Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

http://www.pennlive.com/sports/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/sports/1124356943120090.xml&coll=1

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I really think they're putting themselves out on a limb here.If they lose which I expect they will it gives a shot to their credibility.
I feel our deer management program needs repaired or some changes but don't feel this is the route to take.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

So they finally went through with it. One of the guys that came into the shop tonight mentioned it. I thought he was joking but apparently he wasn't.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

The lone dissenting voice is about to get more lonely. This is not the way to fix things[:'(]

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

How about that.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Well, I guess this proves that the USP is really a fringe loonie tune organization. They will lose this suit, costing them a whole lot of money, I hope. The big problem is that this suit will cost the game commission a pile of money to defend. If I were a member of the USP, which I am not, I would terminate my membership immediately.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

State Attorney General's office will defend the case. Their budget is taxpayer based.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Since I have been warned about posting anything negative about Alt's plan , I will simply say that the only benefit I see from the suit , is that if and when Dr. R and other PGC staff are deposed or testifies under oath, we will finally learn how much the herd has been reduced . Since the buck harvest in 2004 was equivalent to the buck harvest in 1983 it appears that the herd has been reduced by 30-40%. A good attorney will not allow the PGC to dodge the question by claiming they don't have enough data to determine the size of the herd.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Oh thanks. That makes me feel a whole lot better. Tax money isn't real money.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Great Job USP!!!!! Lets fight with our fellow hunters!!! I am sure the antis would back USP. I am proud not to be a member of USP
Unified
Sportsman
Peta

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

If you guys had to hunt on public land I bet you would change your tune, go do a little archery hunting on your local game land this year. I know you would rather hunt in your back yard but try it for one week and let us know how you did. ;)

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I hope you aren't in the scope again?

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

That's pretty bad when you got to be a clone to someone's thinking.

DO NOT POST ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT ALT'S PLAN

Why?

This forum won't have to ban me. I quit... Out of here, stay and be a clone.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I never hunt on private land anymore, but on State Gamelands 100% of the time. What is your point? I hunted eight days of the rifle season last year and saw only four other hunters. My buddy who hunted with me all eight days saw only one other hunter. Where are all these guys you think are overhunting the public land? They sure aren't where I'm hunting. I hunt the steepest, roughest, thickest part of the mountain. That is where the deer go after the first hour or so. I saw ten bucks last rifle season, seven of which were AR legal. Sorry, but it's true. You gotta get away from the road a bit to see deer.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

You are exactly right patrkyhntr!;) I thought the Mcdonalds lawsuit was crazy over the hot coffee. This one tops that off! I guess I will have to sue all the outfitters I hunted with over the years. I didnt shoot a trophy buck. That sounds like they broke their end of the deal!:D I am going to contact my attorney I should become a millionaire by archery season:)

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

well they all must be hunting in my area.. i dont know where your from but around here people hunt and everyone hunts and they hunt hard..
now for your get off the road statement is a bunch of crap, i hunt 3 miles from the truck. last year the first day there was 5 of us within 100 yards of each other.. now i bet you say well you need to move.. well my dad was a mile away from me and he had the same thing, my brother was 2 miles from me and same thing, and another guy same thing..
and hey i believe ya that u hunt all puplic land, thats great and im glad u found a place no one knows about YET... but most other people here that talk this talk, they are all private land hunters, dont let them fool ya

