a longtime hunter in WMU 9P, applied for his second DMP for that unit which, unknowingly to him, is one of the 43 that do not have second DMPs available for 2005. Hickey was subsequently turned down, and found out about the DECALS flaw just after application. He feels that the DEC is acting too slowly on a problem that should have been apparent from the beginning.

"The state shouldn't lead on hunters in this sort of fashion. We pay good money for our licenses, and it gives the sport a black eye to find out hunters threw away their tags (choices) after the fact," said Hickey.

In addition to the system error, Hickey believes the slow action by the state in addressing the problem is further evidence that the DEC is not handling the management of New York's deer herd efficiently.

"During the off-season, both hunters and the DEC agreed that DMP numbers needed to be reduced, yet we still see farms being handed nuisance or DMAP (Deer Management Assistant Program) permits with little scrutiny," said Hickey. "Add that in with the problem in DECALS, and you've got many concerned hunters who feel like they've been burned one too many times."

In light of the DECALS flaw, the DEC has sent out temporary corrective measures to outlets where licenses can be purchased. They believe this to be the best possible option available right now, according to O'Pezio.

"Agents and clerks in stores and the phone center have been sent notices that ask them to read the list of closed Wildlife Management Units in order to prevent a hunter from applying for areas that have a zero probability," O'Pezio said. "On top of that, we have been monitoring our online sales to alert hunters prior to application for DMPs."

Despite the best efforts of the DEC to limit hunters from losing their chance at a second Deer Management Permit, O'Pezio acknowledges implementation in the field is tough.

"Unfortunately, there will be hunters who apply through DECALS for zero probability units as their second DMP selection; the issue could affect a large number of our hunters for 2005," he said.

Currently, there is no information available that shows exactly how many hunters have applied for zero probability units in the past, or so far for this season's licenses. Hunters who do apply for DMPs in zero chance units are out of luck when it comes to re-applying for a different area. "Once a hunter makes their selections, they have no recourse from that point forward," O'Pezio said.

Even with the corrective actions, O'Pezio feels there is a certain level of responsibility which the hunter has to assume when applying for DMPs.

"The probabilities of Deer Management Permits vary from year to year, and even more so this season. We send out booklets that inform hunters of the odds for each unit before licenses go on sale, and they need to look at the chances for selection," he said.

When asked for a timeline on the correction of the problem, O'Pezio said "the development of DECALS has progressed a bit slower than we have liked, forcing us to put off some enhancements of the system to complete it. There is no question that the issue is high on our radar. I wish I could tell you it will be fixed by next year, but we really do not know at this point."

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

I agree, and disagree with this article. I agree the DECALS system could be much improved. I'd like to see that hunters cannot apply for WMU's that are closed or require Preference pts if they have none. I know people who are purposely making 1st selections in WMU's they cannot recieve a DMP to get a Preference pt for 06'.
But I also disagree in a way, because I feel hunters should be responsible to know what they are applying for, no less than hunters being responsible to know the game laws. The gentleman mentioned that applied for his 2nd choice in a area that was closed. Well under the circumstances its his own fault for not doing his homework before hand. He should've taken the time to find out which WMU's were open. Especially enlight of the DMP cutbacks.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

I don't beleive you can apply for a permit in a WMU that has none offerred. The computer won't physically let them punch it in (I thought that was the whole jist of the article - in units with no chance of 1st/2nd permit there was no issues, but in uints with a chance for 1st and none for second they able to physically apply although there was no chance to get one).

As far as the article and the person/people complaining about the system, my reply is: "READ THE DARN HUNTING QUIDE!!!!!!!" (OR LOOK AT THE DEC SITE IF NO GUIDE IS AVAILABLE). I take my hunting seriously and make darn sure where I can and can't get permits and we base our decisions accordingly. All it takes is a little research - not brain surgery. IMO those who applied for a second permit in an area with 0% chance and are complaining are idiots.

As far as DECALS goes, I think is is an improvement over the past licensing procedures. It has been impreoved every year and will continue to get better.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

I only caught the tail end of the conversation, but the guy in front of me couldn't even apply for DMPs.

