? about resident KS hunting permits
 

There is a chance that I will be moving to KS in the next couple months and I have a couple questions about getting my deer hunting permit.

1) Will I have to take an Hunters Saftey course again or will my MO course be valid?

2) Is there a waiting period before I can purchase a resident tag or will I be able to buy one as soon as I move and get my drivers licenese switched over?

I'm sure there are a couple more but I just can't think of them right now.

Thanks.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

There is no waiting period and your hunters saftey course will work. Heck I've never even been asked for an ID when purchasing a license or permit...

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Per Ks. state reg. book., "A resident of the state is defined as any person who has maintained the person's place of permanent abode in this state for 60 days immediately preceding the person's application for any license, permit, or other issue of the department. Domiciliary intent is required to establish that a person is maintaining a place of permanent abode in this state"
Unless you are a student or inthe military, the above applys to you.
ANd Kshunter is right, your MO safety card is good in the state of KS.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Thanks guys I really appreciate the info.

I also heard that bowhunters are going to have to pick a unit to hunt in the future instead of being able to hunt in any unit. Is this true?

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

1. your hunter safety card is good in kansas.

2. the state normally sends out rifle tag apps in late june, i normally receive mine in july.

http://www.kdwp.state.ks.us/hunting/deerfaq.html

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Snapper, this is true, we will have unitized bow permits. Terrible desicion any way you look at it. KDWP is making mistake after mistake in the way they're running this state. I've talked to people from KDWP, and this bill was passed so the outfitters could profit from it only. It was snuck through the back door and now we're all starting to realize what happened.[&o]

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

kshunter,

Is there anything the hunters can do to stop what is happening.

I also heard that the head Wildlife&Parks guy is an outfitter. Seems to me that that person shouldn't be sitting in that position if this is true.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

There's nothing now that the hunters can do. Just to show how bad the reps in KS were con'd into this and mislead, I think the over-all vote was around 25 for and 2 against. The outfitters have so much power with the KDWP it's not even funny.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

To inject a little actual information on the subject:

No. 1
Sec. Hayden did own a percentage in an outfitter business and it was disclosed at the time of appointment and reappointment. He was appointed by a Rep. Governor, and then in the 2nd appointment his divested actions in said outfitting busniess was stated as per public record.

No.2
There was another group that was tired of paying for the majority of the hunting season and getting heavily regulated...Rifle Hunters. In Kansas there were 100,000 + rifle hunters with 13 days to hunt in a state with 3% public land, fighting against the less than 20,000 bowhunters who had 2.5 months afield and the run of the field. Additionally there was found out several KDWP employees were office holders in the KBA and were actually shutting down public ground to rifle hunting, those proposals were fought by me personally and I shut them down. You cannot Rifle or Handgun hunt on any of the US Wildlife areas although these areas allow archery. Go Figure. At Clinton lake almost all areas are shut down to Rifle hunting on account of "Safety" reasons which are as bogus as what was proposed at Cedar Bluff Lake in the Page Creek Area. BTW, Did you know that the person in charge of that decesion is a State Wildlife person, and is employed to also manage the adjacent private ground, giving him about 15 sq. mi. of his own private habitat including offlimits PUBLIC LAND. AND he was the KBA Conservation Officer Last Year????

NO it was not all the outfitters. You will hear that over and over again. But a large amount of resident Rifle hunters just got fed up. One of the reasons the Legislature was so draconian on the KDWP was because of the Large archery influence squeezing out the Rifle hunter. The past game commission had 3 of the 7 members as KBA supporters. Small wonder they kept cutting access for rifle hunters. The Legislature I have on good authority passed such laws to smoke out the knuckle heads.

Lastly, the Mule Deer issus IS NOT over yet. KDWP again cut back on the Any Buck tag for rifles...but did not limit archery to either whitetail or mule deer. The tag was unconstitutional for issuance. In order to have Non-resident unit specific, you have to have resident unit specific. There is no reason why any hunter would have a problem with selecting a specific Unit to assist in mamagement of the deer herd. There is a greedy bunch that wants to save all the bucks for themselves.

Look at the trend for success rates and harvested bucks in the state of Kansas. You will see a major decrease in resident Rifle success rate and a drastic reduction in buck harvested by rifle, while resident archery success rates rose, and buck harvest rates stayed steady at 76-80% bucks harvested, the rest being does.

So don't believe everything you hear on the board or gossip. You want the answers, ask for a public records release. I DID. and that information made it to the legislature.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

There are some other changes you may not be aware of.

There is NO MINIMUM draw weight requirement in the state of Kansas either. No isn't that just great?

The requirement for the Safe Hunting certificat has changed as well. I M not sure when it goes in effect, but you can pay a few extra dollars and then hunt.

This was brought about to reform the Hunter Ed. program in Kansas as well. You could not become an instructor because of a good old boys arrangement. Seems you had to be an archery hunter affiliated with IBEF or KBA or you would not be allowed to become a Hunter Safety instructor.

As far as I M concerned the archery crowd in Kansas has little to bitch about. They got what they deserved. They put alot of people over the barrel and when fought they claimed we were "anti-hunting". What BS! It is true, things will never be the same for archery hunters in Kansas, but they will get better for 5-6 times as many gun hunters in the next few years. I was only a small part of the push. However it was not the outfitters!! The influence in KDWP has changed from KBA to Outfitters because they have more money. Most of the proposals originated in the KDWP, and not at Sec. Hayden's doorstep, but classified employees who used to be affiliated with KBA.

