BuckMaster7

In recent years shotgunners in the USA have seen a flood of new makes and new models coming in from other countries. Japan has been a big factor in the US market for years (Weatherby, Browning, SKB, some Winchesters, etc) and now we are seeing many guns from Europe and western Asia - Fausti, B. Rizzini, Verona (FAIR) and C. Guerini from Italy, Huglu and others from Turkey, Baikal from Russia, etc. Now it seems there is a race on between the US gun makers to introduce new low-cost models made in those countries. Remington has introduced a line called Spartan, which is made in Russia by Baikal. Marlin has a line of SxS and O/U guns using the venerable LC Smith brand name, but made by Fausti of Italy. Browning and Winchester are both owned by a Belgian conglomerate, and who knows where their guns are being made today. I think I read somewhere that Mossburg is getting into that parade as well.

Some people have commented about the cheaper labor in other countries, but I wonder if it is the labor cost that makes the difference. Labor is probably a factor, but I'm not sure it is the major factor. Many of these guns are made in Italy, and Italy is not known for its cheap labor - although it may be a little cheaper there than in the USA. If the truth be known those guns probably don't have much hand work in them anyway, so labor is not a major factor.

I think it is a matter of entrepreneurship. Some gun makers in Italy, Turkey, and Russia have invested in high-tech computer-controlled machine tools that can crank out large quantities of parts machined to high tolerances. I expect that even the wood finishing is mechanized to some extent. People are needed only for final assembly, and of course a few people who can oversee the computer-controlled tools.

In contrast, the old US gun makers are so conservative and set in their ways that they are afraid to make risky investments in modernization. Plus the fact that they don't have much money, since they have had such a hard time competing with foreign makers in recent decades. Many American gun makers have already gone through bankruptcies and buy-outs.

I think the US firearms industry is going through the same thing that US automakers did a few years ago (maybe it was a few decades ago - when you get as old as I am time flies). The US automakers were so old-fashioned, so lacking in innovation, and so complacent about quality and design that they were unable to compete with the Japanese car makers, so they started expanding their product lines by adding models made in Japan. Eventually the US car makers were able to improve enough to begin to compete again.

US gun makers are simply not able to compete with the newer, smaller, more innovative foreign gun makers, so they have finally realized that "if you can't lick 'em, join 'em". Now they are expanding their product lines with models made by the competition. Will they be able to survive the way that the car makers did? Only time will tell. If they are going to have a chance to survive, it can only be through modernization of their designs, their manufacturing facilities, and most of all their management culture.

By the way, Remington seriously needs to come up with a new 870. It's a rust bucket with that matte black finish and it looks crappy compared to a Benelli. Benelli rules in the shotgun world. Also Remington's new 710 is a joke. You can't even take the barrel off.

buttonbuckmaster

Yes a $275 870 express is going to look bad when compared to a $1,000 Benelli. I own a Bakail MP153 and I love it. Don't really care where it is made or by who. The gun is a shooter and for what I paid, an incredible value.

BuckMaster7

Look at the Benelli Nova. It's innovative unlike the remington. I did get an 870 though because the Nova is made for taller people like Tom Knapp and I'm not a 3 1/2 inch fan. Remington is still using 1950's technology. Okay, will compare apples to apples. I rather take the M2 or Super Black Eagle 2 than an 11-87. It just an 1100 jacked up in price because it can take 3 inch loads. Plus remington jacks up the price of their guns when you get a smaller barrel for some reason. They call them special purpose guns. They also only have 26 and 28 inch barrels if you buy a regular 870. I don't know why people like the bigger barrels on the 12 gauge when speed increases barely after 24 inches.

buttonbuckmaster

An 1187 to SBE??? Apples to apples? You could buy an 1187 and 2 870's for the price of a SBE 2. If you are going to compare guns, make sure they are in the same price range. Thats like comparing a Ford Focus to a Cadillac because they both are vehicles. One is high end, the other is utilitarian.

BuckMaster7

Okay, lets compare a M2 to an 11-87. M2 $1000 11-87 $800 for premier

First off, the M2 comes with 5 chokes. I know that 11-87 doesn't. The M2 weighs less also and even the SBE does and it's 3 1/2 inch. They come with comfertech grip which I think is really great and other features like inertia recoil which make the 11-87 obsolete.

You could buy an 1187 and 2 870's for the price of a SBE 2. If you get the premier 11-87 that's not true.

kelbro

Why has gun manufacturing moved outside the US? I think that a BIG reason is the fact that every dumb @$$ that shoots themselves in the foot thinks the manufacturer owes them a few million $$ and juries here agree with them. Try suing a Russian or Italian company.

Briman

I just have almost no interest in Tristar/Diana/Baikal/etc. I know people who have bought stuff from these companies and have been happy, but I'm not willing to spend money on something that is new and completely unknown.

The one exception that I prefer that is a relative newcomer to the American market is CZ. The've been in the rifle business for a long time and also make top notch pistols- all at prices where you get a lot of value for your money. American companies like Winchester and Remington try to make rifles out of cheaper materials to compete with far superior stuff coming from overseas- I always feel like they are pissing down my back and telling me that its raining. Sadly I think the bargain prices of CZ firearms will be a thing of the past soon with the Euro outpacing the American dollar in value.

buttonbuckmaster

Buckmaster7, I guess we will agree to disagree. You think that Benelli walks on water, I think you are getting an overpriced shotgun when you buy the "B" guns. They are very nice. But if you want to pay for benelli's adverstising go ahead. Why are you so down on Remington? Did you miss a deer with one and hate the company now? Maybe you need justification for overpaying for your new shotgun.

WA7MM

Okay, lets face it. Remington has made basically the same shotguns since the 1950's. Yes they are good and reliable, but that doesn't mean they are in the same grade of product development and sophistication than Benelli.

Benelli shotguns may be expensive to some extend, but they are worth the price when it comes to reliability and sturdiness.

If american gun makers want to keep up with the pace the industry is showing around the world, they should invest to make new, reliable, affordable and technologically top of the line products. If they keep living on past glories they will probably fade away like those memories........

Just my 2 cents

kelbro

One more thing for the Benelli bashers. Every Benelli buyer obviously had the ability to buy a Remington (or two) and made the choice to invest in a Benelli. I would say that most of us have owned or still own American shotguns. For me, the choice was made for durability, simplicity, and quality fit and finish. Birds don't care how much you paid and I could care less about any presumed 'status' that some bestow on the Benelli. I bought mine because I wasn't satisfied with the American offerings. Same reason that I drive a Nissan truck. I believe that most others, like myself, would really prefer to buy American.