He had a lifetime license that he had bought years ago, but apparently he wasn't in the system.

I don't know if this is an isolated incidence or not.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

It is indeed true that the system will allow you to apply for2nd permits in areas where you have no chance to get them, if permits are offered in the 1st selection. At the very least, DECALS should be fixed to prevent that from happening.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

Trust me it's not only him. It is believed to have affected over 1,000 hunters at the minimum. The flaw has been in the system from the get go, not just this year. Most of the hunters who have been affected are a result of the info packets not getting mailed to the houses or site updatebefore licenses were purchased. Mailings to the stores themselves were not available for almost the first week of sales.Still, the flaw in DECALS is a major blow to what the state claims it is.

Add to that, the DEC made no effort whatsoever to publicize the flaw. You'd think they'd be proactive about this, knowing the probelm since DECALS was created.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

we are all grown ups. simple idea, take responsiblity for your mistake of not knowing what was what with the DMPs. If you don't know, ask. If they can't tell you, wait. Do a lttle research. Don't place the blame on someone else for your own "ignornance". If it was a law you were breaking, you think the judge is going to accept "well, I didn't know it was that way" or "they didn't tell me that". Yes, it can/should be fixed/improved and I'm sure it will be.

ps - the "you" and "your"are not pointed to any one specific

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

i have to agree with some people here. If you go buy your license, right there on the counter is the regulation book. you open it up and find the page with the dmp information. you look up your WMA, if it has 1st choice ones, you say that one. Then you look at the second column, if your area is in the none section, you dont pick it
If you dont get your permit, its not the computers fault you didnt look it up.

I only hunt in one area, and any others around that i could possible have the opportunity to hunt have none. SO when i got my license i didnt even give a second choice. sometimes i put 6G twice, I know im not going to get a second one, but oh well, doesnt hurt me any, i only hunt in 6G, im not going to take one from another area, if im not going to use it

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

Another little glitch in system or documentation is apparently the word'none' has a different meaning in New York then it does elsewhere. I only hunt in one place also, which has no DMP's available this year. So I attempted to apply for area that specificly states 'none' for non-residents just to try and pad preferance points and sure enough I got picked. 4 years of waiting and I'll be starting all over again as I have no idea where this place is , and have no intention of trying to find a place to hunt there. I guess because of this I also burned someone else from getting DMP there.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

Ray, what unit was it in? maybe you could transfer it to someone who hunts int hat area. i dont know if you can transfer a nonrsident doe permit though.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

this is no way the decs fault .....its all in black and white....reg book and web site and has been that way for as long as i can remember.....regardless how many permits where give out....so if you need the dec to hand cart you everywhere maybe you need to hand in your firearms...cause i dont want you in my woods...................

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

There's no question some of the honus goes onto the hunter. However, I'm amazed at your response, which lacks the depth of understanding of the situation I think, and not one which you have viewed all the facts before making a statement like that.

#1. You think it is okay for the DEC to do this? Have this problem, not make it public for YEARS, then offer little to no effort to make the problem publicly known and to fix the issue? Remember, they still don't think it'll be fixed by next year....

#2 The large majority of hunters who were affected got their license before the DEC was able to get the books deliveredAND site updated. The DEC either dragged their feet on getting the books delivered and site updated, or a backup occurred on both from production, but I doubt that was the case, more likely the former.

#3. The government is supposed to provide safeguards, in all areas. How would you like the bank system to fail, and when you attempt to withdraw money from your bank account, you find it is all gone and you have no restitution? That's what the FDIC is for. Same principle, the government has a public duty to provide backstops.

So, in a complete objective look, the hunters should look at the books before applying. However, the state is just as at fault for not creating a system that works without a major issue like this. They should have delayed DMP application if the books and/or site was delayed in being delivered or uploaded. On top of this, they should have made a public effort to make hunters aware of this problem. But the best part is that they have no idea on when they will attempt to fix this. I think that is the worst part of their management of the issue, by far. It's like saying, hey screw you...in a politically correct way.

I think it is a 50/50 split on responsibility. The hunters have to look out for their own well-being, but the state government has to provide a safe, ethical, and working system because it is their responsibility to the public.

