BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

[align=center][/align][align=center]Introducing Tiger of Cattail Corky SHR, CP
[/align][align=center]Excellent Bloodlines-Black/Yellow Factored
[/align][align=center]Sire Grandmaster pointing lab Cashzingers Cattail Corky out of HPK( view the sires pedigree@<a href="http://www.pointin...ng-lab.com</a>)
[/align][align=center]DOB 5-23-01, AKC/ UKC regestered, and DNA Profiled
[/align][align=center]OFA#LR-133803G24M-P1, EYE CERF, and Thyroid Normal. 75lbs pure muscle!
[/align][align=center]Tig has an excellent trainability and a natural desire. Superior marker,eager and willing on blind retrieves. Remarkable endurance and drive yet calm and relaxed in the home with our three young children.
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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

What is a CP? What does CP mean?

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

I believe it means CERTIFIED POINTER.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

And CERTIFIED POINTER means or is....... What?

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

A Labrador Retreiver that is certified to point at the first level (of four) categories of performance (as a retriever as well as a retriever that points).

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

What?:eek:

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Pointing Labs havefour levels of certification (titles). CP (Certified Pointer), APR (Advanced Pointing Retriever) and MPR (Master Pointing Retriever) -- Oh, there is also GMPR (Grand Master Pointing Retriever)

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

OK then we are making progress.

What does a dog have to do in the test to become a CP?

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

A Pointing Lab what exactly would you do with one? Why not just get a Pointer. I am sure they would find more birds.
Sounds Like buying one of those sport utility trucks not realy a truck.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

For the same reason that people like GWPs or DDs. They are truly multi-purpose dogs. A traditional pointer might or might not find more birds. They would certainly cover more ground, but I've seen a few pointers that are so fast, that they will blow by some birds, where as the slower,more methodical dog won't cover as much ground, but they won't blow past birds either. For upland birds, both pointers and pointing labs have their positive and negative aspects.
A lot of people can't have - or don't want more than one dog. Why not "just get a pointer?" -- Very few of them will handle very well on blind retrieves, very few of them are willing to break ice water all morning for waterfowl, very few of them will sit quietly in the duckblind all morning scanning the sky for 'incoming' very few of them are 'natural retrievers'.

There are very few truly multi-purpose breeds that do well for both waterfowl hunting as well as upland and fur. GWPs, DDs and PLs do.

If YOU hunted waterfowl, upland and furred game all in the same day, and you could only have one dog, what would you chose?



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

All breeds have their positive/negatives -- it's why we have different breeds. Find the one that matches your style of hunting, has the temperment you like, maybe even the looks you like, and get a pup.

Well, I guess I can't make up my mind because I have a DD and a GSP, and have had labs, springer spaniels, and even an English cocker. Here are my observations about the breeds I have owned.

DD - so far very nice. Nice search, good point, medium drive, intelligent, great temperment (a friendly dog, but you would not want to come into my house without me opening the door for you), matures mentally at a medium rate. Likes to retreive but is certianly not retrieve crazy. Not as tough as a lab as far as pressure, but not as stuborn either. We will see, but so far, they are do-it-all dogs. Quiet dogs, not big barkers, chewers, or diggers.

GSP- high drive, super intelligence, friendly. That super high prey drive makes up for lots of stuff, will run huge, will hit the water, is an all day dog. They are sensitive which makes advanced retriever training kind of difficult, they will also hold a grudge if you screw up in training, mature very quickly, and are mentally adult at just a little over a year. They will retrieve readily, but would rather be out making stuff happen. Fur, feathers, blood, it doesn't matter. If your GSP barks, there is something out there. They are not destructive at all.

Labs - high drive, intelligent, some have been pretty hyper. They mature mentally SLOWLY, which means years of puppyhood, which some people do not realize when they get a lab. Awesome retrievers, good upland dogs. Most lack any aggression and are poor guard dogs. Easy to train, especially for beginners. Screw up, wait a day or two, and all is forgiven. It takes a special kind of idiot to mess up a lab -- they are that forgiving. They get bored and can be destructive as hell, some are especially bad chewers.

Spaniels -- I love spaniels, too bad they don't point. They will hunt anything and everything with that spaniel gusto. They are good natured, easily handled, great with kids, they can be nervous. Cold water, heavy brush, or a day at the beach, a spaniel is just glad to be there with you. Probably the best heavy cover pheasant and rabbit dogs you are going to find.