So in the end KBA got sold out by their own people within the KDWP. LOL

BTW, the largest group against allowing non-resident access to permits historically was not the outfitters, but Kansas Bowhunters. That's why it has been so hard for non-residents to hunt in Kansas. They once had a voice, but it has been confronted, and those that were with it sold themselves out and KBA.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Except for the hunter that has land in two, or three, adjoining units!! Go figure, why would the outfitters be against non-resident hunters, that's where thier bread and butter comes from!! I'd guess it's not just bowhunters, but rifle hunters alike that don't want non-resident hunters!!
You wouldn't happen to have the numbers of rifle hunters compared to bow hunters would ya. And, how about the numbers for rifle hunter success! ANd you're saying that out of 20,000 bow hunters, that 16,000 of them killed bucks! Come on, I don't beleive that for one minute!
Sounds like to me you need to buy a bow, and get out in the woods while it's quiet and relax a bit!!

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Quote: Except for the hunter that has land in two, or three, adjoining units

Sorry dude but no other hunter in the state of Kansas can make that complaint, only archery. Rifle hunters, ML, and HG hunters all have to choose a UNIT why would archery be exempt???

Quote: Go figure, why would the outfitters be against non-resident hunters, that's where thier bread and butter comes from!! I'd guess it's not just bowhunters, but rifle hunters alike that don't want non-resident hunters!!

Again, you don't know what U R talking about. Check the Public meeting minutes, you will see that before t-tags (shich I don't like) KBA was against non-residents. Aren't you from Colorado???

Quote: You wouldn't happen to have the numbers of rifle hunters compared to bow hunters would ya. And, how about the numbers for rifle hunter success! ANd you're saying that out of 20,000 bow hunters, that 16,000 of them killed bucks! Come on, I don't beleive that for one minute!

YES I do have the numbers, again available in a public records request. AND they have a 40.1% to 46% success rate (resident Archery) and take 76-80% bucks. Not all hunters are successful. Rifle went from a historical stable 65% success rate with a 50/50 split to a 45% success rate with a 40B/60D split. I know the numbers and you are talking out a lower body orifice.


Quote: Sounds like to me you need to buy a bow, and get out in the woods while it's quiet and relax a bit!!


Sounds like to me you should check the facts before you holler so loud. Keeps you from looking like a raving lunatic. I got the numbers and have researched this a great deal over 5 years. You responded with an emotional uninformed heresay rant. Hope U don't hunt that way.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Marky, Marky, Marky, when some one yells on the computer, they usually use CAPITAL LETTERS!! I never raised my voice, so calm down!!
I simply questioned a couple of your comments, that's all! I am from KS., and own part of the family farm and hunt there annually!! So, that should salidify that I was simply questioning you!! I can hunt there no matter what you say or do, so again, I am simply asking questions!!
Now, Is the success rate, buck to doe ratio, with rifle hunters including the late doe season? Is that possibly why the success rate would seem like it is trending down for rifle hunters?
Are the out-fitters the ones that pushed the T-tags through, or who come up with that idea?
And with the number of bow hunters only being approx. 20,000 it seems that they aren't much concidered as far as "herd managers", where as rifle hunters are. At least that is how it is in CO, bow hunters kill so fewer animals than rifle hunters, even though bow hunters have lengthy seasons, so if bow hunters can't and don't kill nearly as many animals, why limit them to any one certain area?
Hope this reply doesn't look that way, 'cause I am simply asking questions, and apparently it's hot and humid in KS. right now;) And yes I do hunt that way, you know, yelling like an indian on the war path with my bow in hand, it really works well!:eek:
On another note, I will tell ya what does irk me a bit. Here I am a KS. land owner, lving on the wrong side of the state line, but yet I have to pay more to hunt my land than a landowner on the other side of the state line! I don't quite understand that! Maybe you can shed some lite on that for me!

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

It is called the US Constitution, Equal Protection clause. That means that the rules and restrictions apply to all equally. thats why archery was unitized. You can't limit the t-tags and non-resident draw to units if you don't limit the residents. That is a Constitutional issue. so what are you a communist or a fachist? That means all hunters are treated equally. So are all people for that matter.

If that is true how come they don't extend rifle season to do with the lowering of the success rate. And no the extra doe season actually INCREASES success rates, but lowers the buck numbers. So now you got your rationalization wrong, it is lowered and there are even less bucks being taken for the rifle hunting community.

Here's advice, before you post, look up the numbers, ask for official policy and records. These records and official policy statement are not kept down at the local bar, and the individuals on barstools probably do not know what is Fact, but will keep repeating the same tired old rumors over and over. Just like the cougar thing! Don't get me wrong I like bars, however decesions affecting public policy of a shared resource should include everybody, and that determination should be made in the legislature.

As for the T-Tag, it was a combination of things. 1st there was a loud cry from the outfitters and land owners (you get t-tags btw??) and 2nd the legislature was opposed by KDWP to extend gun season at all turns, so they said OK, If you aren't going to play ball, we will take the bat and go home and shut out of the deer management biz. So there you go tied up in a neat package.

Didn't want to extend Gun Season
Didn't want to open new ground to Gun season
Didn't want to over turn the limitations on Rifle hunting.

All three of those are the largest segement of Deer Hunters...Nationally, as well as by state. So 1 group the rifle hunters were p[aying for the whole program and being limited to 13 days and limited permits.

Archery on the other hand
2.5 months
All areas open
NO limitations on tag
No limitations on Unit

HMMMM. Now you see why a heck of a lot of people were upset, and a few upset bowhunters are not going to overturn it, no matter how big a tantrum they throw or how many hypotheatical (that means imaginary) situations they throw out. Kind of like what you do. You ask inane questions with very general and hypothetical nature, I OTOH, give straight answers, compare, and stipulate with facts.

You are kind of boring to respond to. Same tired old BS that keeps getting repeated. But I am not letting hypotheticals, lies, BS, urban legends (or rural ones at that) rule KS hunting regulations or deer herd management as they have historicaly.