A random statement like saying the DEC is not responsible is pretty bold-faced with the current information.

The DECALS system is a good one, but there has to be more attention given to it now in order to make it a great one.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

again in my opinion the dec has done no wrong.......this system(dmp percentages being posted)has been this way for as long as i can remember....the percentages where all in plain view to everyone at all issueing outlets that i went to.......if people cant take 2 min to read then why blame someone else...............answer me this.......the system was the same last year...why didnt you hear about it........it boils down to this....some people are pissed about the way the dec is handleing the deer herd...so they need things to complain about.....if these people need the dec to hold there hands when getting there liscense...then maybe they should hand in there firearms..cause i dont want them in my woods......

also...i am always on the web site....and it was posted before liscenses went on sale

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

It's happened since the beginning of DECALS in NY. Why haven't you heard about it?...because of the drastic change in herd dynamics and the DMP numbers moving % wise so sharply this year. Less tags = more people affected. Simple logic there.

If those percentages are there in black and white...why does the computer let you apply for the areas where it says none are available? Better yet, how did the one out of stater get a tag in an area where none where available for him? Yet you think the DEC has nothing to do with this. They certainly do have a portion of liability in it.

I'll continue to say that it is not all on the hunter in that the gov't has to provide a black and white (in your words) percentage, which they did not do completely correct. If it was, people wouldn't be able to apply for zones that have none available, and people getting tags where there are supposedly none available...sure seems like black and white to me...:DDefinite 50/50 split on this one in responsibility...

You seem stuck on the percentages being posted. If those percentages were true in the highest sense of the definition, we wouldn't have these problems. Correct? explain the percentage of the out of stater getting 1 out of ZERO available to him? I'd like to see that in balck and white...:D

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

ok..im not saying that decals doesnt need some refurbishing, and ill get to that in a minute...however i dont think the fact that people cant do there home work is not the decs fault, i also agree with some people applying for the sole purpose of getting a pref point....why not......and because more people are affected then is appropriate to complain...give me a break.......

the only serious problem i see with the dec(not just the decals) is this.....

just an example.....
how do they come up with a wmu that is med for your first choice and low for the 2nd choice........which in all reality some one could be turned down for the first selection(med)....but someone else could get a 2nd(low)...........simple logic tells me it should be......high chance for first and none for 2nd.........

and how the non res got a dmp in a none ...is beyond me.(and thats a glitch)....but its unrelated to someone mistakingly appling for a 2nd in a none wmu......and not getting it.....when all they had to do is take 2 min to read it.......and these are going to be the same people that are going to be useing a shotgun in the counties that now allow rifles cause they were not called by the dec and told of the change.......and some how it will all come back on the dec......

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

LOL, you just acknowledged the glitch in one aspect and then not in another...

It is the same glitch...the system only allows for one class distinction. The very same glitch that lets hunters APPLY for no chance second DMP zones is the same one that allows a non-resident to apply for and get a DMP in a zone that does not allow non-residents a chance.... it is because they only have one class distinction for a zone...open or closed. Same glitch....

The non resident was drawing from the resident pool of DMP's. Why? because of only one class distinction... If it is open for the resident, then they can't close it for the non...vice versa with hunter's applying for no chance zones.

Yet you see no problem with it on the opposite end...

Like I said for the eleventhousandthbillionth time...it is equal on fault for both the hunter and the DEC. The hunter looks for their well being, but they should have faith in the DECALS system to be a failsafe. If they overlooked something, or read the graph wrong on accident, and applied for the wrong zone (one that is a no chance 2nd zone), I'd like to think the computer would say to the 5 dollar an hour employee at Wal-martsomething along the lines as "This is a no chance zone, please select again."...It's not rocket science by any means, but mistakes happen on both ends, and both need to be improved....hunter and DECALS alike...that's my whole point.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

Your point is noted.

However, all of this rambling can be distilled down to one inalienable truth...applying for a DMP in a zone where there is no chance of getting one is plain dumb. When I apply, I first do a little simple reading and come to a carefully conceived decision. Although I have sought councel of many a Wal-Mart guy, he will not guide me in that decision.
I suspect that the DEC will make software changes so that people can't blame the DEC for their own screw-ups.

