RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

So a poorly placed shot with a 300 Win Mag is ok just because the caliber is bigger? I would rather be shot in the head with a .22 than in the gut with a .308.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Good for you,My Dad commited suicide 4 years ago .He shot him self in the head with 22 magnum and laid in hospital for 4 days before he died.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

These threads!! I usually don't respond to threads like this, but I just got to say a few things. Top 10 reasons not to use a .204 on deer...even on the sholder!

1. .204 will be statistically be a crap shoot on the sholder, ballistics calculators show very little TKO, very little mass, very little stored energy, so selecting it for deer is showing stupidity.

2. Ethics be damned. Regulations in multiple states disallow anything in .22 cal on down, some 6mm on down. SO IT IS ILLEGAL, and I believe it Maryland too. Check with your F&G Dept.

3. I am not a big bowhunting fan and I begrudgingly support this type of hunting (in my mind it is wounding) because there is at least some stored energy in weight the arrow, and SHARP broadheads that slice cleanly. That being said, in Kansas there are a lot of arrowed deer that die a horrible death, just as there are deer that die in Kansas after being shot with a .22 and the .22 is illegal on big game in Kansas.

4. It is big Game, use a bigger bullet.

5. Deer are a shared resource. They belong to the "people" not to the "hunters". It is the height of hubris to just take a shot at a deer "to see if you can". It shows little respect for the animal you are "hunting", and little respect for the sport of "hunting" as practiced by an individual.

6. Killing animals wholesale for herd control, use a .44 mag, 30-30, .308. Don't need flat shooting in this application, just theTKO needed and all these are fine in the less than 100 yds.

7. Gun nuts like more guns and need more situations to buy more guns. If you need an all around, get an all around gun. Don't limit yourself to owning just a .204.

8. 4,000 fps velocity does not give the bullet magical properties

9. How do you find those little bullets in the dark?

10. If you go deer hunting and you are gone for a long time, you had better bring something tangible home or the wife will be very upset, the .204 will lower your odds for taking the deer and increase your odds for domestic hell. WHY WOULD YOU USE IT?

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

jcb9901, with the deepest respect I am sorry to hear that.
There have been cases where folks have been shot in the head with .357 Mags and lived to talk about it.

The small calibers are illegal in MD, oops I broke the law once guess I am damned. The supressed 60 grain 22 deal is setup by the state to control game in populated areas and therefore is legal with proper premission. The whole communist "the deer are for the people" BS is out the window for me unless you would like to start compensating me for the damages caused by "your" deer on my property. I don't know a person that hasn't hit at least one deer with their car or truck, you think that kills the deer cleanly? Again if I had the choice between being ran over to death or being shot with a small caliber in the head, give me the head shot please. My insurance is higher because of it and the only thing my wife bitches about is her plants and garden getting eaten up, and her car getting smashed. Please READ the prior posts, I am not selecting the small calibers for regular deer hunting, it was done once as a live ballistic experiment, I use a .270 about 99.9% of the time for deer (yes I live in a rifle legal county in MD) I am not telling people to buy a small bore / high velocity round for deer hunting, I am simply answering the question asked and defending myself against persecution for being honest.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

YOU missed multiple points, that I made and are valid. And yes, deer are not yours. If you don't like the damage....MOVE. People can't kill bears just because of the damage, they have to be threatened or the bear has to be a hazard.

SO your "communist" remark is running backwards to wildlife management tenents, and conservation efforts.

We are talking here about "intentional" interaction with a deer, not some car accident. I know few people who intentionally "hunt" a deer with an automobile, and the odds are not good of getting a clean kill with that either. But to bring deer accidents into this discussion to defend a bad practice is not a wise tactic for debate.

Using a .204 for a deer is a bad practice and a bad suggestion.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

MarkIIVT I do not deny that you made multiple good points and I do not condone deer hunting with illegal calibers or suggest it. I do not "practice" killing deer with illegal calibers, just performed one test.

About moving: Do not get me wrong, I do not like this state for many reasons but I am forced to live here at least part time for now. There wasn't a population problem in this state 15 years ago, but the wildlife management tenents obviously didn't do their job, so now there is a deer density that rivals almost anywhere in the country for #1 in over population. Bears are a different species with different population densities within the state and I do not condone shooting them on site like some may, it is not wise to bring a different species into this discussion to defend your liberal views. I do agree with you that there is a cutoff where a caliber is not suited for deer, what are you displeased with? The fact that I used a small caliber once to kill a deer?

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

IMO not big enough.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

TKO numbers are a farse! These are just made up equasions to suit someones perspective on what a big bullet is suppose to do. Do a TKO number on a knife and tell me what you come up with. Not much of a number huh? tell me a knife wont kill.
You'd be surprised on what velocity does, it will punch a tiny 50 gr bullet through steel that a 180 gr bullet out of a 30-06 cant do. Your non-sense on bow hunting really ticks me off. Keep it up and once you ban bowhunting your rifle season will be next.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

NO!