Again for your slow thought process:

If rifles are the management tool, why were the rifle hunters being restricted and issued less and less buck tags???? The only tag increase for rifles was does, and I have already shot my pile of does. So have alot of other rifle hunters. Yes I know you have to kill a disproportionate amount of does to control population. SO. What does the archery hunting crowd have anything to say when the does are being taken out almost exclusively by rifle hunters. Remember YOUR WORDS:

HMMM do the math on effect on management. 80% of what bowhunters in Kansas Kill is Bucks, and they have the largest amount of time and area to do that. And granted with this, there is little effect on the herd. Then why when a population is going up as it was/is in Kansas, do you not deregulate and apply less restrictions to your management toolmmmm Rifle hunting.

See??

Just quit making stuff up and what if's. OPEN YOUR EYES, CLOSE MOUTH, LISTEN.

You will learn a lot more.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

That one I am in your corner on. I feel it is a taxation without representation issue, You pay taxes, suffer agri losses, but cannot participate in the privlige you paid taxes for!!!

Have 80 ac or more in Kansas, you can get a HYOL tag. You can also apply for a T-tag, provided those ac, are not in CRP. Acreage in CRP is by the CRP law "not for agricultural purposes, but taken out of agricultural purposes" Can't graze on it, can't hay unless you have a drought issue. And that 80 ac for Kansas must be for "agricultural purposes".

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

I'll stop taking up your time Mark, but for the record, since you're counting, in the last 4 seasons I have taken 11 deer on our farm in KS, and only ONE of them was a buck!!
Also, seems to me that the late doe season was implemented to kill more doe, isn't that working as a management tool?
WOW, thanks for throwing me a bone;) I do have 180 acres, none of which is CRP! Great all around hunting too! But, with my dad being the primary operator of my farm ground, it is cheaper for me to have him buy a HYOL and transfer it to me. Saves me about $10, plus I get to hunt my own land and all the rest of it that he owns/operates!
It's not like I have the opportunity to attend your local meetings, or have the time to go on line to find all the answers! Shess, just question you and I have all the answers in no time flat!! Keep up the good work!! I'm really sorry to "bore" ya, I am just pickin' your brain, which seems to be full of good info!! Lighten up already please:)

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

KLA, Farm Bureau, Famers, Outfitters, Politicians, etc could care less about the deer in Kansas as long as they can get a piece of the pie of money in the process by lobbying the legislature to tweek things their way. The commercialists have been pushing for more liberal tags the last few years so they can do business. They have enlisted the farmers, insurance and livestock lobby, and money hungry legislators to help push KDWP to let up on buck tag restrictions. The only thing that has been accomplished to their benefit have been the t-tags and getting more landowners interested in profiting off the deer and leasing their land.

Now the rifle hunters have always wanted to hunt the rut, wanted OTC tags, wanted statewide tags, didn't want to have to draw an Any deer tag to be able to hunt mulies, wanted to hunt from the start of muzzleloader season to Dec 31st like archery etc etc etc. Rifle hunters always resort to the "What's good for them should be good for us" theory which is really pathetic logic. KDWP knows that lengthing the rifle season, allowing rut rifle hunting, allowing open season on mulies, etc would be detrimental to the herd, basically real poor management of the resource. The KDWP has been doing it this way for 33 years and doing a good job at that. Since KDWP has given into legislative demands, commercial lobbying, landowners complaints, and rifle hunters requests in the last 3-5 years, consider what has happened to the deer resource and hunting as you once knew it, and what it is all turning into.

Restricting archery tags for resident hunters will prevent us from addressing issues like overpopulation problems that they have in their districts. The initial portion of SB#363 is to make it easier for NR hunters to come here(bypassing safety issues in the name of additional revenue)but then the new amendment to the bill will restrict their access to one Unit making it harder for them to find a place to hunt in Kansas. Making a lot of sense right?

Here's something interesting according the the stats, that was sent out from Lloyd.

Archery success rate is 47.1% Rifle Whitetail Either Sex success rate 46.1%

17340 Archery Hunters tagged 8,167 deer 41,662 Rifle Hunters tagged 19,206 deer

WOW, 29% of Whitetail Either Sex are Killed bowhunters. The above rates are the % of deer killed with antlers.

Here is some information on Mike Hayden from a previous question:

He is a politician appointed by a politician. He holds a position that the public has no say in(job security does not pivot on public opinion but rather on pleasing the political power that put him there). His previous experience includes work as a politician in Washington DC, as Kansas Governor, and previous political work in Topeka. He is part owner of an Outfitting Business. He comes from a big farm family. He will represent farming and agriculture interests first before outdoors people. Now combine and compare what you know about him, and with how legislation is being handled and dished out, you have the reason things are being handled the way they are.

There is very little we can do to stop this right now. The resident hunters were shoved aside a long time ago. The only recourse we have is to exercise our voting power to unseat the politicians that voted the way they did. I hope we all can remember how they represented the outdoors people at election time.

Mark, I understand what you are saying, about it not being all just for the outfitters, but it is obvious this is being put in for reasons other than quality deer management. And from the posts you make, you make one obvious point, which is since bowhunters can do it, then why can't rifle hunters do it, or vice-versus? Sorry, but doesn't make much sense to me. And just for everyones information, I hunt both rifle and bow every year in Kansas.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Actually this gentelmen's argument has already been settled. I refer you to "Kansas Hunter's Getting Screwed" thread in the deerhunting forum. I put it TTT so you could review all the propaganda that was put out by Kansas Bowhunter's and their anti-non-resident and anti-firearms attitude. People finally came to notice what it was all about. ALL the information pointing out that KDWP has no idea on the hear size or population is already public record. More than 2 years ago.

QUOTE: Here's something interesting according the the stats, that was sent out from Lloyd.