-Phil

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

um... no. it isnt the same glitch. allowing the nonresident to apply for it a closed area is the same glitch, allowing him to get one from a closed area is a different glitch(we arent talking about residents getting them in closed areas, are we?), and irelevant to the discussion of people being allowed to apply for closed areas.

The fact is that people are applying for places they wont get one, they applied for the wrong area, oh well, they messed up. I looked at the book for a few minutes before buying my license. I saw that i have a medium chance in 6g for my first choice, and none for my second choice. i then looked at near by areas that i may get a chance to hunt, and saw that they did not have second choice permits, so i didnt have a second choice. I looked at the numbers and saw where i could get a tag or not. If I had applied for the wrong area, it would ahve been MY FAULT.
Yeah, the DEC should fix this error, to stop people from whining. but i dont think they were in the wrong.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

I think some statements made here are plain wrong ("applying for a permit with no chance is wrong/stupid, etc").In the areas with 0% chance for any DMP (take my area, 7M) you cannot apply for a DMP. Plain and simple - the computer will not let the issuing agent type it in or bring up that unit for a choice (I have tried, just to see what happens). The issue here is with the areas with a chance for a first DMP and 0% chance for a second - that is where the clitch is (yes, it is a glitch that should be addressed). As the system is now, there is no way for DECALS to distingish betwwen chance for a 1st DMP and 0% for 2nd - ie the computer will not allow for a distinction, therefore the issuing agent can physically type in for a second DMP in an area that has 0% chance.

I still have no sympathy for the people who didn't do a little checking first. Not hard to do. If there wasn't books available the first day, they could have waited. Stop trying to blame the govt. (DEC in this case) for all of"your" problems.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

TJ- It is the same glitch. It has to do with the class distinctions of the WMU.

The same glitch, open or closed category, allows the out of state hunter to apply and get a resident's DMP. It is the same glitch.

If the zone is open to hunters for a first permit and not on the second, they have to label it as open for application on both permits, although none are available for the second. That is where hunters lose their permit chances.

If the zone is open to residents, and not non-residents, the zone has to be open for application, of which if a non-resident applies, he actually can draw and get a resident's permit because that zone can only be open or closed, not distinguished by 1st or second zone, or resident or non-resident. The limit on distiniction open or closed is the problem here that the DEC needs to fix.

Same glitch, clearly, and simple to understand.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

The "wal-mart" guy has been directed through the DEC with an official memo to look over WMU selections. O'Pezio, clearly stated they have no idea when this will be fixed, and that usually means "not next year" when you hear it on the state level.

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

[/quote]

The "wal-mart" guy has been directed through the DEC with an official memo to look over WMU selections. O'Pezio, clearly stated they have no idea when this will be fixed, and that usually means "not next year" when you hear it on the state level.
[/quote]

Once again I have grossly underestimated the Wal-Mart guy!

Here's a test question...please use a #2 pencil to fill in the correct circle.

1. A whitetail deer's tail is what color?
A) Green B) Yellow C) Lavender D) White

O A
O B
O C
O D
O E

For those of you that picked E, it wasn't a choice...your chance of getting it right was 0%. Yes, the E was a bit of a curveball, as are the bold letters "None" above the regions where there is no doe permits.

I do see your point Phade, it must suck to walk away with no DMP's because of an oversight. Alot of people in our fair state kicking themselves in the ars, I'm sure.
-Phil

RE: License problems in NY- NY Outdoor News.
 

Phil,

We need comedy like yours, stick around for a while, and post on other topics, etc. Breaks up the monotony. We've got the fair share of smart people, mor*ns, new people, and we have always lacked the funny guy (well, charlie p. and yox are pretty good I must admit).

Imagine being a resident hunter of that zone where the non-resident guy got the DMP. Essentially, he took a tag from someone who would have got it (resident wise). I think that stinks a bit. The out of state guy feels bad for that happening cause he isn't hunting it. That's a tag gone down the drain in an already hard to get WMU.