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

The TKO numbers are certainly no more of a Farse than your idea that velocity alone is the kill all answer. It is not. Its only a small part of the equation. The TKO is made up of bullet weight, bullet size and velocity. That is a much more firm base to eveluate killing or knock down power. If anyone uses the 204 in the sataes that I hunt, you are breaking the law and thats all there is to that. If its legal where you hunt and you don't have a better gun for deer then I quess you can go for it. I can't say strong enough ( as was said above) Wildlife was not put here for us to experiment on minumum ways to kill them. 22 centerfires 222 and bigger are allowed where I hunt. If I had my way, 25 caliber would be the minimum. However the guys using the 22 centerfires in our state are at least legal.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Its a made up equasion using the size of the bullet to make big guns have a big TKO number. has nothing to do with anything. if I was some big whig magazine editor on guns I could make one up to, ya lets say
velocity divided by bullet diameter divided by inches of drop.
The one with the bigger number is a more proficient killer.
jeeez, (shakes his head and walks away)

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Its made up of bullet size in fractions of an inch, the weiths of the bullet in grains and the velocity of the bullet. The theory wont kill a thing unless you roll it up and swat a fly with it. It is and has been for many years, a way to compare one caliber or bullet size to another. No more or less tham comparing fps or lbs or m. e. Nobody I know is trying to belittle smaller cartridges by refering to TKO. All bullets would have a TKO however that alone means very little by its self No bullet weighting 2000 grains at a velocity of 50 fps is going to have much killing power. No bullet weighing 2 grains traveling at 10000 fps is going to either. Its when you combine sufficent bullet weight size and velocity that you get killing power or TKO or ME. You can't seperate the parts and come up with the whole.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Yep, the .204 will kill a deer, you can also pound a nail with a screw driver but it does tell somthing about ones I.Q. if they do so. Use the proper tool for the job and for deer hunting the .204 is not the right tool. I run into lots of people who want to see what is the smallest caliber they can use to kill deer. I think it is an ego problem. Lets look at this from a different view for a second. If you had to hunt from the ground, no tree stands, and deer had fangs and claws, and getting wounded tended to really piss them off and made them want to eat you, would you still want to use something like a .204? If a person is a conscious hunter then they use a cartridge which will ensure a clean kill and give a reasonable margin for error if things do not work out quite right.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Is the .204 big enough for Whitetail? NO!
Neither are ANY of the .22's, from .22 short, on up to the .222 Swift! They are just not deer calibers! For those that are just "experimenting," or looking for a "challenge," why not just try a CO2 BB pistol! As others have said, "you can kill a deer with a screwdriver!"
While it is true that deer are not really that hard to kill, have a LITTLE respect for the fine game animals that Whitetail deer are! And if not for that, for the sake of the sport! There are anti's looking for ANY reason to get hunting banned! Why give them ANY ammo to use against us????!!!!!!

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Gawd, you guys are wearing me out. Ditto to most everything MarkIIVT said.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

John Taylor, an african big game hunter made this formula up, Not Einstein, not Isacc Newton, John taylor... and he is who...... a nobody. This is his theory, its got nothing to do with physics whatsoever, FPS is actual physics, Energy is actual physics , TKO is nothing, just a theory made up by a nobody. Big Big difference.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Yea. Right!!!! I am going for my overboots. Take your high velocity 204 and go on a polar bear hunt. Good Luck. I doubt your velocity theory will impress him much.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

I sure hope that the original question was posted in jest.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

James if your gonna say its not big enough, say something like it aing got enough energy, or its bullet is too small to create a big enough wound channel or the small bullet will probably fragmentate and not do the damage needed. Dont tell me it's not got enough TKO, what the heck is that. A TKO number of 10 is what ? 10 inches of wound ? nope. 10 lbs of flesh destroyed ? nope. 10 steps a deer will take before it dies ? Nope. 10 what then ? Understand what I am getting at. Its a made up formula, nothing physical like FPS or Energy.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

We are in the prescence of brilliance!!! Who says a wall never talks back....some even know everything!!

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

.44 Magnum 240 gr. slug at 1400 fps : .430 X 240 X 1400
divided by 7000 = 20.6 Knock Out (KO)

.270 Winchester 130 gr. slug at 3100 fps : .277 X 130 X
3100 divided by 7000 = 15.9 KO

I guess you guys should throw away your .270's because a 44 mag is a better gun. Buwhahahahaha ! What a bunch of bunk !