I like them ALL. Dogs are cool! I hate cats though :)

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

I guess it is the way i grew up. we hunted quail with a pointer and a setter. we had a place in south dakota we hunted pheasants but did not use dogs. we hunted ducks never had a retreiver. we hunted doves no dog. we never hunted anything with furr except after the hunt in the local bars. i still think that dogs serve a specific purpose. that is why we have pointers, setters, britts, [gsps], (mostly pointer blood as of now) and retrievers. No one will ever convince me that a pointer can retrieve as well as a lab. likewise no one will ever convince me that a lab is a good bird dog. not in theremakeup
most drops make good pets some make good bird dogs

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Pointing Labs recently took 1st and 3rd Place in the Colorado State Pheasant Championships....And they were running in the Pointing Division. :D



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Well daleh, you are very misinformed as to what many breeds of dog are capable of. Doc E I don't believe that there is such a thing as state championship for dogs in anything. Those events are the bush league bird shoots. They hold no merit as to which or what dog is better than the other.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

The name of the event was the "Colorado State Pheasant Championship". Quite a few states have these events. There is a National Pheasant Championship as well.Do a Google Search using the words "Pheasant Championship" and you will gain some new knowledge.
True, they are 'run and gun' events, thusit's a team effort betweeen dog and human, against the clock. It's set up similar to the National Bird Dog Challenge Association events.



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

That makes the point very well Doc E. Thank you....:D

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

That's not really fair. True, the run and gun stuff is probably not the best evaluation of a bird dog, but being successful enough to beat other pointing breeds certianly shows that the dogs can find birds, point them, and then retrieve them....that is all a lot of guys want.

Now, if you are trying to say that winning a couple run and guns makes you ready for the All Age Class at the Ames Plantation or a contender in NAVHDA Invitational....I would say you are smokin some good stuff.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Well just the fact that labs are in a divison that is a pointing divison, shows a lack of credibility of those things. They want the guys money so they(the people who put these events on) have lowered the bar so low that basically any breed of dog can enter in the pointing divison, or can be called a pointer, if the owner has enough money to get the standards changed. It is hunting dog blasphemy!![:-]

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Er - Uh - not quite correct. The only dogs allowed in the pointing division are the various pointing breeds - the various setter breeds and pointing labs. If you're going to 'dis' something, you need to learn a little more about it first. :eek:
You probably have run in some good Pointer events (congrats if you have), buthave you ever run in a "run and gun" event? It really doesn't sound like you have.
What do you think of the National Bird Dog Challenge?
It's organizations like NAVHDA, NSTRA and some other pointing dog organizations that won't allow PLs to compete that is blasphemy. PLs took 1st, 2nd and 4th places in the first NAVHDA trial in which they were allowed (the Pres. of NAVHDA ran PLs in that event! ! ) It only took a year or two for PLs to be 'disallowed''................Hmmmmm. Ever wonder why? It's because the elitist pointer dog folks couldn't stand being whipped by a Labrador, that's why.
You need to do some study in NAVHDA history.



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

The above quote shows the total lack of credibility on the subject by the poster.
1) In NAVHDA tests, no matter at what level of testing, there is no such thing as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place. If so then NAVHDA tests would be competitions. NAVHDA tests, test dogs against a standard and award a prize classification to the dog. Prize 1, Prize 2, prize 3, or a no prize (fail). All dogs could flunk the test (no prize) on a certain day or all pass the test with Prize 3 classifications on a certain day. Ther are no places given in a NAVHDA test.;) Your NAVHDA history is filled with untruths. Though two "pointing labs" were run by the then president of NAVHDA Bodo Winderfelt those dogs were run at the natural ability level. There is big jump from a natural ability level dog to a complete utility dog. The PL may or may not be able to complete the higher level of testing. It will never be known, as the labrador is not a recognized pointing breed by NAVHDA, so they decided not allow them in the tests. That is NAVHDA's choice. It is hard to disagee with the choice, since all guys say they have a lab that points at least "sometimes". The tests would be filled up with guys and labs that didn't point, when true versatile dogs would have to sit on the side lines because the tests were filled with "pointing labs". It is an organization thing.:eek:

As far as the elitist in NAVHDA, NSTRA, etc.....those types exist in every dog organization and testing/trialing venue on the planet. The retriever clubs think the only breeds that can retrieve a duck are labs, goldens, or chessies, so it goes both ways.....Like retrieving a dead duck floating 30 yards out is some great canine feat, that only retriever breeds can do.[:'(]

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

You are correct -- (I was going from an old memory/recollection)I went back through some of my stuff and it was that 3 of 4 Labs entered were awarded "Prize" of some level. My bad -I'll check my info out before posting out of recollection in the future.
30 yard retrieve? 3 month old Labs do 30 yard retrieves. It's the 300 yard marks and blinds that we 'brag' about.



