stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

stubblejumper....

after my father picked up some 150ge. nosler ballistic tips for his savage scout and getting decent groups at 100yds. ( 1&1/4" )
i was thinkign of going with the nosler ballistic tips. but since most shots are under 75yds since i have found some real nice spots a few revines overlooking swamps.
could this round deflect twice as bad when hitting a twig since it has a plastic like tip?
also how do they hold up for close up shots ( 50yds or less )? i have used the win ballistic tips in the past did the job but like you know i have heard and seen offhand what can happen with them.
also since they seem to " mushroon " up on contact is it worth going to them for shots under these conditions. what grain size should i go with? 165gr. 180gr.? sdince they do expand instantly.

i know my gun might not shoot as good but i will give them a try this weekend.

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RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

If you really give it some thought, bullets with a high ballistic coefficient should deflect less than rn or flat point bullets, not the other way around. A bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient is deflected by wind alot less than a pudgier bullet. If wind causes less deflection, then other objects should cause less deflection also.

The myth that flat nosed bullets are brush busters goes against all logic. A bigger leading edge of a bullet should be more likely to catch on brush rather than pushing it aside or gliding past it like you could imagine a spitzer bullet doing.

The speed of the bullet shouldn't matter a bit when it comes to deflection. A beam of light hitting a mirror will bounce off the mirror in the same manner that a stone thrown by a boy will bounce off the surface of a pond.

In real life, as Otis and many others have pointed out or tested themselves, bullets do not plow through brush, or otherwise have their flight path unaffected by obstacles no matter what the design.







Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Quilly don't waste your time with Ballistic tips especially hunting in Maine. Buy a regular soft point bullet and you'll never regret it. Ballistic tips are a lot of Hype.......This is another myth the boat tail bullet...You'll only see a miniscule difference after about 400 yards and if you shoot something close it turns itself inside out. there is only one exception to this rule and that is the Swift Scirroco.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

the reason why i ask about hitting branches is because of the plastic tips being deformed or made breaking off? i don't know if it is possible.
as for me using seirra gamekings SPBT's i am using now getting 1.080" groups.i didn't know if it will be a better bullet at 75yds or less and the bullet staying inside the animal dumping all the energy from the bullet inside the deer instead of the gamekings going out the other side.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

I used 180 nosler ballistic tips in my 300Ultramag on a whitetail in Canada.It did severe damage but dropped it on the spot.The sirroccos didnt group very well and the noslers grouped .75" at 100.So I would say use whatever shoots the best.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

ploopy....

how far was the shot? did the bullet exit the deer? also what do you mean by it being severe? meat loss etc?

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Quilly -I have taken two bull moose and two bull elk with 180 gr ballistic tips and three out of four bullets exited with the fourth stopping under the hide after penetrating the bulls chest and offside shoulder.I have also taken over two dozen animals consisting of deer ,pronghorn and bighorn with 100gr ballistic tips out of my 257wby,140gr ballistic tips out of the 7mm-08,7mmrem mag and 7mmstw with the vast majority of bullets exiting with no bullet failures.Not one animal to date has travelled 50 yards after being hit with a ballistic tip with most dropping on the spot or within a yard or two.My velocities are far above what your rifles will develop so I would not worry at all about bullet performance with ballistic tips.In your situation I would try a 165gr ballistic tip.If you place this bullet through the lungs you will get quick clean kills and tracking should not be necessary.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

stubblejumper..

do you think since my shots are under 100yds these bullets will cause more damage and cause i deeper wound channel since the velocities?
also what do you think about it if i had to get a shot off in the brush under close qurters? ( i know it will deflect like any bullet ) but since she has a plastic tip do you think it will deform easier or maybe break the tip off?

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Quilly-I use only lungshots and meat damage is not a problem.Since your cartridges produce much less velocity I would not worry at all if lung shots are used reguardless of the range.As far as the plastic tips they are harder than lead and do not deform as easily.Even if they were to break off the ullet will deflect no more than a lead tipped bullet.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Quilly, stubblejumper
My understanding is the balistic tips were designed to protect the nose of the soft-point bullets in magazines of the larger bore/magnimum calibers. After a couple of shots and a reload or two the bullets in the bottom of the mag had damaged tips which did cause accuracy problems. The hardness of the balistic tip did not deform after repeated firings and that was the design.