Archery success rate is 47.1% Rifle Whitetail Either Sex success rate 46.1%

17340 Archery Hunters tagged 8,167 deer 41,662 Rifle Hunters tagged 19,206 deer

WOW, 29% of Whitetail Either Sex are Killed bowhunters. The above rates are the % of deer killed with antlers.

My point exactly. BTW that is for PRIMARY TAGS. I already have that info, and was what I was referring to. Thank you for making the point I already made. Look at the percipitious drop in Rifle hunting success rate and decline in Bucks taken. This is the same side discussion, why would you restrict your main management tool during a population increase??
All the information I presented at public meetings were from the KDWP on a request for information, however my request took aver 6 months to fill, how did you get it co quick. Bowhunters helping bowhunters??

Quote: He is part owner of an Outfitting Business.

Yes and he divested his percentage, and reported it. Old news by about 3 years.

I proposed in 2000, to expand rifle season and require Doe + bounus with no additional tags issued. Have to take a doe first. Not to hunt the rut, to expand the rifle time afield to offset the then increasing population. When the population does go down, then collapse the season back to where it was. The idea was shot down by the commission and rabidly ridiculed at the public meeting over 2 years ago by bowhunters.

What did we hunters get? T-tags, extended season, more permits, game tags, and vehicle strike that did not appreciably decrease. No the previous KDWP methods for setting seasons was not anything to do with herd management, the numbers just don't add up. It was about restricting the rifle hunter, to increase tag sales. That has been the policy since the inception of the deer hunting in Kansas. It is in their policy and management statement, "reduce the success of rifle hunters in order to sell tags to increase revenues into the big game program.

Go ahead, it is all there in the Thread mentioned above.

Like I stated before, the same old misrepresentations stated over and over does not make them true. And many agree with my point of view, than a handful of upset resident bowhunters not having run of the entire state.

In the end is about equality in access and participation. Just because you chose a more challenging (I call it ineffective) tool, does not give you the right of success or gaurnteed access to the part of the season that gives you big bucks. It is quite simple, you are not paying your fair shair for the program, that is shouldered by.... you guessed it the resident firearm hunter.

And no the "They can do it, so we can do it" argument was wearing thin 1-2 years ago, and it has already been dispelled. You have no basis to exclude other hunters just because they use different equipment, they all should be limited the same. Again, you picked a "more challenging" (I call it wounding) method. So don't cry about it. You are not in the majority. Ande everything against bowhunting is not in now way against deer hunting or deer management. I have heard this eglatarian, elitist BS way too long, and just because you pick up a bow doesn't make you automatically concerned about the herd and an ethical hunter. Any more than picking up a rifle makes on a game slob and poacher. Which is what KBA preached for many years, and it came around to bite them in the butt.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Good points Kshunter, but Mark will shoot it full of holes, just give him time! Another point, Gee imagine that, it takes a bow hunter longer to bag a buck, might be becuase a bow hunter needs to get with in, what about 30 yards or so, and a rifle hunter needs to get with in what, about 300 yards.!! Now why would a bow hunter need more time?[:o]
What, offering upto 4 doe tags per hunter, including non-residents, isn't enough to put a dent in the population?[:o]
I don't know, all of my family members don't seem to have any trouble filling their deer tags in the given 10 days or so, with time to kill?
As far as rifle hunters wanting to hunt during the rut, it seems that the rut is still going during rifle season around where my family hunts!

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

This was stated over a year ago by a very wise man in the "Kansas Hunters..."

Sounds like to me you are making the same argument but only applying it to bowhunters.

From Ruger1


A backlash is looming. I believe more firearms hunters are going to be doing business with outfitters(if you loose accesses you move to the next desirable option). On checking these guys out they are very adept at herd management and extremely knowlegable. They operate from hard data. In my opinion that gives them a leg up on the KDWP and this commission. They don' t take such anti-gun stances and they certainly are more welcoming of firearms hunters. One problem about being out of touch with the firearms hunters, is they are the majority and that puts you out of touch with the majority. A time will come when outfitters with the backing of firearms hunters will have the clout to help appoint commissioners to this commission that are far more fairness minded. I and many other hunters will be right their with them.


It appears that that happened in the last legislative session, now doesn't it??

If you read the whole thread, it happened exaclty like we said it would, not what we wanted, but the writing was on the wall. I didn't being right on this one. It was like watching a train wreck or airliner crash in slow motion and I could do nothing to stop it.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Well you choose the bow, don't make the rest of us pay for your need for "Challange". I call it barbaric with the large wounding rate. Already been over the camp ripley study, ok see above mentioned thread. If you need more time, don't take it out of mine.

According to the tables produced, the very end of the Rut in NW Kansas ends in the third week of november and is over by the 1st of December in SW Kansas. There are some second heaters, and a few here ant there, but NO, there is NO Rut at the time of Rifle season. KShunter disagrees with you on that. Remember the cry "Keep the Rifle Hunters out of the RUT".

You guys!!

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Just some things to point out. You apply that herd reduction is the main deer management too here in Kansas. Name one county where the deer are malnutritioned or are having any problems at all directly related to over-population?

I like the idea about having to take a doe first, if the goal in the county was to lower the population. But I also would have shot down the idea. Majority of the rifle hunters I know, wait until the 12th -13th day to shoot any deer, when they've passed up many small bucks and does, waiting for the big one. Do you really think that lengthening the season will help any? Maybe very minimal if any and "majority" of hunters would have already knew that. It'd just give them an extra week of chasing that big one before they settle for a doe or small buck. A great tool for lessening the quality of deer.

If it already dispelled then why are you still using it??? Sorry but you sound like the kid in Highschool who's buddy got a really nice car, so he keyed it to make himself feel better. Same ideology.