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

So, what do you think of :
1. NSTRA?
2. NAVHDA?
3. NBDCA?



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

I'll take this one.

NSTRA = is the dog broke? Field seeded with poor birds about the size of a Walmart parking lot. Certianly a dog like Brenda Roe's Snips Ticked Off who can win 30 or some other ridiculous number is something special, but NSTRA does not impress me.

NAVHDA = I know a dog who scored a perfect in the Utility test and qualified for the invitational. She is by far the finest dog I have ever seen, and I have been around to some events for versatiles, pointers, and retrievers. I am working with the woman who trained her, and hopefully my own bearded prospect will qualify for the Invitational one day. A Utility dog is something special, make no doubt about it, they are truly versatile, and they can do it all.

NBDCA- I watched a couple of seasons on it on tv, but have never been to an event. After seeing it on tv, don't think I would be interested. Most of the dogs I saw were half-broke steady to flush, and the majority were not force broke to retrieve. Bad dog work and bad handlers. There was some entertainment to it all though.

DocE - I visit your pointing lab site (assume you are the same DocE) and you guys are really cutting your own throat as far as NAVHDA is concerned. If you guys would just declare yourselves a distinct breed, separate from the regular labs, put forth some breeding guideliens which restrict breedings to PL only, NAVHDA would probably let you test.

Your problem, as I see it, is you guys cannot decide if you want to have PL or field trial labs, so you try to mix and match. How many posts over there are "I havea PL bitch but want to breed to a FC non-pointing lab, is there point in his pedigree".

As Yoda would say, do or do not, there is no try. Make up your mind, establish some breeding criteria, and then the PL might be recognized.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

That can only berecommended by the "Breed Club" to the AKC. There are a few thousand PLs in the world and Gazillions of non PLs. There is no way they will ever be called a different breed. In fact, they AREN'T a different breed. They are 100% Labrador Retrievers -- they just happen to point instead of flush.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

and that is why you willnever be recognized by NAVHDA. The rules say only "pointing breeds" are allowed. A labrador retriever is not a pointing breed. A pointing labrador retriever would be a pointing breed, but you guys don't want to break off, so you won't get into NAVHDA.

I disagree with the "breed club" being recognized by AKC. NAVDHA is pretty liberal as far as what they consider a breed registry, you could easily establish your own pointing lab breed club, start keeping stud books and establish breeding guidelines. You already have the APLA, if they chose not to enforce breeding restrictions, then it's your clubs fault...not mine.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the PL's, but there is no consistency, which is why I won't buy one. Guys breed dogs that point to dogs that don't point, and so on and so on. The breed has suffered. These dogs have been around for going on thirty years...has there been much progress in the breed as far as pointing consistency? You still have breeders that won't guarantee a pup will point. After thirty years, pointing should be a given, but you guys keep diluting your breeding stock with non pointing dogs because you want those damned AFC/FC after the dog.

As a side note, the Deutsch Langhaar and the Large Musterlander pointer are the same dog, only difference is color, the Llewellin setter is still an English setter but the dogs must go back to a specific dog...yet NAVHDA recognizes the four breeds as distinct, because that is how they present themselves.

Really, I don't care, I don't have a dog in this fight, but please don't make statements like "NAVDHA won't let us in because they are afraid a bunch of labs would beat them". It's sour grapes. The dogs could certianly compete, do well, and have success, but they are not allowed in because the PL community wants the rules changed to fit their demands. In other words, quit blaming a good organization like NAVHDA because your organization the APLA is weak and wont develop and enforce a breed registry and breeding restrictions for pointing labs.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Well being recognized by NAVHDA is no great thing or something I would strive for. NAVHDA papers are worthless as no other organization will let you registered a dog using them. The papers are only good for checking the test scores of your dog's ancestory, those that were tested in NAVHDA. NAVHDA has created its own little social/breeder club. It is all based on test scores and being one of the gang. I know of dogs that were from a "backyard" breeder as NAVHDA would call them who have achieved prize ones and awards from other venues. None of these dogs are even considered for breeding purposes. The owners are not NAVHDA cronies. Most NAVHDA guys are really not hunters. All one needs to do is hang around at a few training days. It becomes all too obvious that all the training is directed toward passing the test, not hunting situations.[&:]

Also I would pretty much agree with Alaska Magnum's evaluation of the other dog venues. I would ad one note of caution on the NAVHDA UT dogs. If the dog is trained by a pro to run in the test, then stay away from it. They are using all sorts of gimmicks in training, to get under achiever dogs to pass the utility tests. The only question you need to ask about the dog is, "how many WILD birds has the dog had shot over it, and what kinds?" Make sure you ask about waterflowl too. All you will get is some stumbling mumbling answer from most NAVHDA guys about how "ol Shooter" would be a great dog if we hunted this or that with him. They are pen raised bird hunting dogs, 90% of them. Cook book trained to pass the test, then bred as some great gift to the hunting dog community. Seen it, know it, have experienced it.[:'(] The NSTRA venue is for parking lot hunters, as that is what the dogs basically run in. I would not feed any Snips dog, no matter how many titles are on it.