As far as which is better I don''t believe there is a significant differance as long as we are talking hunting bullets vs hunting bullets and not the varmit bullets vs hunting bullets.

My 2 cents


Greg

"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

All I use is Sierra Boatails and Ballistic tips out of my hunting rifles. I currently only have a 270 win, I shoot 130 Ballistic tips at our Canada Monsters (our deer are no skinny 110 lbs, many tip in the 275 plus range on the hoof) I can think of only one true tracking test and that wasn't the bullet fault but the shooter (who remains faceless) put it smack in the shoulder. In this case the bullet came completely apart, it busted up the shoulder and screwed a lot of front end meat. But again it wasn't the bullet, but the guy who put it their in the first place. All other lung shots it was minimal and I have had always complete pass throughs, with good blood trails. Most of my deer come down either on the spot or less than 50 yards.

I hunt some wide opens, but a lot of big bush as well....either situation no problems.

I would feel confident with ballistic tips in, but if your Sierra's are yielding you good groups why bother!!!!!

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

skeeter 7mm...

so on some occasions that these ballistic tips break up on the shoulder?
my buddy have had the same problem. using 130gr. win ballistic tips.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Quilly- Almost all bullets will cause a lot of meat damage on shoulder shots.The sierra's are actually some of the worst for this.Shoot your deer in the lungs and don't worry about it.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

This reminds me of the ongoing debate between Elmer and Jack years ago. P.O. Ackely chimed in his views as well in a number of publications. O'Connor and Ackely always contended that it was the mark of an unethical slob hunter who wouldnt wait for a game animal to "pose" for them in the clear. Elmer's view was that any killing shot was a good one. Hence the argument over bullet size and design. Some of the requirements are dictated by the terrain a person hunts in. People who sit in little houses on open cut corn fields are faced with entirely different shot possiblilties than the guys who have to hunt in thick cover like clearcuts or swamps. Where I personally hunt, you wouldnt shoot very many deer if you waited for a broadside shot at the ribcage. Often times, the neck, back, or some other segment of a deer is all you will get a clear shot at. Seldom a view of the whole animal. If you can wait for a deer to pose in the wide open, then there is no chance that any style of bullet made wouldnt kill well on broadside lung shots. If you are faced with having to make shots from other angles where you might have to break a shoulder or the spine, or make a head on neck shot, then a bigger and tougher bullet makes sense. I use ballistic tips in my 338 for deer hunting because the 200 gr will penetrate enough even though it usually turns inside out. I have seen smaller ballistic tips fail to reach the vitals though on shots of angles such that a tougher bullet would have dropped that deer in its tracks. So, its true enough, that if you will always wait for that perfect broadside shot, the ballistic tip will kill every time. If you think you might have to shoot through some bone or lots of meat to get to the vitals, then I say use a heavier or tougher bullet.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Larry338-I have shot the 180-gr ballistic tip through the offside shoulder of a bull elk after passing through the chest and lungs so I wouldn't be worried about any deer shoulder stopping them.I have done the same with 140gr ballistic tips out of my 7mmstw on our large canadian bucks and they did exit.If they work on our deer they would not have any problems with the miniature deer in the south.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

the deer in maine are not that minature as you think.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Quilly-I was referring to the southern deer as in georgia where larry 338 is from.I realize the deer in the northern states are similar in size to our canadian deer.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Sure your 300's & 338 with those bolders will do it through the shoulder, but it ain't happening on a regular basis with a 270 and 130 gr. bullet. So Larry if I had to deal with that situation with my weapon and 130 Ballistic tip I would be eating tag soup before I attempted to place my shot in the shoulder, in the hopes I may find paydirt! A neck or spine I wouldn't think twice.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

One more thing few people realize about ballistic tips is that they have been changed several times over the years.The first ones were very soft but according to nosler they were toughened up several times especially in the larger calibers.I have used them since they came out in cartridges such as the 257wby and 7mmstw (which are very demanding on bullets due to the velocities they produce) and I have really noticed that the latest ones hold together better and penetrate much more than the early versions.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

stubblejumper, what would you suggest for a 7mm Rem mag for our whitetails. (Manufacturer, GR., etc )B/C I have decide on a 7mm Rem mag for my new rifle of choice for deer. My buddy only shoots 160 gr federal Sierra boat's out of his 7mm.