Just comes to show you obviously don't talk to different hunters every day, on a regular basis. Here in about a year, once this actually comes to the public more than it has now, you'll be hearing a lot more.

I'll give him some time, [8D]

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

The deer herd is managed for "public tolerance" by Statute. You and I are hunters and want to see big bucks and a healthy herd, Yes? But That is not the legal reason to manage the deer herd. You are pointing out an ideas I agree with, but 130,000 hunters are NOT a majority in the state of Kansa, the remaining 2.5 million are and the majority rules. It has nothing to do with malnutrition of the herd. (Hardly able to happen in Kansas anyway because it is one large food plot ie agriculture).

As for the rest, you didn't read the thread I put TTT for you to read. It was not that simple was my point, and your statement shows rigidity of thinking and the substance an ignorance of management principals and legal requirements and implications. The thread in

deerhunting forum, thread "Kansas Deer Hunters..." shows very clearly my collection of facts, figures, public policy statements and the whol boat of issues you choose to rehash. That argument was a year ago, and because of some very poor actions of KBA members who are employees of the state KDWP lite into a senator, you are sitting in the funk you are now in.

Here is a little bit of information; it is going to get far worse for bowhunters in the future in Kansas. The legislative body is not getting the information and the investigation of KBA member KDWP employees releasing information on an ongonig investigation (misconduct by statute) done by KDWP. There is simply no support for bowhunters in the state anymore, legislatively. What do you expect when you as a hunting community light into senators for crying out load. However, to simply blame it on outfitting is simplistic, and shows that you are not aware of the dirty tricks that were done to a few senators, in the name of KBA. Bowhunters hung themselves on this issue, first by aleinating the firearms hunters, then by lighting into legislative representatives. Why would either of those groups (most hunters BTW) support bowhunting after all the fine things dtated about them, and restrictions, and circular logic (which you display).

For example, look at Howlers post in that thread. Totally different than what he is saying now. He is the one who changed his tune. That's why I put it TTT. You guys don't have a consistent argument nor any other issue than "bowhunters only".

This is called political "blowback". And bowhunters in Kansas made this bed, so quit complaining about it with hypothetical issues. Deal with data. Deal with reality. As a hunting group, you will now experience the same deafening sound of being ignored and your arguments not being heard. I did not do this, but I did predict the current state of affairs over a year ago. Check the thread, read it.

Til then your arguments ring very hollow. Just compare your statements to that made a year ago by bowhunters, my statements are consistent, accurately reflect the ongoing conditions and are backed up by data and legal precedent. Always have been....always will.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

What ever! Seems like most other states have longer bow seasons than rifle season. Can they all be wrong? Is it that all the bow hunters are being "favored" every where these days. Do ya suppose it's about the almighty dollar in every other state too!! Why would Ks. be any different!!
Mark, after you get KS. straigthened out, maybe you could start working on CO. next, after all, the bow hunters out here have several weeks where as rifle hunters get a maximum of 10 days in any one season! And the poor muzzle loaders have to hunt during archery season[:o]

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Howler, just read your posts a year ago. Totaly opposite of what U are saying now.

And No, other states do not have seasons like Kansas. And for the last time, I M NOT ASKING FOR 2 MONTHS AFIELD for rifles, a week or 2 extension when the population increases, and back it off when population decreases. The point was to increase availability to harvest AND NOT INCREASE TAG ALLOTMENTS. How many times I hafta say that. Howler, you agreed a year ago, what changed???? Most of the surrounding states, allow some form of hunting in the Rut for firearms, be it handgun or ML, or rifle. NO, in other states (except for Iowa) archers are limited. In colorado you can ML hunt during Archery season. Kansas is the only state in the US that has a 2.5 month season, anydeer tag, OTC, statewide, with no other hunting method allowed for big game during that time. If that is equal access I have got some great land to sell you. Our ML in Kansas have to hunt in Sept, for crying out loud. I have that in Public Information requests from TX, OK, NE, MO, and CO. My research comparea all four states in season, success, data collection, tag sales, management principals, etc.

All was presented to the KDWP, AG office, and House and Senate legislatore about 35 I believe. They all agreed, KDWP does a terrible job in deer management, and providing equal hunter access.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

And everyone on this board can see the consistancy, and detail in data of my statement. And a committment to Firearms rights and hunting rights.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

BTW, where were you 2 experts when our Governor appointed a lawyer, a wako environmentalist, and a anti-gun nut to the Game commission?? I wrote 100's of emails, made countless phone calls, and dug into my personal pocketbook giving many benjimins to 2nd Amend. Society, and to lobbyists to upstand for my gun rights and hunting rights. I got little help from KBA, most of them did not want to "aleinate" the new commissioners. KBA sat on their hands, because the anti-gun guy told them what they wanted to hear, he would support exactly what You wanted....and he hasn't carried through yet. His name...Kelley Johnston, Handgun Control, Inc.

Thanks for the lack of support, that was gauged too, by the sitting legislature as well when assessing the "commitment" of the Bowhunters to hunting issues.

See, there is a lot that you are NOT aware of. I did not sit on my butt and complain, I found out, I learned, and I took action and literaly put my money where my mouth is. It is easy to sit here and let everybody know what you think, It is another entirely to take action, whether it means finding data agencies don't want to let out, or backing with effort or money a cause that you believe in.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

MarkIIVT

I sent several emails myself and discussed this on 2-3 different boards to gain support, and inform people of what is happening when these 3 were appointed. If your so good at putting your money where your mouth is then get to some other forum where we don't have to listen your ignorant trash. You just love trying to separate the hunters even when you know nothing about what was being said above.