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I don't know where you hunt, but I could use the company. As to your hunting over three miles from your truck, I won't question that, but I doubt that there are many places in the state that are three miles from any roads. Where in Blair County are you huhting that has that much land away from roads?
I hunt state gamelands number 81, nearly all of which is in Huntingdon County. Here is a link to a PDF map of the gamelands.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/p...es/maps/81.pdf
I don't think I ever get a mile away from the road, but do sometimes walk well over three miles from my cabin when still hunting. If you are hunting in an area where you can't get more than a hundred yards away from other hunters, try my gamelands, but be prepared to climb some steep and rough stuff. It isn't too far from Altoona. Now, on the negative side, our buck/doe ratio is quite low. I saw ten bucks during rifle season, but only thirty total deer. This suits me just fine, but it might not suit you. I did talk to some of the guys who usually hunt in this gamelands and they were complaining that they weren't seeing any deer at all. I have no reason to dispute what they or you are saying.
Here is a photo of a buck taken by a youngster I took out the first day. It was his first. He is 14.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

bullmoose38, I know where you hunt and it's not public land. ;)
patrkyhntr, did you get one of those 8 bucks?Sounds like you hunt a spot like I hunt up in Lebanon Co. so many rocks that the deer cant even get through them, when I do get a buck their most of the hair is gone off the deer by the time I get it back to the truck. :D

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Yes, I did, lost horn. I was hunting by myself on the second Thursday. I hadn't got much sleep the night before, so when I got to my spot, I decided to take a nap. I slept until 10:30. Something woke me up, and as I was clearing my eyes of sleepy dirt, I caught motion out of the corner of my eye. This one is the tenth buck I saw, and I decided that you don't have to take the first one, but you have to take the last one. Looking back on it, I wish I had let him go by. I think he would be really nice this year. You can see what the rocks did to his hide by the right-rear quarter.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Yep you sure did patrkyhntr, nice buck, that right side brings back a lot of memories from those rocks, It's a shame we have to hunt that rough stuff just to find a deer and get away from the crouds, I don't know about you but I am getting a little bit too old for some of those rocks but as you said that is where the deer are so I guess I will keep crawling through them.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

patrkyhntr- yes you are close to me, thats great..i got to hunta part of huntingdon county last year on private land in warrors mark. i got a doe. but that was a one time thing .. i hunt cambria blair county line well pretty close to it.. and yes sgl 108 there are a lot of areas w/ no roads. well there are some old logging roads and stuff but not able to drive..
your area sounds like mine w/ the buck to doe. so far scouting which isent much this year for me sad to say.. but ive seen 6 total deer. 5 bucks and only one doe. one nice buck.. hey do you have many areas for bird hunting?? i just got an english pointer on thurs. he is acute little thing.. he will be ready next year.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: lost horn

bullmoose38, I know where you hunt and it's not public land. ;)


Wow somebody has me patterned!:eek: Well I guess you dont know where I hunt because I do hunt the game lands 1 mile away from our property. I do hunt most of the time on our QDM property but I do also hunt the game lands which is pretty good also. They are some of the same deer that we see on our co-op.;)

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

The bird hunting is fairly good, but you have to find the decent cover, PA Gobbler. Where I hunt, the grouse hunting is best along the wide bench near the top of the mountain. The gypsy moth damage made for great grouse tangles. Pheasants are a thing of the past, though. I grew up during the heyday of pheasant hunting. At one time around where I live, it was nothing to see 200 of them in a day's hunting. The stocked birds of today are a pale imitation of the wild stuff we used to have. I do take my setters for a day or two of preserve hunting each year, but it isn't the same. They don't care. They love it all the same. A photo of one of my setters from the past follows:

I have raised and trained English setters for over forty years, but am slowly getting out of it. My legs don't like grouse hunting as much as they used to (LOL). A guy you might like to get in touch with would be Andy Wert. He lives in the Mifflintown area, and does a good bit of bird dog work. He posts frequently on the PA site.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Thia lawsuit is not likely to help anyone except the lawyers. All USP is going to prove is that all has not gone perfectly (as was predicted)

Perhaps USP has now evolved into:


Undercover Supporters of Peta !!!