I don't profess to be a bullet wiz, like most of you, so I wouldn't mind some advise. I don't reload, I may get back into it...just to busy right now...so over the counter is what I will use for the next while.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

I guess these miniature southern deer must be alot tougher than those canadian giants. Heres a couple of examples of what I have personally seen that convinced me that a tougher bullet would have been in order. Last fall my girlfriend shot a small buck broadside, right in the center of the ribcage with a 150 gr ballistic tip at about 2800fps, that bullet hit a rib going in and exited in three pieces. Two years ago a friend shot a buck that field dressed just 150. He shot that deer in the lower neck as the deer faced him. He was using a 280 with 150gr ballistic tips also. The blood trail was very sparse for about 200 yds where he jumped the deer an hour after the shot. At that point he came and got me and we called a guy with a tracking dog and about 1am, six hours after shooting that buck the first time, we caught up with him and finished him off. I helped him skin that buck the next day, and that bullet had come completely unraveled before it got into the chest cavity.The direction and the angle of the wound cavity was headed right for the heart, but just never got past the brisket. Another guy in a club I was in shot a buck in the neck with a 270 using a 130 gr ballistic tip, that bullet flew apart when it hit the spine, the deer fell at the shot but before he got to it, it got back on its feet and was motoring away at a pretty good clip when he gutshot it running to finish that one.When we skinned that one, we found that the bullet had hit at somewhat of an angle and went through about four or five inches of meat before it hit the spine.There was only some jacket fragments at the end of the wound channel, and the vertebrae were not broken. Now, while its true that all of these bucks were killed, I still think a tougher bullet would have made the job alot easier. Im not trying to disuade anyone from using these bullets, I use them myself. All Im saying is that you need to bear in mind that they wont "always" penetrate very deep and are subject to come apart on bone or tough tissue occasionally. I have shot deer with them and had very good results as well, but they have not impressed me with consistency of performance. So no matter how many cases I hear of that experienced perfect performance on game, my own personal knowledge of the performance of these bullets remains unchanged.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Skeeter7mm-I only use one bullet for my 7mmstw and that is the 140gr ballistic tip.Driven at3500fps deer usually drop on the spot but do occaisionally make a few steps before falling.Out of thirty head or so taken with ballistic tips no animal has covered 50 yards after being hit so no tracking has been required.I take lung shots only but due to angles ,shoulders are sometimes hit resulting in more damage than desired but a dead deer nonetheless.Several friends also use ballistic tips in their 7mm mags with similar results.In all cases when lungshots are used the bullets almost always exit.With extreme angles and texas heart shots results may not be satisfactory with theses bullets and if you really want a bullet for these type of shots go with a premium such as the partition, failsafe or barnes x as no conventional bullet can be fully trusted in these situations.If you are prepared to pass up these shots ballistic tips will work fine.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

stubblejumper...

where i hunt these deer can come at any angle. i have no problem with taking a shot at a deer coming dead on in the neck. ( i have and used a win ballistic tip ). dropped like a sack of potatoes.the exit wound was that if a racket ball.
larry338...

my buddy had a simular problem. used a 130gr. and shot in the shoulder. took for ever to find that buck with a broken shoulder.

all in all them seem to be a good bullet but i am a guy who dosen't see that many deer like everyone esle who hunts on friends and there own land. i have to drive 3 hours to scout in maine. starting to cost me about $350.00 every weekend. so i think with my sierra gamekings 165gr. getting 1.080" groups will do. cause i would hate to finnal have that 18 pointer i have hunted for the past 5 years pop out and have the round ( might not do it )break on the shoulder or penetrate not enough to hit the vitals.
i truly beleive that the nosler ballistic tips and SST's are fine deer bullets but i think better suited for shots over 100yds. i seen the pic of PLLOPY's buck he took and the hole was enormous.
i bought some for my father this year and let's see how he does with them this year. and look at his experience with them.