And again for your political "blowback" theory, sure it would have gotten you an A in class, but too bad it's just a hypothetical situation that you and your computer think is what happened. I gave you several reason not only why your proposed plan wouldn't work and why your political "blowback" theory is invalid, and yet all the info you can give me is why you beleive it is true. It just doesn't add up Mark. I can gaurentee that if you took a poll of all Kansas deer-hunters, on whether they supported or were against the unitization of bow permits, there would be over-welming support against any of it. You need to come out of your shell buddy. I doubt you hunt much or actually talk much to the public to real hunters. It's obvious you have a biased opinion against bowhunters and anyone that read this post could clearly see that. Maybe it was the buck you shot with the arrow in the neck... who knows.

You do have a lot of good ideas on certain things, and it seems you are here to help just like the rest of us, and you claim to be on the "hunters" side, just going about it in the wrong biased way. I do not claim to know everything and doubt I have done near as much data research on this subject as you. But data information is only as important as amount you know about the people it affects, which is the biggest part of your theory and your knowledge that is missing.

Enough said on this subject for me, you don't and most likely will never get it, enough time wasted here.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

No you didn't give any defensible reasons, give any data or findings...only ypur opinion. And I gather you propose to speak on behalf of all the hunters in Kansas??? And for about 1000,000 + Firearms hunters??? Quite a bold statement, and you asked all of them of course...oh and the total constituency of the State of Kansas???? WHAT A GUY YOU ARE! And I am not anti-bow hunting, I am PRO Firearms, period and will work at length to get more time afield for myself and other hunters. THAT is not Anti-bowhunting. So don't get me caught up in your anti-rifle hunting atttitude. That's exactly what it is, buddy. And notice I did not denigrate your hunting ability or you personally aas you did with me.

Dude, You are the one living in a dream world. BTW, where do you get he idea of what kind of hunter I am?? I guess you think all those that hunt with a Rifle are not real hunters too??? that is what happens when you don't experience things far away from home, you see the world from a very stunted perspective.

Check the voting record, check the discussion in the legislature, and then tell me again how your finely tuned intuition and your group of friends are in connection with the pulse of the universe. There was political blowback, and it did not go away because you don't agree with that assessment. You are pathetic. AND I made no derrogatory statements on your hunting, just your intellect and understanding of the facts. YOU are the close minded one.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

BTW, Still waiting on the investigation of 2 CO's that released info, in an ongoing investigation, to discredit a Senator or 2 when the unitizing vote and t-tag vote came up. Heard that the Law Enforcement Super got replaced, did you hear about that??

Your ear is so close to the ground, you must have.

As all of our Government Agencies, it is bloated, ineffective, inefficient, and corrupt. No wonder we don't know how many deer there are in Kansas

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Well, I did it, I went back and read that post from last year, well most of it anyways, in the deer hunting forum. Didn't remember it being that long!
For the most part Mark, I argued with you this time, because I like to argue, my wife says!;) And I don't disagree that rifle hunters could/should be given a few more days. I don't beleive that it will help manage the herd though, I beleive it will only make rifle hunters be more selective in the size of antlers they hunt for. I don't think a longer rifle season will lower the deer herd numbers much, as I don't think rifle hunters that have a buck tag are going to shoot a doe until the buck tag is filled. SO, that is where the late doe season come into play. If a guy knows he can hunt for 10 or 12 days for a buck and he knows that he will have another opp. to fill his tag with a doe in the late season, he will hold off and not shoot a doe, until the late season. And especially the non-resident hunters that come in and pay $1500-$3000 to an out-fitter, heck they may go home empty handed and not even come back to fill the tag with a doe at all.
And the land availability issue is only going to get worse. Cities continue to grow, and now the T-tags are driving the out-fitters to lease more land, and leased land in general is becoming the norm., due to land-owners realizing that there is a new source of income, people will pay to hunt turkeys, deer, upland birds, etc. Heck, even the price of land, to buy, is being driven up. You can bet that farmers aren't paying $700+/acre, because they know that they can't farm the land and make a profit.
So, what to do! A longer rifle season may help spread the "rifle hunting pressure" some, and it may up the "buck" kill ratio some, but will it help the herd as a whole?
Why is it that you don't like the game tags and the late doe season? Seems to me that by offering game tags for $11 to everyone is a strong management tool. And I do agree that the Dept. of Wildlife needs a better way of knowing herd rates/kill rates etc., but I'm not real sure how they need to go about achieving them.
I'm not convinced that you're not anti-bowhunting, but I do see and agree with some of your points. I know I don't always listen to what is being said sometimes too, my wife tells me that often:)

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Well...Deer hunting issues make for passionate discourse.

The last post you have, I respect in it's entirety, and I can accept it as it is. Takes some yelling , then when it dies down, we can talk. First we got to get all the stuff out of the way I guess.

I re-read it too. Lots of good arguments, and passionate non-yeilding belief.

That is why I was wanting 4 years ago to have a tag for rifle to have a Doe/buck bonus. Have to take a doe, to get the buck tag.

Maybe that's my problem, I don't have a wife. LOL

I realize I sometimes go over the top a little, and that is why I run to get facts. It is my own internal check, that actually tones down my responses. Yeah, the above was toned down, as you can see from that post a year ago. I was having a hard time last year, very bad year. Very very bad and difficult year.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Who in the world could speak for every 1000,000 firearm hunters and all the hunters in Kansas. On average I talk to maybe 1-2K different hunters per month and get on this subject with maybe half of them. And yes a very very high majority are firearms hunters are just like me on the unitization of bow permits(and i'm talking a 95%-5% ratio). Maybe I only get to talk to just a small of the whole population, but it gives the "common sense" knowledge with real hunters. The same knowledge that won't be picked up from going to school, or surfing the internet gathering hypothetical information.