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

You can't get it through your head that the TKO or any other theory is not the whole picture. It a way to compare the same stats from one caliber to the next. Many Many Many other things enter in to the final kill. If you are comparing a 45-70 to a 458 Lott to a 416 Rigby then the TKO would be a good measure. If you are comparing a 22 hornet to a 460 Weatherby then that would be a poor comparison. Yhere is absolutely no way to fairly compare extreme calibers to each other using any theory of the kill. I shoot calibers from 223 to 45-70 and have owned almost all the big magnums. They each have a slot to fill and I rate mine from expierence not from any theory that I have ever seen.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

In the past, james and I have had our go arounds but he is right here!!!! I do not care if you go by Taylor knock out value (TKO) or what have you, you use the right tool for the job and that is not a .204 or any .224 for deer! Deer hunting is not an eggo contest to see who can kill a deer with the smallest needle blower. Nor should the cartridge you choose be a inflater to your eggo the Idea is for a cleen kill not bragging rights for using the lightest powered cartridge. Killing a deer is not the chalange it is getting to the point where we have the shot with which we can put our game on the ground. Using a small or weak cartridge is not part of this chalange. If a person can not handle a rifle of approprate power for deer hunting then they should not hunt. If a person is not willing to put in the time to learn how and when to shoot then maby they should take up another hobby.
Deer hunting is not target shooting somthing is giong to bleed and die so use enough gun to make it quick and clean. Sure the pipsqueeks can do it but defication happens so use enough gun to be humain when this stuff occures.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

you can keep it in your picture but it aint in any part of mine. Its a total farse. second I'm not recomending the .204, I have never said that . Were discussing using the TKO value to determine if a gun should be used or not. TKO is bunk. I wouldnt ever use that bogus theory. Energy is physical facts. Velocity is physical facts. This I would use and consider.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Something is BUNK alright but it not the TKO. Good luck. you will need it.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

check out this link. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

I will agree with you in that the TKO is not perfect but that is where it ends!!!! The .404 and the over blown .300 Ultra have close to the same energy, which would you rather shoot a Cape Buff with? If you pick the Ultra then you are a fool!!! Energy is no more a factor then the TKO value. In reality there is no formula that works out for all calibers but even so there is a lot to be said for the TKO idea. If all you have hunted is deer and North American critters then do not put the TKO down all you are proving is ignorence!

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

zrex,

That's an interesting link you provided to some VERY interesting and enlightening analysis on terminal ballistics based on real science, not trumped up pseudo-scientific jibberish.

But I also see that you mentioned much earlier on that you know others who use .224cals with success (the .22 Hornet is what you mentioned I believe), and regularly take head and neck shots, so I suggest that you read the entire article, including the section where your cited author condemns the use of .224cal rifles for deer hunting and even questions the wisdom of using the .243.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...s/methods.html

Scroll down to Section 5 on this page to see what he thinks about this perticular topic.

Mike

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

A 35 grain ballistic tip from a 204 is designed to frag on impact which is great for varmints but on a deer I think the bullet would stop in its shoulder and not penetrate deep enough to fatally wound the deer. Also most states require at the minimum that a bullet be 60 grains or heavier that produces atleast 1000 ft lbs at the muzzle to be legal and /or ethical for deer.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

But in some cases I dont think that is correct but they do it because it covers a wider margin of minimum calibers. Why i dont think that is a correct way to lay the law for limiting calibers for deer hunting is because I have killed a few deer with pistol calibers the 357 mag with a 158 grain hornady XTP which has about 500 lbs of muzzle energy, The 45 ACP with a 185 grain barnes XPB which has about 400 lbs of muzzle energy and a 45 long colt with a speer 260 grain JHP which has about 500 lbs of muzzle energy which have proved to be fine on deer and had plenty of penetration but ofcourse all the shots were less then 50 yards. I think it come down to this on larger calibers the muzzle energy doesnt play as big of a role as it does in smaller calibers as Jeff Cooper always said " You cannot replace bullet mass with velocity" basically that means just because a .223 has the same muzzle energy as a 44 magnum it doesnt mean the 223 is just as powerful as the 44 mag the 44 mag is a proven deer caliber time and time again but the 223 is very doubtful as being suited for deer.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