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I don't expect much to come out of this lawsuit.Having said that Alt has done alot of damage to our sport with his recent anti hunting statements.
I really believe the PGC still supports hunting and tries to give us better oppertunities.But there's political issues right now that make that job tough.
Let's face it,deer hunting is the bread and butter of our sport.Take it away or make the quality of deer hunting that bad and we're going to lose alot of license holders in the long run.The problem of the over harvest of deer isn't just confined to PA either.Many other states are having this same battle.
No I am not a biologist but I do have eyes and my own mind.Just because a bird watcher's org or the Ed Rendell run DCNR says something doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and accept it when my eyes show me otherwise.The forest I've been hunting for years is showing me you can have regen with a quality huntable deer herd.Was is that?Well it's not 10 dpsm with the dcnr saying more needs to be reduced!It's pretty bad when a common hunter like myself and others I talked to in our area can see the forest needs opened up for regen.This hot topic of deer reduction goes deeper then just saving the forest.I'm hoping to find time on labor day weekend to post some pics and prove my point.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I hardly know where to begin with this one. I guess your area doesn't have browse lines, which are well-documented in much of the state. The northcentral forest has been so severely overbrowsed by the deer that it will require deer populations of five to ten deer per square mile for quite a number of years before anything higher can be maintained without harming the forest. You don't have to be a member of Audubon Society to see that is fact.

What you want is fantasy. You want enough deer that it makes hunting easy, like it used to be when we had way too many deer. You can't have that and have healthy forests too. Your problem is that you refuse to believe facts presented to you when they contradict your preconceived opinion, that being that the blame commission has destroyed the deer herd because of ecoweenies. You can disregard the evidence that is provided by fenced plots, where the vegitation inside the plot grows well and outside it does not. You can disregard the testimony of competent biologists and forestry experts too. Believe what you seem to want to see with your own biased eyes. Believe also what those who hate the blame commission post, and hate those who tell you what you don't want to hear. You perceive Dr. Alt to be a danger to you because he told you the truth, but you didn't want to hear it.

The greatest danger to hunting in Pa. is not the efforts of DCNR and Audubon to have healthy forests. It is those like you who feel that the forests are there to provide you with an easy deer to shoot. If hunters prove themselves to be unable to control deer populations within ecologically sensible bounds, we will prove ourselves to be irrelevant and unnecessary to the majority of the public who could care less whether you hunt or don't hunt. Today, most of the non-hunting public sees us hunters as the only viable population control measure for wildlife. That could change, and hunting as we know it could be as extinct as the Dodo bird.

If you think hunting is really hard in Pa., you should stay here and never under any circumstances go to Maine. Some of us think the deer hunting is great there, and the deer density is far lower than in most of Pa.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Don't hardly know where to begin with your post turkey hunter but I'll give it a crack.
First of all I hunt in the NC and have seen different fenced in areas.The first three that come to mind have no difference inside then outside.If you're interested PM me and I'll give you directions.One thing these areas have in common are a closed canopy.No lime no fertilizer.
I reread my post and didn't see anything about wanting easy deer hunting.Actually I don't want easy deer hunting,that's not hunting.18 dpsm is far from easy but can lead to a quality hunt.
I also had to re read my post where you assume I refer to them as the blame commission or don't support them.Couldn't find that either.
If you're a hunter and think the DCNR and or bird watchers are interested in preserving hunting you have alot to learn.Never follow a group blindly without question.
For example I'm a die hard republican but don't agree with everything they do and know at times they are wrong.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

I have to ask this question,
If the bird watcher's are pushing for their cause,and the DCNR pushing for their cause,{timber sales}and the environmentalists pushing for their cause,{old growth and predators}why is it so wrong for a hunter to question the future of his sport?The birders are interested in one thing yet in your eyes that's OK.But it's not OK for a hunter to question the policies of these orgs?Makes me wonder about some of you guys.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Fair enough, germain. We must agree to disagree. You cite three fenced enclosures where you say the growth outside the fence is the same as that inside, and state that the reason no growth occurs outside most of the enclosures is that there is a closed canopy and that the inside is limed. From what I have read elsewhere, this doesn't ring true. The enclosures are in various areas where canopies are closed or open, but the one unifying factor in the VAST MAJORITY of them is that the growth inside is lush and that outside is not. In the enclosures I have personally seen, the lack of growth outside is due to overbrowsing. So in this case, I think your statement is biased.

