New caliber from remington
 

I just got my new guns and ammo and remington is trying to make a new round for the military. It is a .30 remington taking a .277 bullet. They are calling it a 6.8 SPC.It was designed to be fired from an AR-15 rifle.2650 fps from a 16 ni. barrel and 2800 from a 24 in barrel.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

It is suppose to replace the .223 as the standard military round sometime in the near future.

About time they went back to a real round for shooting people.;)

RE: New caliber from remington
 

They had a very good round for that purpose once(.308), the rifle it was chambered in just needed some tweaking.(m14)

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Yeah, I know. They also had the 30-06 too. That's why I said "back to a real round".;)

I never have understood the thinking of using the .223 for military applications. I know why they said they went to it. Wounding a person removes two people from the line and a person can carry more ammo. But I still never got it. They still can shoot a gun if they're wounded. I would rather have them dead if they were shooting at me. I never got that whole FMJ crap either.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

I think that using anything other than FMJ ammo is a violation of Art. 23e of the Annex to Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 18 October 1907. The USA is not actually bound by this document but has always as a matter of principle adhered to it. It was an attempt by countries to stop the use of soft rapidly expanding bullets that caused huge numbers of limb amputations in prior wars.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

I don't about the rest of you ,But I have seen what a 5.56 will do. It ain't nice.Yeah the .308 is a better round but don't knock that little bee that is stinging your a$$.Had you rather have 100 rounds of .308 and a 12 lb. rifle or 500 rounds of 5.56 and a 4 lb. rifle.( weights are just approximate so don't get nit -picky):D;)

RE: New caliber from remington
 

I was thinking about a single shot chambering using a 30-30 case and a .277 bullet (270/30-30) when I saw the new Rem. 6.8 round.
I'm still thinking about a 270/30-30 for a singleshot.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Well hopefully they will get around to adopting a better rifle and round. The M-16 was and still is the biggest P.O.S. and round adopted by the U.S. Military. From the early versions of the Mattel Jam O Matic that couldn't keep bullets in a 8" circle at 100yards to the brilliant carbine version issued to the poor service guys in Samollia and the poor performance of the 223 out of a short barrel carbine ( a marginal round to begin without going to a short barrel)
Say what you want , but we need a good battlefield weapon and that includes handguns. Beretta is a fine firearm but falls short in the field, let's bring back the 45 acp in a 1911 style. Let's face it they've improved on the original. Let our supposed "friends" in NATO and U.N. adopt our ordinance not the other way around.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Actually there is nothing in the works to change from the 5.56mm as the standard issue cartridge. The 6.8 was developed for use by the special forces for use in urban warfare situations. Unfortunately the 5.56 will be around for awhile longer and so will the overrated M-16.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Wouldnt this be a great round for the contender with a 14 in. barrel . They say this round was developed by the men on the frontline. The bullet for it is a 115 gr. and was designed to expand at low velocities with managed recoil. What a great pistol round.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Seriously i dont know what was wrong with the 308 as a military round.....if it is recoil, come on these guys are who the rest of us are supposed to look up to and respect they should be able to shoot a 308, my dad carried a M1 in 30-06 and a 45(which if im right they dont use either anymore!) whats the deal????!!!

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Swampdog hit it right on the head, space and weight is what they're looking at doday.
Polack

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There was something on the history channel once. They compared the M16 to the AK-47. As far as power, the AK seemed to be stronger, penetrating wood and cinderblocks a lot better. But the m16 was more accurate.

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The USA are supposed to abide by the Hague agreement of 1907 only if the opposing forces also signed it.
In this day and age, the he!! with The Hague.
Spec.ops and close quarter fighting is done with something that will put the enemy down quickly and for good.
Were did the concept of wounding come from in the time of war.
Some desk rider must of thought that up.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

From my under standing the 6.8 is just to be isued to spical forces.
but the armey is looking at up grading the 5.56.
from some of my books theas are some posibiltys 5.56 with heaver bullets the 77gr is all ready in use by some units. but they are looking at the posibilty of going up to 100gr.
a 6mmx56 a new disined 6.5 and 30 cal.

they all have inhansed capibiltys but as a stop gap the 5.56 in a heaver gr or the 6x56 would be the cheapes option by far.
with juts a riffling rate change with the heaver bullits and a barral change with the 6.56.