I read that, it was one of the first things I read. he dont care much for the .243 as do many here. I love it, never had any problems but then again here in texas our deer rarely get over a 150 lbs, maybe that has something to do with it.
What i couldnt understand is he complains about lack of penetration with the .223 and .243 and small calibers in general, but then shows in his chart 10.5 in. of penetration for the .223 and 13" for the .243. those numbers are comparibale to some of the bigger guns. bullet selection and velocity seem to be a deciding factor on penetration. theres one bullet fired from the .7 mag that only got 9 inches of penetration. Seems the slower the bullet the more penetration. Pretty wierd huh ? but then shows that higher velocity's with a descent bullet leave bigger wound chanels and cavitation. So it's a toss up on what you want to do I guess.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

markIIvt
bow hunting wounding is a bunch of nosence if you have
hunters that shoot more than 3 arrows the day before sesone
I have killed many deer with my bow but i practice yr
around to compettive shooting no my limitations
and havent lost one yet
also i bet there is more deer wounded with ppl that think they need
a big mag powerd rifle to kill a deer than with a bow
i mean what did they in 1800 to kill animals and hand made bows
and arrows and they killed up to bisen so
i think bowhunting is wounding is ppl the dontknow the sport
as with anything humans are not perfect u will make a mistake sometime
wether it be a bow or a rocket laucher
your own words show respect for the sport

as for the 204 i dont think it would in the shoulder
but thats my opion

sorry to hear bout the suiside thats sucks


ppl like expermenting why dont someone try to kill a deer
with your kids old bb gun aim for

as for the ppl that think the 243 is minimal GOOD
i want minimal that will humanly kill a deer
no wasted meat
the mag crase whats up with that why dont we gernads
fire shooters save time on looking for both halfs

soory for getting off the subject

happy and save hunting

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

Good link and like the writer said "When selecting a 22 cal for big game the question is why?" Good question. One problem with the .22 cal and such, even the bigger stuff is that you must have proper bullet construction for the game you are hunting. Most if not all .22 cal ammo is loaded for varmint type stuff, not deer. As a result of this you get bullet blow up, not penitration. Momentum has to be figured into this for good penitration and it aint going to work with a .22 with the powders we have!!!
Look at a 150 grain 3006 for example, for a 55 grain bullet to equal the 06 momentum then all we have to do is get a bullet properly constructed and push it at 9,500 FPS! Not bad huh, but what a wood chuck masher. This info and much more is to be found in the book Understanding Ballistics by Robert A. Rinker, a good read and the math is made simple enough for me so check it out. Well worth the money no matter where you stand on this issue.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

I have seen that a lot of you gentelmen have posted their interpiation of Maryland Law on the subject of minimun,s reguarding cal. and other sidewalk lawyer quotes so I just want to add that Maryland Law requires the Rifle use for taking deer in Md has to develop a muzzle energy of 1200 fp and the 304 with the 32 gr. bullet is 1268 and the40 gr. is 13??

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

The velocity and penetration make sense. The more velocity you have the more expansion you get. The more expansion you get, the less penetration you get. This holds true even more when you are looking and light bullets per caliber. Sectional density is the bullets ability to hold together and continue to penetrat. Add Momentum and you get an idea of why some bullets and or calber size are more effective. With weight comes momentu. Its harder to stop a freight train than honda. When you add velocity and a fast twist rate then you really put pressure on the bullet and at some point or speed the bullet will fail. The less sectional density, the sooner it will fail. Reading on the Corbon site and or other sites talking about even cast bullets. A 45-70 bullet of 400 or so grains will penetrat further when fired at 1700 fps than the same bullet will if fired at 2000 fps. Expansion and the bullets inability to hold a staight path will limit its penetration. Put a heavier bullet in a 375 H&H then slow it down and you get much better penetration. Velocity is important but it has its usefull limits. Bullet construction is important but you have to have momentum. It all works together.

RE: Is the Ruger 204 Big enough for Whitetail
 

i personally woulf not use it for deer.

.204 ruger
 

A first time poster comes in, revives a nearly 16 year old thread to:

1) Confuse “22 caliber” with “Rimfire” and neglect the dozens of 22 caliber centerfire cartridges on the market...

2) Exaggerate a fabrication where a 204 Ruger went end for end in a whitetail, AND blew the eye out of its head, nearly 2 feet away from point of entry.

3) Fabricate an tale of a 43 grain 20 cal bullet (the only 43grain bullet offered at all at midway is the 22cal Speer TNT - I’ve never seen a 43grn 20cal in 15 years with the 204 Ruger and 20 Prac).

4) Dramatically exaggerate the potential velocity of said bullet, by about 200-250 fps faster than I have ever been able to push a 40 grain bullet in 204R.

At least the avatar screen name is fitting.

WTF is going on around here lately? Trolls and bots abound, but the same search accessibility doesn’t yield new REAL users?

NO. It's not IMO.

.243win would be my bottom, 80grs TSX type bullet.

Since someone decided to revive a thread that was started when G. Bush II was still president, I'll chime in.

A 70gr 5.56mm Barnes TSX will kill a whitetail dead as hell. I've also had Speer tech department tell me that they feel their 75gr gold dot is perfectly fine for deer as long as the impact energy is 1000fpe +

YMMV