i appreciate you all for your help. i think if i reloaded they would be alot better in my 35 whelen since it has more copper in the bullet than a smaller caliber like a 25 or 284.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

I share your sentiments Quilly, the chances of losing a buck because of bullet failure might be very slim, almost non existent, but there is a slight chance of it. My thoughts on this whole matter are that if you want to use soft bullets, you need to stay above about 160 gr for deer. Knowing the capabilities of your equipment and good shot placement are the keys to sucess. I have been criticized for hunting with a 338/06 because its "too much gun for deer" as they have told me. Well, I tend to want to prepare for the worst that might happen in hunting. For example a boone and crocket buck that is leaving the area and only offers me one shot from the rear. I sure as hell dont want a 243 in my hands if that ever happened. And in the final anylysis, I think that is one of the things that makes hunting interesting, you never know what is about to happen. I try to use the boyscout motto, be prepared. It makes me feel good to read stuff that people like you and stubblejumper and others here write that show they understand their equipment and have taken time to learn what it will do. Perhaps its more that you have paid enough attention to see what your equipment will do. So many seem to just blindly overlook the performance factor and trust that if they just hit a deer it will die. After all, even a 243 has a ton of muzzle energy and a deer only weighs 200 lbs! how could it not kill? Well, you and I know theres more to it than that.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

Call me crazy, but I plan on using 180gr Nosler Bullistic tip out of my 300RUM for analope and mulies. I wanted the Scirrocos to work so bad since, they have a high BC, and two they had extreame high wieght retention, three, they were affordable, compared to A-Frames and Bear Claws , but I can't get them to fly. Also, with that thick jacket, they show pressure signs alot faster than Nosler's or Sierras.
2" or more groups are the norm with Scirrocos at 100 yards with my 300RUM.

RE: stubblejumper or anyone (ballistic tips )
 

I had the same experience with my 280 Bigcountry, after last year I vowed to find a tougher bullet for that rifle. The scirocco bullets were among the ones I tried, but like you, about 2" groups was the best I could get it to do. I also tried failsafe, two weights of speer grand slams, nosler partitions,barnes x and all the 160 grain bullets of regular construction. That rifle was pissing me off! It would shoot 150 grain ballistic tips into little biddy groups and everything else into patterns. I shot it in the walnut stock and also in a brown precision synthetic bedded free floated and with forearm contact in both. After all that I noticed that it shot slightly better with forearm contact and I went back and put about 8 lbs of upward pressure in the forearm bedding. Eureka! Now it will shoot sub moa with 140 gr barnes x bullets over 57 gr of AA 3100 or with 54 gr of reloader 22. I have been shooting a group or two every now and then all summer and have now shot about 50 shots with that load and its still averaging just under moa. The scirocco bullets still wont shoot well in it though. All this bs took me six months and cost about 400$ for bullets, but at least now I have the load I want. I cant imagine that you will have any trouble with the 180 gr bullets though, they should have plenty of mass to get on into the boiler room of even a large mule deer. Thats the good thing about ballistic tips, they are about the most accurate bullet available in alot of calibers and weights. I just wish they would stick together a little better. When barnes first came out with the x bullets, I had three rifles that would shoot them as good as anything Ive ever had, then about 1994 they redisigned the x and those same rifles would shoot consistent 4 to 5" groups. Barnes has since started making the x again without the secant ogive and I am getting usable accuracy again with the 7mm 140 gr and the .338 185 gr. My .338/06 will still shoot ballistic tips better than anything though, several times I have shot five shot groups with it in the 1/2" range. It will average about .9 inches with them. But the x bullet is the most consistent performer and the damnest killer I have ever seen. Well, I didnt mean to write a book here, just on my lunch break and this is something that I like to talk about.