as a side note the 6.8mm is verry close to what the brits wonted to use when we talked them in to going with the 308. i think it was called 270 ross or some thing like that.

the army does use ammo that is not fmj btw the mach king hp are used in sniping.

but the maine disine of the bullet is not to expend evan thought it does.

the yaw in some fmj do actualy brake up in to fragments but does not tencanly 'expand."
or at least its not the primary fuction of the bullet.

some of our aversary or past aversarys used hollow cavateys in the fmj to ficilate brake up and yaw.

from my reading on the subject and from test the "cert" team did i have come up with the conclusion that the lighter 55 gr fmj when they were barraly stablised by the riffling in early test proved to be more conducive to brake up and more boady dammage.

but the new twest rates are have some bad efects with stoping power "brake up"

the newer heavy loads for the 5.56 are more accert and have better pineration. but they are a little lacking in the yaw reducing the brake up efect.

with out the yaw you need weight and dimater to stop some one.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

The Army is currently testing a new replacement for the M4 ,and the M16 both . Its still being tested at Fort Benning ,Ga . Its called the MX8 and was developed by Hechler & koch Defense Inc. They were also testing the new polymer cased ammo to replace the brass rounds . I read this in the Army times .

RE: New caliber from remington
 

The M16 is a much better weapon then the MX8. The Marine Corps has already said no thanks to it. I can't believ they want to issue a weapon with no iron sights and depend on glass optics only! [:'(]

RE: New caliber from remington
 

The test is over. The M8 will start to be issued to Army units sometime in FY2005. It is chambered for 5.56mm. H&K's website has a pretty good section on all the particulars for this weapon. The primary sight system is optical, but back-up iron sights are mounted as well.
The 6.8mm Rem SPC was developed by Remington based on a request and input from USASOC and the AMU at Ft Benning. Dept. of the Army has made no formal decision on wide scale introduction of this round.
I completely agree with the Beretta M9 comment. Based on my experiences with the M9 (Including being hit in the head with a slide) I will not own Beretta ANYTHING. .45 is the way to go - why have 15 maybe's in a magazine when you can have 7 definitely's. Case in point: Most operators (both US and ally) carry .45's or .40S&W.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Gah!

Why don't we go back to 45-70's in trapdoor springfields, everyone knows that smaller rifle calibers are for sissies and won't stop a drugged up cannibal warrior from the phillipino jungles! The trapdoor is a much simpler rifle than the M16, m14, M1, 1903, and Krag rifles so there is less worry about finding dead soldiers with a jammed up gun!

For handguns lets go back to the Colt SAA. If the 1911 with 7 shots is better than the beretta with 15 because the .45 auto is more powerful, then logically 6 shots from a much more powerful Colt SAA should be superior to the 1911!

Naturally, the higher costs of the hundreds of tons of additional lead, brass, and powder can be picked up through donations from the armchair warriors who don't want to see progress in our military's technology.:)

RE: New caliber from remington
 

If you don't want a slide to hit you in the head, then don't drop it on your head. Beretta has been in business for over 400 years- businesses don't stay around that long with a reputation of making junk. If most operators carried a tomahawk axe, should they be issued to every other military personel? 40S&W? Have you been playing too many video games? I'm calling BS on this one.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Briman the 45 is better than a 9mm.

I have been shot with a 9mm it went through my chest from the side and in to my upper left arm.

I was still on my feet and in the fight.
The 9mm does not inpress me in the least as a fight stoper.

BTW the 45 colt in a SAA is about equal to a 45acp not way above it in power.

The 5.56 is and avance in arms to some people in some other peoples eyes it was a mistake.

I persionaly belieave the 5.56 with the right loads are cappable arms.

but i will tell you this if i was in a room with some one that was trying to kill me and had only one round of ammo with the choices being the trap door or the m-16 i would take the trap door. Any day

There are a lot of factors on how fmj bullest stop people.
the twist in the riffling and the yaw disined in to the projectile or the lack of yaw in it all has to do with how good of a stoper it is.

Some of the so called experts have said that the new m-16 and the heaver bullets its disined to take over stablise the bullet.
So there is less yaw "tumbling" in pass through.
a pinciel strate hole made by the 5.56 would not be as effective a stoper as a5.56 that yaws and come out sideways.