It isn't wrong for a hunter to question the future of his sport, germain. Isn't that what I am doing? I also question the organizations running the state, particularly the legislature. I choose to believe what is scientifically accurate, not necessarily what I want to believe. This doesn't mean that I accept such things as the impact of deer on the ecosystem without question. It does means that when I read the Audubon report I found things that concerned me about the overall environment. I guess you will just have to dismiss me as an Audubon supporter, or perhaps as being in league with the DCNR. The difference between you and me is that I care more about the health of the entire ecosystem than just for how many deer can be supported by the forest without regard to any other species that might be harmed by their overpopulation. You need to open your mind to the idea that perhaps your conspiracy theory might be all wet. It is, IMO.

You didn't need to reread your post, germain. The use of the term, "blame commission" is mine, not yours. It comes from a series of articles written in the old Pennsylvania Sportsman magazine by a writer by the pseudonym of J. W. Gramp. While these articles were written many years ago, they highlighted a feature of the thinking of many hunters, that the Pa. Game Commission was at fault for nearly everything. If we could just substitute the DCNR and perhaps the Audubon Society for the blame commission, perhaps it would make more sense to you. If you took this personally, I apologize. I didn't intend it to be directed exclusively toward you, but to those who oppose the use of science in deer management. Those folks prefer, as you seem to prefer, deer management to the end of supplying enough deer for them to have an "enjoyable and rewarding" hunt. That is not the purpose of game management. Management of game populations should always be aimed at limiting their numbers to what the environment can support in a sustained manner without damage to the overall ecosystem. Yes, flowers and birds matter to me, germain. That they don't seem to matter to you is evidence of your myopic thinking.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Click on these links, this is why I would like to see what is behind this kill the deer, if these are the groups that the PGC got their info. from, God help the deer! IS THIS THE SCIENCE IN DEER MANAGEMENT THE PGC USED?
http://www.nittanynews.com/wildlands.htm
http://www.wildpennsylvania.org/press/031003.htm

This is another view from the other side.
http://www.outdoortalknetwork.com/art271.html

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Trust me turkey hunter I do care about the overall condition of our forest.Heck I'm a hunter and spent alot of money on our habitat via pitt-rob fund and many other sources.And I do agree that we needed herd reduction in areas of the state.I agree that the days when I used to see 60 deer a day in the NC woods that was too many for the habitat to support.I am also a grouse,turkey,and smallgame hun ter so habitat means alot to me.
Let me give alittle example.After serious herd reduction we hunted the second season of grouse in the state forest.As you know grouse hunting requires alot of miles.The lack of deer sign that day was alarming yet we were slipping on acorns untouched by deer.Lots of acorns.And no they didn't have worms.:DIf this area had too many deer those acorns would have been far and few between.
I never said that deer don't browse because they do.And the good thing about them is that the junk maples are a preferred browse.I wish they would browse more of them.Those buggers can grow anywhere including under my deck where there's no sun at all.
Maples grow alot faster then oaks and inalot of cases shade them out.
Sorry getting off topic.:D
Anyway I'm not asking for 50 dpsm.I'm asking for the birders and DCNR to find a happy medium between supporting the habitat and at the same time preserving our deer hunting heritage.When you see an area that is down to 10 spsm and less and still no regen under the canopy you know there's a bigger factor here then the whitetailed deer.After seeing regen in the sun {white oaks}with a number of 38 dpsm it tends to make a fellow question the motives behind such groups as the birders.They care about birds,not deer,bear,rabbits or any other game animal.My thing is hunting.:DAnd yes that means a good environment with good habitat but along the way I dion't think we need to nearly eliminate the deer.
Most of the notheast at one time was hemlocks and pines.They cut down the mountains and what grew back was oaks and many other food producing trees.Were the seeds laying dormant just waiting for sunlight?I'm not sure but I do know when the sun came in the hardwoods grew.
People like you and myself aren't as far apart as you think.Somewhere along the line we just need to find a happy medium and get back to fighting the antis rather then ourselves.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Agreed, germain.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

[ Yes, flowers and birds matter to me, germain. That they don't seem to matter to you is evidence of your myopic thinking.