You really aren't missing out on anything DocE. Just keep plugging along, and enjoy your dog. He points, he retrieves. He has been judged worthy of merit in several credible dog events . What else can a guy ask for? I have trained and tested next to a dog that went on to become a NAVHDA VC. I would not bring the dog home if I found it on a road wandering. Many UT NAVHDA dogs are way over rated.:D

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

AlaskaMagnum
Do know how hard it is to focus a club in one direction? Especially, stubborn dog people? Even the National Llewellin Gun Dog Club (NLGDC) has been torn up over a minor issue. We are a breed club (I'm a member) that run our own trials on our own rules. Our dogs are basically walking dog type trials so we adopted NSTRA similar style rules. Now, since AF won't recognize NSTRA events, a few people want to be affiliated with NSTRA and some want to stay independant. We had major officers of the club leave because of this. Note: AF is very important to us since they've kept the Llews as a separate registry since the beginning and the club has kept it's ties with AF.So, the club is hosting an open breed derby this year, and woah, all of crap is comming from NSTRA Llew owners.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Truth be told....this is Alaska dude, everybody hunts, women can wear fur coats down the street, and you can keep pictures of you with your dead fish and game at your desk and nobdoy cares. I will agree some hunting dog clubs are full of bitty women who don't even hunt but think they know exactly what a hunting dog should do, but up here, it just is not the case

I also do not believe NAVHDA is the end all be all of testing, and their registration is good for well....getting into NAVHDA events. The PL people want a place to test their dogs against other breeds that are versatile, and the JGHV sure as hell is not going to be hosting PL's anytime soon, so NAVHDA seems to be their only logical option right now.

Mite - seems like from your post, you already know the correct direction to take. There was a big bruhaha at the Deutsch Kurzhaar club because some guys wanted to keep breeders from breeding to shorthairs, others wanted to be able to breed their Kurzhaars to the shorthairs and still remain in good standing with the breed club. The mixers lost, let's see what shakes out because of it.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Any one care to put their money were their mouth is?
Field Trial open to any pointing breed on the first weekend in April.
It will be judged accordingly to American Field Standards.
i will personaly put up $1000.00 against any thing that points!!

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

AFS tests of pointing dogs requires no retrieveing to my knowledge. They do not even shoot the pointed birds. Pointing dogs should point birds, good ones will retrieve to hand, from land or water. They should also track and retrieve cripple game, and honor a bracemate. The dog should also be steady. Because a dog finds birds, and you need to follow it on horse back, doesn't mean you or your buddies dogs are anything. Your whole demeaner, that you want to bet, shows a severe case of "little man's disease". On top of that you probably only have confederate money.[:'(]

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Nice offer -- but Pointing Labs are not considered a pointing breed by American Field.


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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

I agree 100% (as much as I hate to --- ;)-- just jokin)



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RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

Just stay on the computer that is were you hunt and train dogs the most.
Yes, i do have confederate money and the best bird dogs as well
But, if you can get yourself out of the house come see some of the best dogs run at the field trial in April
Open Shooting Dog
Open All-Age
Open Derby

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

There is too much bickering going on. Everyone has differing taste, that's why everyone has different breeds. Whichever venue you chose to compete I'm sure it's very tough to win.Without actually competing in another venue, how can anybody say that the competition or venue is really poor? Each venue looks for different things which abystander wouldn't see. So,watching it without knowwhat to look for is entirely different than actually competing.

BTW, AF has differing styles. Shooting,Walking, Amatuer, etc. they even supported NSTRA events for many years.

Anyway,this is sooooo off topic. This guy just want to sell his pups.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

pointing labs cause a stir again!!
http://www.huntersrosekennel.homestead.com/litters.html

some vids of pups that Tig has thrown. If your interested.

The pointing lab is here and it is not going anywhere, the point will become more and more intense as time goes by with the right breeding.
Good luck to all, owners of all breeds, watching dogs work is awesome,having a heavy game bag and a tired dog is a great feeling of accomplishment and deserves a cold one.

RE: BLK Pointing Lab at Stud
 

And the "stir" has gotten you over 400 'hits' on this thread too ;)



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