And like I said before:

It's so obvious your experience with the public is very, very limited. Does that make you a bad hunter... no. Getting to know the public is not done by sitting behind the computer, dweling on something as hypothetically could happen, according to data. I've hunted all over Kansas, know a lot about the culture in different areas, the population, and the attitudes. This is what getting out of the shell and away from your house teaches you. It's getting out there and understanding what people think and believe, about the greatest sport of all... Hunting.

It's not whether you are a bad or a good hunter, it's the ethical logic that makes me question you on the type of hunter you are. I am so against hunters bickering among themselves the rifle vs. bowhunters. It's so stupid because hunters need to unit as a whole, if an anti-hunter read this forum, they'd give you a pat on the back. Just read the first couple of posts before I even came into the discussion because I felt bad for a good guy like Howler getting ripped for the wrong reasons, and the wrong information being sent to the lurkers out there.

Give me one good reason why you think SBC 363 happened because the riflehunters were fed up with the bowhunters? Plain and simple, you have given me no reason other than you obviously being jealous of the bowseason, and yes you are the minority. Sorry but that is pathetic. It's so out there that I can't beleive I am even debating with someone on this issue.


I guess that is a "whoops", no coment on that post from Mark. [&:]


Visit my website, that'll explain enough about my love for Kansas hunting as a whole, rifle or bow. I taken around 50% oof my kills with a bow and about 50% with a rifle. No bias opinion, and no bull####.

Mark you have came up with some good points, the first one that pops in to mind is take a doe before a buck(according to the county only), sounds like a great idea. Especially for counties that are close to the major cities.

Here is something I need to say before I go further. The area around Johnson County(Olathe/Kansas City area) opened their rifle season early this past year to lower the deer herd. This decision was highly pressured by the insurance agencies, and was accepted. During this time period, I talked to so many people so excited since they were able to watch a big buck across the side of a 2-3 hundred yards across the field and nail him, since he was stupid and running after the does. Did this season help the management? Very minimal, it helped take a lot of nice bucks out, and lower the quality deer management goal. This truley made me sick to the stomach, because I heard about this senario so much. Just another mistake made by the KDWP, not because of the riflehunters were being fed up, but because of the money driven lobbyists.

Here's what I truley believe. Mark you are a hunter that doesn't hear much form the real hunting public, but you do care about what Kansas hunting is and hope the best for it. That we can both agree on. You are fairly biased against bowhunters. Why not join as hunters and make a resolution. You obviously know the political and lawful issues more than 99% of the hunters out there. We agree there is a problem and that you think the culprit of the problem is the bowhunters and I think it is because of the majority infuence of the outfitters, lobbyists, commercialists, etc,. How about we put our brains together and achieve something great, like what is BEST FOR THE HUNTING IN KANSAS. Isn't that our whole goal? Please, join us hunters as a whole and we can acheive much more. But first the understanding of the problem is your first real problem in helping of the situation.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

I didn't mean to hit a sore spot but I really do appreciate ALL of the info.

On a lighter note. I got the job and I hope to be a resident fo KS by the end of July:D.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Congrats on the job Sapper!

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

Congrats on the job Sapper, and good luck in finding a honey hole to call your own to hunt on.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

I am going to respond, I had to cool off a little before I said something I really didn't mean. I M not going to let lies, misinformation, and ignorance stand, it will be responded too.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

To make a long story short, I agree a lot with your stance as far as the political side of some problems with SB 363 and why it happened. Main thing I don't agree with and never would agree with, is the bashlash that you claimed happened because rifle hunters were fed up with the long bowhunting seasons, short rifle seasons, etc. And yes this is something that cannot be proven as fact either way. Just have to get to talk to real hunters to know, and a lot of them at that.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

OK, here goes.

About your opinion with my experience with the public being very very limited.

I spend 90% of my time in front of the public dealing with issues such as HAZMAT, WMD, and Occupational illness,disease, and deaths, with consultation, seminars, and training. Issues highly charged, contentious, and having greater consequence than hunting issues. I have traveled the world, filled in 2 passports with visas and entry stamps, and numerous states. I racked up 30,000+ frequent flyer miles in less tnat 2.5 months. Currently I am in Dallas temporarily in front of the public doing the same. Again, Read the thread "Kansas Hunters Getting Screwed". All this has been stated before and you are rehashing the same old tired issues, and p-poor opinions. There are a lot of people that agree with my arguments and deductions.

So you got that one wrong.

So you see I do get "out of the house", and I do talk to other hunters and firearms enthusiaists. As for your talking with "real hunters". I checked out the websites you frequent. 90% of the respondants are bowhunters, so you see your basis is biased. I did not include heresay in my statements such as you did. But I will do so now. At the highpower lines of the gun ranges I visit and frequent the hunters I talked with (I guess they are not REAL hunters since they use firearms in your opinion) support the unitizing 100%, as well as expanded season and land accessibility with increased population trends, which we have in the state. Big Suprise huh?

Just because someone picks up a bow does not automatically make them:
a) Ehtical
b) Keeper of the moral high ground
c) Super hunter
d) More concerned with conservation and deer herd
And just because someone picks up a rifle does not make them devoid of those qualities. According to your posts and others, and your opinionated reasoning, that is in fact what you are stating. That firearms hunters are a bane to hunting in Kansas. Read your posts, read others posts. That is why I M responding.