[/quote]

Being a grouse and turkey hunter,definately not true.Along with the wildflowers in my area I plant more every year.If your a mind reader turkey hunter you need to brush up on your skills.:D

Please take this as a joke and not a personal attack.;)

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Lost horn,there are groups that stuck their noses in this issue that don't belong.I work with a few antis who are also watching this closely.In their words,

"We'll sacrifice alot of deer now if it means an end to hunting and saving their future"

That's the way they are reading this whole ordeal.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Whether you realize it or not ,it is the PGC ,not the USP that has provided all the ammunition any anti-hunting group needs to file a suit against the PGC. By claming that durng the last five years with record antlerless harvests, extented seasons and record harvests ,hunters have been ineffective at reducing the herd ,they have support the anti-hunters claim that hunters are not able to control the population.. They also implemented AR's in SRA areas which plays into the trophy hunter claims of the anti -hunters. Also, they conducted the hunter movement survey which implied hunters were lazy and inept and didn't hunt far from the parking lots. The study also claimed that the deer and the habitat were controling the deer population in the big woods, not the hunters.

All those factors support the claims of the anti-hunters and the documentation was provded by the PGC ,not the USP.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

Yes germain, and if you have read some of the post on this forum the last few months you can clearly see they are doing a lot of posting here. IMO.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

First, the PGC has not claimed that hunters have been inneffective rather they admited that their deer model needs improvement and they have also recognized the lower deer densities and have consequently lowered antlerless tag allocations. All the while the USP has been singing the same old song of "not enough deer" for close to twenty years.

The hunter movement study showed what really happened in the study area. Was the PGC supposed to make up the results?

USP has shown itself to be the voice of the selfish hunter who still wants a deer behind every tree. Most other sportsmans organizations recognize our deer program as less than perfect but are willing to be reasonable in their efforts to work things out. USP has the mentality of "put it back the way it was or else" This time or else means we'll sue you.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

The new computer model was only used for 2003 and 2004, yet in 2002 the PGC claimed we had 1.6 M PS deer. In 2000 they claimed that a harvest of 302 K antlerless kept the herd stable . The only year the PGC claimed the herd was reduced was in 2001 when they wanted to justify implementing AR's and claimed that an antlerless harvest of 283K reduced the herd by 8%.

The PGC has been claiming that we over harvest the buck population and even after AR's were implemented the studies show that only 20% of the 2.5+ buck survive hunting season. PA hunters are very effective at harvesting deer where they have access to the deer and that is why the population in 2 G is 3 DPSM below it's goal of 15 DPSM. It is disgusting for the PGC to label hunters as lazy and inept when the facts show that PA hunters are quite capable of controling the population if they have unlimited access.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

The PGC didnt call hunters lazy or inept. They simply conducted the study and reported the results. . Sorry you cant accept those results.

I really feel sorry for you. You have come to hate the PGC and Gary Alt so much thatyou cant acknowledge any fact that doesn't fit your picture of how you wantthings to be.

RE: Lawsuit challenges policies on PA deer
 

It is you that has a problem acknowledging the facts. While the PGC said the herd had been reduced in some areas ,they still claimed the statewide herd had increased. If they would have returned to using the old model ,instead of sticking with the new model they could have given the hunters credit for reducing the statewide herd by over 30%. They posted the comparison of the old and the new model but choose to ignore it so they could justify asking hunters to reduce the herd even more.

BTW, I suppose you forgot what someone told the Audubon conference about alpha ,beta and omega hunters!