Any way there is more to the stoping than the cal. the bulliet and shot placement has alot to do with it.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

I was hit in the head from a slide that had broken off the frame from the recoil. Many of the M9's that were initially bought from Beretta had cracks in the frames that allowed things like that to happen. I was lucky - one Soldier died when his M9 self-destructed and took him with it.

As far as the arm-chair warrior cheap shot: I have been in the army for 19 years. I am an 11B4V5W. I'm stationed at Ft Bragg. Have deployed to Just Cause, Desert Shield/Storm, OEF and OIF. When's the last time YOU returned fire for God and Country?

No BS on the .40 S&W. Most carry .45, but some were carrying the .40 in Iraq the last time I was there in 2003.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

(Wouldnt this be a great round for the contender with a 14 in. barrel .)



Yep, I think so. Rimless cases will work in the Contender/Encore EI; 35 rem. 223, I think tho that the rimmed case makes for better extraction in the Contender hence my original thoughts on a 270/30-30

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Once again BS.

The M9's didn't have cracks in them and the slides only broke when used with ammunition that was out of spec and of way too high pressure. If you put 50,000 psi ammo through a 1911 rest assured, bad things will happen as well. There were only a few documented cases of slides breaking on M9s and most of them during tests. The whole m9-slide-breaking-and-hitting-me-in-the-face scenario should be listed on Snopes under urban myths and legends.

BTW I shoot a beretta 92FS competitively. I have had it explode on me from a double charge of powder, I was completely unscathed by the accident, and my pistol survived as well- just had to remove the right grip panel, reinstall the trigger bar, then screw the grip panel back on. I've seen double charges completely destroy 1911s.

http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/lfnv/92fpistl.txt

RE: New caliber from remington
 

You can call BS all day. I can only tell you what happened to me. As for the Soldier that died, I'm sure that report made his family feel much better.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

I hear ya abnhunter,I was a 11 bush baby myself.;) was with the 173rd abn brgde ,75th inf. ,75th rngr bat.When I had to stay at Bragg I lived in Spring lake (back in '72.) Use to stay at the drag strip all I could then.BTW Ain't no 11 bang bang ever been no arm chair warrior.They don't just give away that blue braid or that little chunk of silver either!! FOLLOW ME!

RE: New caliber from remington
 

The 6.8 is NOT intended to replace the 5.56mm NATO as our standard infantry round. (Even if it SHOULD!!) It is intended, at least at this time, as a special purpose round to be issued to special operations forces, not every GI who needs a rifle. Indeed, there are a lot of influential military folks who have yet to be convinced of the need for this round, which is going to at least cause a little more confusion for the logisticians (many of whom are plenty confused enough already!!)

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Well, what you're talking about already exists, plus .006" in diameter, anyway! It's called the 7-30 Waters!

RE: New caliber from remington
 

We have forced NATO to adopt our rifle cartridges twice. First the .308 (7.62X51 NATO) and then the .223 (5.56mm NATO). At the time we adopted the 9mm, it was to keep the NATO folks from bitching too much about the change from 7.62 to 5.56mm, after most of them had just got finished buying the 7.62 rifles! At the time, we had a lot of geniuses in charge who thought of the service pistol as a "badge of office" rather than a useful battlefield weapon. Well, Iraq and Afghanistan have changed this line of thinking, and a lot of special ops people (and others) have gone back to the .45 ACP, which we should never have abandoned in the first place.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

did't the Brits have an issue tomahawk duing WWII? I'm sure some allied country did.

RE: New caliber from remington
 

Hooah, Swampdog. Spring Lake hasn't changed too much. Oh - something else we have in common: I'm originally from Martinsville, just up the road from ye.

As for pistols - my line dogs are going to carry a 9mm, regardless of what they think about the cartridge. Those that can carry something else (Operators and the like) will carry something else. H&K USP's in .45 were pretty common with those jokers.

I'd like to see 6.8mm, but as I said in an earlier post, Dept of the Army hasn't made a decision on it yet. Special Operations Command is really driving the train on this one. One of the problems we ran into in Afghanistan was stopping power at range. The M855/856 5.56 sometimes wasn't enough. Which is why the M14 was brought back. Now Infantry branch wants each platoon to have what they're calling a "Designated Marksman." Hafta wait and see on that one. Y'all know that long range shooting is a lot different than room clearing. I haven't seen a program of instruction for it yet; If one doesn't show up soon, I'll dig out all my stuff from sniper school and bump heads with the 1SG and see what we can figure out.