As for your dressing me down about anti-hunting groups and "giving them ammunition". What the hell do you think you have done? There is a much larger group out there and they are Anit-gunners, and there is a lot more of them than ARs. You (and others like you) paint with a broad brush firearms hunters as taking long shots (200-300 yds you said), that they are unsafe, and that firearms are irresponsible, and a negative impact on the resource. That the character of a firearms hunter is to shoot at anything. Look at all the anti-gun crap that has been said by BOWHUNTERs in the State of Kansas in order to justify their position and keep an exclusive season. This excuse of "I gun hunt too" by you is thin. Here is some news for you, Firearms hunters do not aspire to become bowhunters. Mainly because shooting a gun is FUN. Archery is NOT the epitome of hunting. If you firearm hunt successfully, you have to allow deer to get just as close in order to selectively hunt. Close deer bring in the far deer, very simple, and it is such great fun and a GREAT RUSH. Our national spirit for life, hunting, and liberty is inextricably linked to firearms, not bows and arrows. I suggest you check at some of the things you and others have stated (IN THE STATE OF KANSAS), and see how similar it is to the language of the anti-gunners. It is worse at times than some anti-gun groups. I would stongly suggest you can the malarky on that.

The truth is much different. National surveys show that the majority of shots from hunters on deer is in the 75-150 yd range. There are just too many varibles for a 200-300 yd shot, and it gets lower percentage return. Again, if you were a firearm enthusiastist, you would know that 75-150 is optimum for bullet performance, velocity, wind deflection, shot, placement, and is a whole lot more fun letting them get close, than the reach out an touch something shooting. In Unit 19 where you stated this, the majority of the land is not suitable for such shots WHERE THE DEER ARE. There is timber, obstructions, etc. Many places a 200-300 yd shot is physically infeasible in that area where there would be deer. I know, I lived in the Lawrence-Topeka area for 12 years. Agian, your opinion, does not fit the facts, nor the real life conditions. It is just something you believe after "talking with someone".

Additionally my informant in KDWP (and a bowhunter) tells me that you are wrong about Unit 19 being bad for management. It seems KDWP is about to make a statement about what a success it was in terms of more hunter access, recuction of the doe population without undue stress on the herd in terms of quality. Seems the Buck/doe ratio for firearms was around the 50/50 split again. So you are wrong on that as well. Again, you did not check facts, but stated an unsubstanciated opinion.

BTW, I am not "jealous" of "your season". Because, it is not "your season". These things are not nor should be carved in stone. If management is to manage, then the flexibility in season length and placement is a must. The seasons whatever they are belong to the PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF KANSAS. Not bowhunters, not firearms hunters, not outfitters, not AR or anti-gunners, but to all, and is stipulated and directed by the majority, not just one group. It is based on management goals and data illustrating the conditions present. And rights and laws are to be EQUALLY APPLIED by US Constitution, and not for some inane reason. And the logic that bowhunting in Kansas needs to have a 2.5 month season and the rut because the of "challange of the sport because of success rate", is under serious trouble. Since firearm success rate is below archery in the state, does that me firearm hunters should get 2.5 months and the rut now???? HMMMMMM????

As for "political blowback'. Check the bowsite threads. The KBAers are not happy with the effect of what their efforts provided. Even they are saying "KBA's reputation in the legislature is mud because of the actions and statement of members interacting with members of the legislature". Did you know in the last legislative session that KDWP was barred from many Rep and Sen. offices. That they lite into a lot of Senators and Representatives. Did you know the amandment that preceded SB 363 was a proposal to smoke out the bowhunters in the KDWP employ, a political fishing trip??? Very good authority I have this on, whether you believe it or not.

SO, do not profess to me you have the moral, factual, or cultural high ground on this issue. You do not. And I do represent a majority, not you and your little group *****ing about doing what every hunter in the state has to do. So suck it up!

And this is a gun rights issue. I want more new hunters. Most new hunters are firearms hunters. The NRA president Dean Keane stated the need to expand opportunity and the need to protect the weekend firearms hunter as a policy for the NRA. This group is the largest in NRA and the nation, and is the biggest supporter of 2nd amdn. rights issues. If you look where CCL do not pass, there is a strong archery provision in those states. Coincidence, I think not. You see by denegrating the firearms hunter in order to save your exclusive hunting privlige, your group undermines 2nd amend issues.

RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
 

MULE DEER

KS HUNTER

Saw on your your NAWF site the thread about the Mule Deer. That is whyunitizing tags has got you so upset. It is not about hunting in an adjacent unit, with 9 units you will be able to do the equilivant of that combared to firearm hunters. It will limit your free run of the state and taking anydeer you see, anywhere. That's why you are going to Oakley, isn't it? Will be the last year you may be able to do it. BTW, I grew up there and go back often, south of Oakley momument rocks area if you can find access, good luck on getting access. Most are the t-tag people and are not happy with bowhunters and their legislative shenanagans.

It is about you hunting in Clay County for a portion of your hunt and then trapesing out to Oakley some 300 some miles away from that Clay County Unit, so you can Hunt Mule Deer. DUDE! No hunter can do that, except the State wide anydeer OTC, archery resident. The poor ML even have to draw. BTW, mulies are not going to be that easy in spot and stalk hunt, there is little cover and they see a long way. Yeah they do act different than whitetail, but they are not "easy". They are durable and hard to kill. That is another myth that KDWP has perpetuated without any supporting data, as my and your observation show different.

Next year the "any deer" will also be stripped off the resident archery permit as well. WHY?

Because all resident archery are "anydeer", and non-res archery are "whitetail only". Same issue as the bowhunters were raising heck about, non-resident archery being statewide, so what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and constitutionally protected. So the "species" tag will come.

Look at it in another way 40,000+ Firearms hunters have to "draw" for an available 3700 tags. All archery tags are mule deer included. So 100% for archery (and you can go anywhere for the next year which explains your trip to Oakley) and <1% for firearms.

AND, you and your buddy saw the same thing as my hunting crew saw LOTS of Mule deer, you and he stated that very clearly. So why is KDWP cutting firearms tags for mule deer????? They say there is a population decrease, however my hunting crew, you and your buddy on NAWF agree there are "LOTS".

See the problem yet, or do I have to get out the crayons and coloring books for you as well as "population indicators 101".